Beagles Killed!

Well, like I said, I'm glad I live where I live and our rules are different. Any dog bothering livestock or wildlife can and usually is shot on sight. Any land owner or leesee may shoot a dog on private property that does not have permission to be there. I lease large tracts of land for the big game hunting and a dog chase through there that runs the big game off is detrimental. I won't allow it and don't have to. I have paying customers there all fall. How would you like to pay for a hunt and then have it ruined by a slob hound hunter that is running his dogs where they don't belong? We have tresspass laws for the same reason. I pay for the right to keep people other than my clients out and I do prosecute trespassers. I've heard the "I was lost" excuse too many times. The land owner pays for that right also. I'm sure most of you guys wouldn't apreciate someone in your backyard without permisssion and you would call the cops. There are some good hound guys in this country and most get permission to hunt (mostly lions). If they don't get permission they aren't in the dog business very long. Thats the way it should be. As for the beagles, if the guy had permission, then the land owner shouldn't have shot the dogs (unless they were bothering livestock). But as for hound hunters that don't take the time to get permission and go where they shouldn't, it is against the law and they should be prosecuted. I'm done with this subject and am not going to argue it anymore, but here, trespassing is against the law, and since it's illegal you shouldn't be doing it.
 
Hey Cal... did you even read what I said??? I said its not illegal in Missouri to run hounds on property thats not yours, and you can only charge someone for trespassing when they turn hounds loose on that property, once they are loose, nobody can do anything about it unless they are bothering livestock, or destroying property, ect. I've stated that many times, but you don't seem to understand.
I posted this story because we've had people threten to kill hounds before on here, and I wanted to post what would happen to them if they did it in the great state of Missouri!! Thanks, MOyotehunter
 
I don't know about your state but in most that I've seen the dogs must be attacking livestock or wildlfe to legally be shot, not just bothering. I'd have to say that if you shot one of my dogs for "bothering" your livestock that the livestock had better damn well have some damage done to it or all hell will break loose!Got to much time training invested in the dogs for some A$$hole to shoot it just because it was on his property. Plus I don't think you're getting what these guys are trying to tell ya, DOGS CAN'T READ, they do everything possible to keep there dogs from tresspassing but sometimes it is going to happen. Not trying to start crap just putting my .02 worth.
 
Anytime; I just couldn't read that crap any longer! Not many people that hunt with dogs around here so I deal with crap like that often, luckily I haven't lost a dog yet! Only thing I ever worry about is a big ol rank boar slicing and dicing the dogs, and I can live with that! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Heath,

My folks raise some registered goats; some are high dollar. Over the years and the many encounters we've had with dogs I can't recall a time that a shot in the direction of the dog didn't send it running.
 
See and ya didn't have to kill them, but were they hunting dogs? I doubt they were, what people that don't dog hunt don't understand is our dogs are trained for what ever we run and for the most part won't even look at livestock much less harass them, they have whatever critter they're running on there mind and nothing else. My dogs don't trash on livestock and if they do I take care of them myself(my father also raises goats, cows and never once had a problem, my pups do herd them up occasionally but they're only 3 months old) Now occasionally they may run something through some livestock and if it's cow's like mainly around here a dog don't really have much of chance against a group of cows and will usually get the hell out of there before the cows put there hooves to'em. It's just not worth it to shoot a dog just because it was there because we know our dogs and what they will and won't do and trashing is one of the first things most dog hunters take care of. Now I don't know the first thing about runnin yotes but I figure dog hunting is dog hunting.
 
Heath, you are explaining my point of view exactly. I don't have to say anything. You are compleatly right about the hounds really don't know there are cattle or horses around whe they're after their game, no matter what game it might be, rabbit, coon, fox, lion, bear, what-have-ya. Like you also said, if they do notice them, the cows are 100 times largern than them, and with about 20 of the cattle, the dogs want no part of them. Thanks Heath, MOyotehunter
 
I'm sorry, but this whole houndsman/trespass issue is no where near as simplistic and innocent as many of you try and make out. And I am flat tired of hearing that old saw about the dogs not being able to read signs used as an excuse for blatent and often illegal trespass.
This season I have been denied access to 7 farms which I have hunted and or trapped for more than 20 years. The reason in every case has been this "Innocent and harmless" transgression by those illiterate hounds.
Everytime this topic arises, houndsman are quick to point out that a coyote chase can go for miles, and there's no way to predict which way a chase may go. True. But coyotes aren't the only things being run by houndsman. In all seven cases above the offenders were running coons. In every case, the farmers involved were not the least bit thrilled at having baying hounds and yelling hunters out on the back 40 in the middle of the night, especiially without permission. Everyone of those farmers heard the same tail when confronting these "sportsman". "Well mister, our dogs can't read the signs. And once they tree a coon we have to come pull them off. . . " Now no one hunts these lands. These guys are tired of being treated like fools, and I don't blame them.
I understand your love of free casting your hounds, but everyday here in my home state of Michigan, the land gets chopped up into smaller and smaller chunks. And it doesn't matter that you can't grasp that some people don't like you running your dogs across their land without permission. Nor does it matter that YOU see this as stingy and selfish. What matters is that THOSE people DO feel that way. And when you violate that, they are going to feel betrayed and they are going to fight back. No, I don't believe they should shoot at your dogs. And you should know as well as I do that most won't. But many will, and do deny access to any and all because of such violations. Many will support future legistlation AGAINST you - Legislation you should know will likely be coming, because the antis are still at work.
Here in Michigan, running your dogs across someones property withoput permission is recreational trespass. It does not matter if this is intentional or not. Answer me this:

How many of you houndsman have started your dogs in an area where there was a REASONABLE POSSIBILITY that the chase could be carried over onto property where you DID NOT have permission to be? (Missouri hunters are exempt if they like, because it appears that property owners in that state have no rights.)
I'm guessing that if answered truthfully the majorty are going to say they HAVE. And this is one of the big problems with free casting hounds these days in many places. In my part of Northern Michigan it is almost impossible to find a place where you can run with out the likelyhood of trespass. Many of the people being trespassed against don't distinguish between houndsman, and callers, and trappers, and so on, all they see are hunters violating their space. It won't be long I'm afraid before we are faced with answering the question of whether we can continue to support the tradition of free casting to the detriment of the other facets of the sport in many of the more confined areas of the country. So please consider your behavior when loosing the hounds. And please don't try to over simlify this mess with such idiotic statments as "The dog can't read!"
 
I do understand what you are saying.... BUT! If you knew where we hunted, and the way we go about it, you would understand that we are asking permission. See who I hunt with, half of these guys are retired. (old Men) And there are about 4 or them that have lived there for more than 30 years, and one guy who is 70+ years old who's lived on the same land and place for his whole life. He is one of our main hunters, and hunts everyday during the winter. So he knows how everything lies, who owns it, even where every little hole is in just about every field that we have permission to drive on. Any person that drives by when we are hunting, he has to stop and chat and talk with them for a while, sometimes its frustrating when there's a hot race... LOL!! He's real good friends will all the farmers around there, because they've lived there just about as long as he has.

SO by God!!! You don't downgrade me when someone around you is doing something bad... Thats what the anti's do!!! Its not all of us.. And its a bunch of BS!!!
Good Day!! MOyotehunter
 
I think I'm starting to see the problem. Coyote hunters have a different method and technique than coon hunters. But the average landowner doesn't see (or care about) that difference. All he knows is that you're hunting with hounds. Period. Coyote hunters deserve more respect than that, but are lumped in with the other traditional hound hunters. A little ignorance goes a long way. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
Mo,
Degradation is not my intention. But I am stating that you and you compatriots are the EXCEPTION. Not the other way around.
I have watched this particular fight for a long time, and as the open areas to run have grown fewer and farther between, the houndsmen in my region have grown more and more agressive in their trespassing, AND their various ways of trying to justify it it.
If you took my comment about Missouri land owners as a shot that's fine, because it was intended as such. After all it WAS you Missouri boys that said it was ok to trespass your dogs because it wasn't considered trespass there. (It was NOT an attempt to degrade you in any way, I'm a bit of an antagonist, but not an a**hole.)
And, age and knowledge of an area are not assurances that transgressions will not occure.
One of the farms I just "lost" is fairly large by area standards. The owners home sits just about smack dab in the middle and its a good 2-2-1/2 miles in any direction to anyone elses land. The offenders that "Broke the camels back" had a coon treed literally in this mans back yard at 3 in the morning. When confronted the headman claimed they had started the critter "down on the state land to the south." Thing is that state land is over 20 MILES to the south! It's all private in between, and by this mans own admission he didn't have permission to hunt those farms either. Pretty long run for a coon over open farm land don't you think?
Oh yea, the offender here is well up in his sixties, and his family was one of the original farms in the area,(Circa 1880's) and he's lived less that 30 miles from this mans farm his whole life. Make of it what you will. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Iv'e also lost land to hunt coyotes on to coon hunters. Ran through his pasture in the middle of the night and his milk cows spooked and broke down the fence. Yet the two years before that the farmer sat there and watched while my hounds ran a coyote right though the whole heard of cows and all they did was follow the dogs to the edge of the fence. Different when they can see whats going on. In Minnesota if a hound strays on land where you don't have permission you may not shoot the animal you are after. You can however go in without a gun and get you dog.
 
Nasa,
Yes actually; A little ignorance does go a long ways. I'm sure we've all seen plenty of examples of this in our struggle to keep hunting alive.
But not all houndsmen are ONLY coyote runners, or coon runners, ect. The neighbor over the hill from me runs bear, coyote, rabbit, fox, and bobcat, and has the kennels full of hounds to prove it.
But again, we are only discussing little facets of a large and complex problem. In my area we have had coyote and bobcat runners verbally and even physically assault fellow hunters on STATE land, just for hunting in the same area they were running. NO, I DO NOT BELIEVE these represent houndsman every where. I BELEIVE them to be an isolated case. But, I know one of the men who was assaulted and you'll NEVER convince him that all coyote runners aren't the worst of the worst. Ignorant? YES. But still a fact to be dealt with.
We have bear men that routinely search out other hunters bait stations in order to start their hounds. (Dealt with this one myself.) And a Michigan bear tag can take years to get, so please understand that someone who chooses to run baits might not like having his stand wreaked by a pack of hounds. Are these guys the rule or the exception? Tough call, because I know a fair number of our local bear dog men, and I dont know ANY that DON'T do it. Although I am sure there are plenty.
 
No, the dogs were not hunting dogs. And most of the time you can tell a difference between a dog that is just playing with the critters and a dog that is trying to get lunch.

I've put down several dogs that have taken to the taste of one of the critters on the farm. Once they get a taste for it they will never quit.
 
Same way with a hounds after its game, once they get a taste of it, they don't want to quit running it, thats why its hard to sometime keep in control of where they go! Thanks for realizing that! MOyotehunter
 
I've read through this thread with interest. I grew up following beagles as they chased cottontails and absolutely love the little hounds. As I type this very minute my old bathed and pampered beagle lay at my feet snoozing.

I've been on both sides of this issue. My dogs have hit a long legged old rabbit that coursed off the property I was hunting and chose to circle off on the other side of the fence. If they couldn't get the rabbit to circle back to us in a reasonable amount of time, one of us always tried to find the farmer so we could retrieve the dogs with his permission. Occasionally that isn't possible and the only way to get a good dog off the track if the game won't hole up is to grab onto the dogs and leash them, or shoot the game and end the race. We never shot the rabbit without permission. Always, and I mean always, contact was made with the landowner and an explanation offered about the situation in a polite and respectful manner. Many times after a bit of conversation permission was given to hunt the property because of the respect rendered to the landowner. On rare occasion a landowner responded rudely and I was told in no uncertain terms to keep my butt and my dogs off their property. I always apologized and honored that request with no malice.

I also grew up on a small farm that harboured an excellent population of squirrel, rabbit, quail, and dove. We shared a few deer and turkey with our neighboring farmers. The game was on our place because my Dad managed the farm to offer good habitat. We grew a few crops, had some laying hens, a cow or two, and a fishing hole or three in a creek that ran on the place. We had excellent relations with all the neighbors with the exception of one crew that lived about a mile away. They were a no good bunch. Later in life one of the boys robbed a bank and shot a policeman, the others all ended up in prison over drugs, assaults, arsons and about anything else you can name. This bunch of pirates had a pack of scurvy hounds that freely ran the countryside and made many a meal of the neighboring farmers chickens, turkeys, ducks, ect... It really wasn't the dogs fault. They were underfed, under trained, and given no care. The roughnecks hunted where ever they wanted, whenever they wanted. Most of the neighbors did nothing about this as they were afraid the crapheads would burn their places down when they were gone, rob them, ect...
My Dad is a man of honor and a gentleman, but he is not to be trifled with and will not be intimadated. I rode with him as a fourteen year old to visit the rowdy bunch and I have to tell ya, I was a little scared driving into their farmlane. Dad patiently explained that he would appreciate if they could manage their dogs better and informed them that he would not give them permission to hunt our property. The day before when Dad was at work several of them managed to scare my Mom when they shot a rabbit out of our front yard. They then field dressed it and left the head and guts in the lawn as she watched from the living room picture window. I can vivedly remember the biggest of the crew stepping off the porch and squaring off in Dad's face as he asked what Dad was going to do about it. This fellow was about a foot taller than Dad and outweighed him by 100 pounds. As I remember this I can't help but swell with pride as I recall Dad stepping right into the big dude and quietly telling him that he would shoot any dog that killed or chased our stock. And moreover, he would make a special trip out of his way to come whip this particular guys $ss! All man and no bulls$it, that's Dad. Our farm never had those problems after this visit.

I'm also a property owner. This past winter some coon hunters ran their dogs into the back woods and shot a coon out. This happened around 11 PM on a work night. They never made contact and had no permission to hunt. Now, killing the coon didn't bother me the slightest. I've got coons running out of my ears. I would have gladly given permission-IF THEY HAD THE DECENCY TO ASK! Or, if they had stopped by the next day or two and explained and asked permission it would not have been a problem. The fact that they cared nothing of my rights as the property owner and took my property for granted is a bit troublesome.

NASA said somewhere above:
A man looses his hounds 2 miles away from "your" property.
Click to expand...
That emphasis on "your" property sorta bothers me. NASA, I have no bone to pick with you personally (or anybody in this discussion). You weren't addressing me, however, let me point out something. To the landowner and speaking from his perspective, you're damn right this is "my" property! I work hard for a living and have worked hard to be a property owner. Land and upkeep along with a nice home isn't an inexpensive thing. Nor is it easy to maintain. Folks who live out of town tend to be closer to the earth than "city folk" in my opinion. No disrespect meant for those who chose to, or have to, live in town. Farmers/Ranchers are a hardy lot. They farm the land, grow crops, stock, and deal with all that nature brings to them on a daily basis. There's no running in to town for every little thing when town is miles away over rough roads. It's a different lifestyle. There is a bond to your land. The landowner pays the bills and nobody else is ENTITLED to anything on that place. This may only be property to you, however, IT'S MY HOME! My family lives here. If I stepped uninvited into "your" living room and whizzed on the couch, you'd take exception to it. Fellows, never forget that fact and don't take it for granted.

Here's the gist of the thing in my opinion. This isn't an "Us vs. Them" thing. Mutual respect will bridge many gaps, but respect is earned and not simply given. As hunters we need to have our best foot forward and be willing to go the extra mile to ensure positive relations with all we come in contact with. Attitude is everything if we want to preserve our chosen sport for future generations to enjoy the outdoor heritage and lifestyle we currently do. I'm not saying we bend over for anyone, but I do think we should conduct ourselves as gentlemen and take the high road everytime it's offered. Of course this only my perspective and worth exactly what you paid for it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Back
Top