best black bear caliber for a youth



[/quote]If that was my guide I would have to disagree. With bears there is always the risk of needing a quick follow up shot. I have never seen a safety situation with deer follow ups. [/quote]

That's a good point with bears...not just because one might get up and come after you {safety}, the chances of that are not too much to worry about. But because from what I have seen a black bear is easy to knock down but sometimes hard to keep down. On my first hunt the guide told us "as soon as you shoot, get another round in the chamber and get him back in your crosshairs." Someone asked why and he said " you want to be on him and ready in case he tries to get back up." Sure enough, of the 9 guys at that bear camp 7 had their bears get up. All died and from what I saw would have died anyway without a follow up shot, but why have to track an animal that is known to leave poor blood trails?? Now before all you guys jump on this thread with the "it's a matter of proper bullet placement whether or not they get up...hit 'em right and they ain't going nowhere, yadda, yadda, yadda. I hit mine right between the eyes...I wasn't one of the 7. Many times when you are hunting you just don't get that ideal shot. The one bear that we never found was hit in the neck and dropped immediately, only to get back on his feet and never be seen again.
As to the rifle...you might want to think about future hunts too. I personally like the 7mm-08 or the 260. If your next hunt might be to Alaska for a griz...they might not be the gun to buy.
 
20ga with hornady sst slugs, 338 federal, 284 win are all short action/youth compatible choices that make no excuses as far as stopping game.
And 308. Or 30-30, 35 rem, 444 levers.
The twenty may be a simple barrel swap, the 338fed and 284 would work well on game up to elk. (He wants to elk hunt, he just hasn't mentioned it yet!)
I've been trying out all of these calibers for my grandson. Of course, every time I buy him a new gun my wife says,"He's only 2 years old." LOL, He's a well-armed 2 year old!
Good luck and update us!
 
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Originally Posted By: msinc

If that was my guide I would have to disagree. With bears there is always the risk of needing a quick follow up shot. I have never seen a safety situation with deer follow ups. [/quote]

That's a good point with bears...not just because one might get up and come after you {safety}, the chances of that are not too much to worry about. But because from what I have seen a black bear is easy to knock down but sometimes hard to keep down. On my first hunt the guide told us "as soon as you shoot, get another round in the chamber and get him back in your crosshairs." Someone asked why and he said " you want to be on him and ready in case he tries to get back up." Sure enough, of the 9 guys at that bear camp 7 had their bears get up. All died and from what I saw would have died anyway without a follow up shot, but why have to track an animal that is known to leave poor blood trails?? Now before all you guys jump on this thread with the "it's a matter of proper bullet placement whether or not they get up...hit 'em right and they ain't going nowhere, yadda, yadda, yadda. I hit mine right between the eyes...I wasn't one of the 7. Many times when you are hunting you just don't get that ideal shot. The one bear that we never found was hit in the neck and dropped immediately, only to get back on his feet and never be seen again.
As to the rifle...you might want to think about future hunts too. I personally like the 7mm-08 or the 260. If your next hunt might be to Alaska for a griz...they might not be the gun to buy. [/quote]





The last blackie I harvested I shot with my 300 ultra. I used a 200 grain partition I loaded at noslers max recommendations. I shot him out of a tree stand at 30 yards over bait. I hit the 350lb boar 2" behind the front shoulder. The bear was perfectly broadside(I double lunged him). The bear did a backwards summer salt after the shot got up and trotted away. He made it about 30 to 40 yards and started the "death moan" banging around in the brush. That guy made 7 big roars before he expired. There wasn't any blood for about 15 yards after the shot. The Hyde had bullet diameter holes in and out, but when I skinned it there was about a 7" diameter hole inside on the exit side of the rib cage that i could fit both my hands in. I shot him the last couple minutes legal shooting hours and I could tell u my butt was puckered going in with a flashlight to find him.


heres the post with a pic of the bear...

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/for...5849&page=1
 
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Originally Posted By: msinc

Quote:If that was my guide I would have to disagree. With bears there is always the risk of needing a quick follow up shot. I have never seen a safety situation with deer follow ups.

That's a good point with bears...not just because one might get up and come after you {safety}, the chances of that are not too much to worry about.


Not trying to start a pissing match but, I'm pretty sure there are at least a few bear hunters in the world would disagree with you... This one happened right up the road from me about 30 miles or so, 2 years ago. While no one ever got hurt back when I was hunting them down here, there were a few iffy situations. Had it not been for the dogs a time or two, things might have been different.


Quote:
Updated: 4:11 p.m. Friday, Oct. 7, 2011 | Posted: 10:56 a.m. Friday, Oct. 7, 2011

Bear attacks hunter in south Georgia


By Mike Morris

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution


A Florida man has been released from the hospital after being severely bitten by a 350-pound black bear while hunting in south Georgia, authorities said.

Mitch Canady was among a group of hunters "actively pursuing the bear with hounds" when the incident occurred Saturday near Suwannoochee Creek in Clinch County, Georgia Department of Natural Resources spokesman Rick Lavender told the AJC.

"One hunter shot the bear twice with buckshot, striking the animal," Lavender said.

"The shooter and victim approached the bear and it was shot again," Lavender said. "As they approached even closer, a hound flushed the bear in the direction of the hunters and the bear knocked the victim to the ground."

Lavender said that the bear then bit Canady, "causing the most serious damage to the wrist area." Canady also sustained puncture wounds to his chest and pelvic area, Lavender said.

"While the victim was on the ground with the bear on top of him, the other hunter pulled and kicked the 350-pound animal off of the victim and was able to shoot the bear a fourth time, killing it," according to Lavender.

Canady was airlifted to Shands Medical Center in Jacksonville, Fla., for treatment. A hospital spokesman said Friday morning that Canady had been released overnight.

The south Georgia bear hunting season opened on Sept. 29 and runs on weekends through Oct. 15.


http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/bear-attacks-hunter-in-south-georgia/nQMWT/


Black powder might be OK if he was carrying a 44 mag for backup, which is probably only illegal in a few respects with him only being 13. However, if you are on the stand with him, with a backup, it wouldn't be an all bad deal. Not every 13 year old can say he killed a bear, and fewer yet can say they killed one with a muzzleloader.

Setting him on a stand, all alone, first time shooting a bear, I'd say.... Absolutely NOT! The andrenaline is going to be pumping, he's going to be shaking a little, he's only got one shot, the knowledge of which might make for more adrenaline and shaking; that's just not cool. Knowing he has backup, and that 'he' only has one shot, might make him focus better trying to make it count.
 
good point guys about the possible followup shot needed, for safety reasons, if nothing else. I will be sitting with him. However I will not have a license to harvest a bear as I am transferring my WI license to him and thus will not be hunting and I'm not sure whether I could carry a sidearm or not. I'd have to look into that. It takes a number of years to draw a license in WI.
I highly doubt he's going after alaskan grizzlies any time in the near future.

I do have the .270 WSM which, who knows, by next fall, he may be able to handle. He's a relatively good sized kid and has done alot of shooting (mostly trapshooting) the last couple of years so its not like he's scared of it.
I've got a rifled barrel for his 20 gauge that he shoots trap with I could slap on there. I'm halfway leaning towards buying him an "entry level" rifle of a suitable caliber that he can use onthis hunt and also for whitetails.
The way I look at it is like this. My dad is an awsome father. When I was young, money was always tight. However, if I needed a box of shotgun shells to go squirrel hunting, duck hunting, or whatever, they were always there for me. He made sure of that. I always had a gun to hunt whatever I thought I needed to be hunting.
However, he did not buy me the more expensive shotguns and rifles that I eventually grew up and worked and saved for and earned on my own. Not a bad way to do it in my opinion.
I've been considering either used or something along the lines of the Axis for him. The first rifle my mom and dad bought for me as a gift was the remington model 788 in .243 that I think at the time was probably less then 200 bucks. I'm considering a used 788 for him in either a 7mm08 or .308. That gives him a bear/deer gun. If he chooses to upgrade later like i did, that is up to him.
I do know one thing. Of all the guns I own, there are two that mean more to me than any of the more expensive ones. that old 788 and a savage/fox model B 20 ga. side by side that was his favorite gun. I shot my first squirrel, deer, grouse, duck, and just about every other first with that shotgun.
The 788 in .243 is the gun that he has already used to kill a deer and will be carrying this coming saturday when we hunt the WI deer opener.
 
It is legal to open carry in WI without a license but to conceal a firearm one is needed. I've had some issues in my neighborhood last summer and was encouraged to mow my lawn with a holstered pistol....advise given given direct from a local police officer. Thank god they've done a great job cleaning up my neighborhood. But I don't think you can carry a firearm if your a class B non harvest bear tag holder which you'll have to purchase to sit next to him.
 
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I like a big-bore levergun for bears because of their fast handling/follow-up ability.

A 30-30 would work, but I like larger. 35 Remington minimum. I usually carry a 348 Win or 444.....
 
Originally Posted By: Greg_MeyerOriginally Posted By: MNHNTRThe 243 will do anything the 257 bob will and in some cases better. So I am not sure why you would waste your money.

My experience has been different than this... My experience has been that my .257 with 110-120 grain loads have been more lethal than the .244s Might be my choice of bullets and a very limited sample.

But, this is an argument that may rage on forever. However, in the right rifle you can push the .257 way beyond the .243... And, in similar bullets the .257 will always be heavier and therefore have a slight edge.

I own a .243 Win and I enjoy it but there is no way that I would rather have it for bear or similar sized game than I would a .257 Roberts. Bigger heavier bullets going to win out here.

There is an old man here in the town that I live in that used a .257 Bob for 60 years for deer, elk and bear and claims to never have lost an animal. I believe him too.
 
Originally Posted By: Robinhood21We had a girl shoot a 200lb. sow with a .243 and it had no problem. It all depends where you place that bullet.

This is definitely true. That said, I think the .260 is a better choice simply because of the weight and higher SD of the bullets. Better penetration with only slightly more recoil........
 
Several years back I purchased a 7-08 for my wife. Since that time she has killed numerous whitetail and just last year took a beautiful black bear. It was 1 shot, complete pass through, 30 yard recovery. Winchester 140 grain and she is 125 pounds on a good day.
 
Originally Posted By: geodegood point guys about the possible followup shot needed, for safety reasons, if nothing else. I will be sitting with him. However I will not have a license to harvest a bear as I am transferring my WI license to him and thus will not be hunting and I'm not sure whether I could carry a sidearm or not. I'd have to look into that. It takes a number of years to draw a license in WI.

Unless you are really a bad @ss in the ring, I'd say BY ALL MEANS, you oughta be packin bubba! I don't care what he's shootin!! If you don't own a 44 mag, now would be a good time to purchase one. 357 works, but most of the guys I hunted with THOUGHT they were sufficient, and they wound up buying .44s before they were done, figuring out pistol hunting bear.

CCW permit; you can carry on vitually all hunting lands. Exceptions would be military installations, Corps of Engineer property, state regulated properties. National Forest you are good, been there and tested that one already, having the gun and a permit made other problems go away.

Originally Posted By: geode I highly doubt he's going after alaskan grizzlies any time in the near future.

A pissed off black bear will mess you up too! Never under-estimate their ability.

Originally Posted By: geodeI do have the .270 WSM which, who knows, by next fall, he may be able to handle. He's a relatively good sized kid and has done alot of shooting (mostly trapshooting) the last couple of years so its not like he's scared of it.

Put a bear in front of him, and he'll shoot the .270 like a trooper. Never know he squeezed the trigger. But again, ,the .270, dependent upon round, might be a tad light for BIG black bear.

Originally Posted By: geode I've got a rifled barrel for his 20 gauge that he shoots trap with I could slap on there. I'm halfway leaning towards buying him an "entry level" rifle of a suitable caliber that he can use onthis hunt and also for whitetails.

Buy the kid a gun already! Quit waiting for us to talk you out of it!

Originally Posted By: geodeThe way I look at it is like this. My dad is an awsome father. When I was young, money was always tight. However, if I needed a box of shotgun shells to go squirrel hunting, duck hunting, or whatever, they were always there for me. He made sure of that. I always had a gun to hunt whatever I thought I needed to be hunting.

However, he did not buy me the more expensive shotguns and rifles that I eventually grew up and worked and saved for and earned on my own. Not a bad way to do it in my opinion.

I've been considering either used or something along the lines of the Axis for him. The first rifle my mom and dad bought for me
as a gift was the remington model 788 in .243 that I think at the time was probably less then 200 bucks. I'm considering a used 788 for him in either a 7mm08 or .308. That gives him a bear/deer gun. If he chooses to upgrade later like i did, that is up to him.
I do know one thing. Of all the guns I own, there are two that mean more to me than any of the more expensive ones. that old 788 and a savage/fox model B 20 ga. side by side that was his favorite gun. I shot my first squirrel, deer, grouse, duck, and just about every other first with that shotgun.
The 788 in .243 is the gun that he has already used to kill a deer and will be carrying this coming saturday when we hunt the WI deer opener.


Have you asked him what he wants to shoot bear with? If he's pulling the trigger, he should maybe have a say. And, it would be a damm good time to introduce him to comparitive ballistics, and tell him, "What do you think?" Then point out the good ad bad in each option, show him the finer points of ballistics, and accept his input on this matter as well.

Rather than being Obama Dad, and saying you are going to shoot this 788 in 7mm-08, just because the guys on the forun said so.

Let him make up HIS mind.

 


I like the Marlin lever's in 35 Remington. Most handbooks have reduced loads for your son to start with. They list them as loads for the XP-100. I load a .357 158gr pistol bullet SPJ just for the range. I do not bear hunt but the 35rem will stop any whitetail. If you do not reload get one in 30-30.
 
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Take care, Willie
 
Originally Posted By: RustydustOriginally Posted By: Greg_MeyerOriginally Posted By: MNHNTRThe 243 will do anything the 257 bob will and in some cases better. So I am not sure why you would waste your money.

My experience has been different than this... My experience has been that my .257 with 110-120 grain loads have been more lethal than the .244s Might be my choice of bullets and a very limited sample.

But, this is an argument that may rage on forever. However, in the right rifle you can push the .257 way beyond the .243... And, in similar bullets the .257 will always be heavier and therefore have a slight edge.

I own a .243 Win and I enjoy it but there is no way that I would rather have it for bear or similar sized game than I would a .257 Roberts. Bigger heavier bullets going to win out here.

There is an old man here in the town that I live in that used a .257 Bob for 60 years for deer, elk and bear and claims to never have lost an animal. I believe him too.
I do not want to highjack this thread so this will be the last post I make on this. We can carry this out on another post if need be.
So in your opinion a 120gr bullet with a BC in the low to mid 400s is better than a 115gr bullet with a BC in the mid 500s? Sorry but you would be wrong. Comparing factory ammo a 257 with a 120gr bullet and a 243 with a 100gr bullet is virtually the same in energy and fps. SO again the bear would never know the difference in bullet weight. The bullet selection for the 243 is TWICE as many as the 257 and much better in terms of a variety of weight and higher BCs. Most of the 25s are good calibers but they do not compare to the 6mms and 6.5mms
 
BC’s don’t kill bears. BC’s kill paper--makes for a great story when you win a medal at the Olympics at 1000+ yards.

FPS also not a bear killer

Energy kills bears and yes, shot placement too but don’t give me the BC argument about shot placement inside 500 yards shooting a centerfire rifle.

So, does a 243 have more energy than a 257?

The answer to the question is no (but it is close as the post above stated). And it can’t be argued. Well it can but hopefully whoever argues it has someone else do their taxes and balance their checkbooks.

Now, I’m not a 243 hater…fact is, I’d hate to get shot by one. That would suck…

Personally, get the boy a 338 Win Mag with a Vais muzzle brake. Problem solved!!!! Boy is now a man and bear is now a cape.

I’ll also say the .243 is a more popular store bought cartridge (also something that can’t be argued). However, if you handload, the quarter bore SMOKES it…literally.

Everything from 75 grain V-Max up to a 120 grain partition. Years ago I’d never consider owning a .25 cal but now I’d own/buy one if I needed it in a heartbeat (don’t need it w/the 264 in the safe).


BTW, I’m not passionate about caliber debates because they are all killers but I do enjoy the posts. Have a good weekend folks and I hope you all put some fur on the ground!!!
 
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