Another Shotgun load for coyotes post, with pattern pictures.
- Thread starter derbyacresbob
- Start date
derbyacresbob
Well-known member
Remington 11-87 with a 28" barrel. Here is a picture of my old 11-87 taken on 9/11/07.
Razorsedge
New member
weasel,
Thanks for the input. I don't use shotguns for coyotes but was just thinking about the "What ifs".
Thanks for the input. I don't use shotguns for coyotes but was just thinking about the "What ifs".
I received my Carleson coyote choke this week and today I made a trip to the Bass Pro shop in Nashville, TN to buy some shotgun shells. I found the Remington Wingmaster HD 3" shells in BB. They were setting on a label that said $20.99 thinking I got them cheaper then the Dead Coyote shells by Hevi-Shot($29.95). At the checkout the shells rang up for $31.95 which I then returned to their customer service. The $20.99 price was for a pack of 5 of the Remington shells which were absent from the shelf. There was no notification from Bass Pro or any Remington rebate display near the Remington shells. I did grab the last box of Dead Coyote to try in my Mossberg 835 Ultra-Mag.
derbyacresbob
Well-known member
Check out the Remington Arms web site for the CASH BACK information and details.
GC
Well-known member
Razoredge,
I've killed coyotes with turkey loads. I used .12 ga. 3" 2 ounce loads of plated lead #4's, and, 1 3/4 ounce of high velocity plated lead #5's. Every single coyote shot over about 25 yards ran off, several of them quite far off! In heavy cover soft footed coyotes don't leave tracks on forest floors or grass, and, they don't bleed much from small pellet holes. Additionally, the heavy fur soaks up blood and doesn't leave sign. Some of those coyotes managed to get well over 200 yards before expiring and I was danged lucky to find them. Turkey loads have limited range and effectiveness and there are many much better loads easily available.
Randy Buker,
We have been discussing those new "denser than lead" loads for some time now. I was pondering them last year. I think they "may" be very effective. Better than Dead Coyote? I don't see it. In Winchester's case the largest shot is B and they don't list a velocity. Federal's isn't shakin' the earth with anything revolutionary. Remington seems to offer the best load with its HD loading of BB or T size shot. Again, better than Dead Coyote? How so? The Remington load is the same weight as the Dead Coyote at 1 1/2 ounces per 3" inch .12 gauge at 1,300 fps. Dead Coyote shoots the same weight of harder T-shot at the same velocity. Ok, there are more pellets in the Remington BB load. Here is the difference that tilts the odds in favor of the Dead Coyote in my opinon... The T-shot in the Dead Coyote Hevi-Shot load is HARD. Real HARD. The larger hard shot will penetrate and break bones. Byron South told me that coyotes simply rattled with broken bones when you picked them up after being shot with the Dead Coyote. Many guys have noticed the Dead Coyote penetrating through and through their wooden backstops when patterning at the range, when lead loads only stuck in the wood and failed to exit. The Remington HD shot is much softer than Hevi-Shot and closer to lead in that department. Anyone who has shot coyotes with lead BB's can tell you that they don't break bones at longer ranges and rely on soft tissue destruction of vital organs to get their killing done. I feel very confident the harder Hevi-Shot product will prove more effective at long ranges because of this ability to penetrate, and/or, break bones. If I'm going to pay $3.00 a pop and up, then I'm going to use the best load I can lay my grubby little hands on. Right now taking all things into consideration I believe that to be Dead Coyote. Otherwise, for economy I'll use either plated lead No. Four Buck, or the same material in BB size. I do think the high velocity denser than lead BB's available now are going to prove measurably better than the old plated lead stuff. Better than Hevi-Shot's Dead Coyote T-shot, I just don't see it.
I've killed coyotes with turkey loads. I used .12 ga. 3" 2 ounce loads of plated lead #4's, and, 1 3/4 ounce of high velocity plated lead #5's. Every single coyote shot over about 25 yards ran off, several of them quite far off! In heavy cover soft footed coyotes don't leave tracks on forest floors or grass, and, they don't bleed much from small pellet holes. Additionally, the heavy fur soaks up blood and doesn't leave sign. Some of those coyotes managed to get well over 200 yards before expiring and I was danged lucky to find them. Turkey loads have limited range and effectiveness and there are many much better loads easily available.
Randy Buker,
We have been discussing those new "denser than lead" loads for some time now. I was pondering them last year. I think they "may" be very effective. Better than Dead Coyote? I don't see it. In Winchester's case the largest shot is B and they don't list a velocity. Federal's isn't shakin' the earth with anything revolutionary. Remington seems to offer the best load with its HD loading of BB or T size shot. Again, better than Dead Coyote? How so? The Remington load is the same weight as the Dead Coyote at 1 1/2 ounces per 3" inch .12 gauge at 1,300 fps. Dead Coyote shoots the same weight of harder T-shot at the same velocity. Ok, there are more pellets in the Remington BB load. Here is the difference that tilts the odds in favor of the Dead Coyote in my opinon... The T-shot in the Dead Coyote Hevi-Shot load is HARD. Real HARD. The larger hard shot will penetrate and break bones. Byron South told me that coyotes simply rattled with broken bones when you picked them up after being shot with the Dead Coyote. Many guys have noticed the Dead Coyote penetrating through and through their wooden backstops when patterning at the range, when lead loads only stuck in the wood and failed to exit. The Remington HD shot is much softer than Hevi-Shot and closer to lead in that department. Anyone who has shot coyotes with lead BB's can tell you that they don't break bones at longer ranges and rely on soft tissue destruction of vital organs to get their killing done. I feel very confident the harder Hevi-Shot product will prove more effective at long ranges because of this ability to penetrate, and/or, break bones. If I'm going to pay $3.00 a pop and up, then I'm going to use the best load I can lay my grubby little hands on. Right now taking all things into consideration I believe that to be Dead Coyote. Otherwise, for economy I'll use either plated lead No. Four Buck, or the same material in BB size. I do think the high velocity denser than lead BB's available now are going to prove measurably better than the old plated lead stuff. Better than Hevi-Shot's Dead Coyote T-shot, I just don't see it.
That's a BP load using a Fed. case, Federal 209 (not 209A) primer, 43 grains of HS6, BP10 wad with 3 slits 1.4" long, 4 cc. of regular buffer, 42 Hornady #4 buckshot, 1/8" fiber filler wad, 1 Tyvek over shot card and 60 lbs. wad pressure.
I have chronographed it, but can't recall what it was except that it was over 1200 fps.
The main thing contributing to the good patterns is the .705" Terror choke and the hard shot. The .705" Terror is made by Sure Cycle and works well with all lead shot up to 4 buck. I tried some 0 buck made from wheelweights case from a Lee .311" round ball mold and while the patterns were good, they were really too thin to be effective on smaller animals like a coyote. They probably would work for deer ..... if you wanted to carry a 10 1/4 lb. 10ga. deer hunting. LOL
I have chronographed it, but can't recall what it was except that it was over 1200 fps.
The main thing contributing to the good patterns is the .705" Terror choke and the hard shot. The .705" Terror is made by Sure Cycle and works well with all lead shot up to 4 buck. I tried some 0 buck made from wheelweights case from a Lee .311" round ball mold and while the patterns were good, they were really too thin to be effective on smaller animals like a coyote. They probably would work for deer ..... if you wanted to carry a 10 1/4 lb. 10ga. deer hunting. LOL
Dogboy
New member
CDR nice dense pattern there... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
TNsenior I think you will like the dead coyote load and the Carlson's choke combo in your 835. Let us know how it works out.
GC well said on the above post........ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif Question have you shot any of the hevishot in B or #2's at fur yet?
TNsenior I think you will like the dead coyote load and the Carlson's choke combo in your 835. Let us know how it works out.
GC well said on the above post........ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif Question have you shot any of the hevishot in B or #2's at fur yet?
R Buker
New member
GC,
I'm not going to get into a pissing match about which load will be better because no one is paying me or even giving me any free ammo. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
But, I do want to point out a few things.
First, we need to realize a couple of things when we talk about these loads.
There are a ton of variables such as velocity and shot size and pellet density. Change one variable and everything changes.
But, some things are important to consider. Pellet density is one of them. This density is rated as grams per cubic centimeter. For example: Steel shot is approx 7.8 g/cc. Lead is about 10.9 g/cc. That gives us a starting point.
Now, first off, hevi shot is "about 12 g/cc" About 10% heavier than lead for the same size. This means that hevi shot is going to retain more energy down range than lead.
Given that the above is true, let's look at Federal's new heavy weight load. You said that federal didn't have much in the works to get excited about. I think you are wrong about that.
Their new heavy weight load is 15 g/cc or almost 50% heavier than lead. Again, given the same velocity, it will retain almost 25% more energy down range than hevi shot of the same shot size.
As for Remington HD, I'll happily shoot their 10 gauge load of BB's over dead coyote "T" shot any day of the week in their 12 gauge load.
Speaking of shot size. Some folks are under the impression that bigger is better. That's only true up to a certain point. We all know that the bigger shot size you go to, the fewer pellets are in each shell.
A shotgun becomes an effective coyote killer based on two actions. One of those actions is what you speak of when you say dead coyote loads have pellets large enough to break bones. Breaking bones will break down the coyote and keep him in one spot. But, breaking bones doesn't kill them. What kills them is the penetration of vital organs or nerve centers.
An effective load will be one that does both.
The more pellets that are capable of both breaking bones and penetrating vital organs and nerve centers makes for a better load. At close range, it's amazing how effective a shotgun with almost ANY load can be.
But, this conversation is more about longer ranges.
So, we need to find a balance between number of pellets and size in order to meet our needs.
One thing people often get wrong is the idea that bigger will penetrate farther. That's not always true in the case of coyotes. In ballistic gelatin and such, that will almost always be true based purely on energy. A "T" shot pellet will penetrate the gelatin farther than a "BB" shot pellet that is shot at identical velocities.
The difference is that a coyote is NOT gelatin. A coyote has fur. If you've ever traced the path of a pellet in a shotgun killed coyote, you've often noticed the wad of fur on the pellet. When a pellet goes into a coyote, it collects fur which slows downt he pellet and makes it penetrate less far than if there were no fur. A larger pellet collects more fur than a smaller pellet.
It's very likely that depending upon what else is going on in our situation (like range, how thick the fur of the coyote is, etc)a smaller pellet of the same energy as a larger pellet will actually penetrate farther than a larger pellet simply because it didn't pick up as much fur on the way in. And, a smaller sized pellet load will deliver more pellets to our target. There'll be more of a chance (over twice the chance!) at extended ranges to hit vitals multiple times to ensure a quick kill. (based on lead shot, there are 21 pellets of 4 buck in an ounce of shot but there are more than twice that at 50 pellets in an ounce of BB's!)
But,we still need size to break bones and keep the animal there. At reasonable shotgun ranges (max 60 yards with the premium shot) the BB's still maintain adequate energy to break bones. And, because of the increased range and wider patterns, the number of pellets is going to be very important to ensure that you even hit some major bones to break!!!
I hope the above isn't too disjointed to make sense. I typed it quickly while at work.
The bottom line is that all of these premium loads for coyotes are better than anything we've ever had before. That includes dead coyote. But, if I can increase the payload of my shot over that of dead coyote, it's better. If I can get a load that allows me to shoot smaller shot sizes with the same or better energy than dead coyote, then that's what I'll shoot for better pattern coverage, better penetration and better bone breaking ability.
Like I said, I have no investment with any of these companies. All I know is what what's worked well for me in the past and based on a few simple physics principles what will work best for me in the future.
Everyone else is on their own. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
I'm not going to get into a pissing match about which load will be better because no one is paying me or even giving me any free ammo. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
But, I do want to point out a few things.
First, we need to realize a couple of things when we talk about these loads.
There are a ton of variables such as velocity and shot size and pellet density. Change one variable and everything changes.
But, some things are important to consider. Pellet density is one of them. This density is rated as grams per cubic centimeter. For example: Steel shot is approx 7.8 g/cc. Lead is about 10.9 g/cc. That gives us a starting point.
Now, first off, hevi shot is "about 12 g/cc" About 10% heavier than lead for the same size. This means that hevi shot is going to retain more energy down range than lead.
Given that the above is true, let's look at Federal's new heavy weight load. You said that federal didn't have much in the works to get excited about. I think you are wrong about that.
Their new heavy weight load is 15 g/cc or almost 50% heavier than lead. Again, given the same velocity, it will retain almost 25% more energy down range than hevi shot of the same shot size.
As for Remington HD, I'll happily shoot their 10 gauge load of BB's over dead coyote "T" shot any day of the week in their 12 gauge load.
Speaking of shot size. Some folks are under the impression that bigger is better. That's only true up to a certain point. We all know that the bigger shot size you go to, the fewer pellets are in each shell.
A shotgun becomes an effective coyote killer based on two actions. One of those actions is what you speak of when you say dead coyote loads have pellets large enough to break bones. Breaking bones will break down the coyote and keep him in one spot. But, breaking bones doesn't kill them. What kills them is the penetration of vital organs or nerve centers.
An effective load will be one that does both.
The more pellets that are capable of both breaking bones and penetrating vital organs and nerve centers makes for a better load. At close range, it's amazing how effective a shotgun with almost ANY load can be.
But, this conversation is more about longer ranges.
So, we need to find a balance between number of pellets and size in order to meet our needs.
One thing people often get wrong is the idea that bigger will penetrate farther. That's not always true in the case of coyotes. In ballistic gelatin and such, that will almost always be true based purely on energy. A "T" shot pellet will penetrate the gelatin farther than a "BB" shot pellet that is shot at identical velocities.
The difference is that a coyote is NOT gelatin. A coyote has fur. If you've ever traced the path of a pellet in a shotgun killed coyote, you've often noticed the wad of fur on the pellet. When a pellet goes into a coyote, it collects fur which slows downt he pellet and makes it penetrate less far than if there were no fur. A larger pellet collects more fur than a smaller pellet.
It's very likely that depending upon what else is going on in our situation (like range, how thick the fur of the coyote is, etc)a smaller pellet of the same energy as a larger pellet will actually penetrate farther than a larger pellet simply because it didn't pick up as much fur on the way in. And, a smaller sized pellet load will deliver more pellets to our target. There'll be more of a chance (over twice the chance!) at extended ranges to hit vitals multiple times to ensure a quick kill. (based on lead shot, there are 21 pellets of 4 buck in an ounce of shot but there are more than twice that at 50 pellets in an ounce of BB's!)
But,we still need size to break bones and keep the animal there. At reasonable shotgun ranges (max 60 yards with the premium shot) the BB's still maintain adequate energy to break bones. And, because of the increased range and wider patterns, the number of pellets is going to be very important to ensure that you even hit some major bones to break!!!
I hope the above isn't too disjointed to make sense. I typed it quickly while at work.
The bottom line is that all of these premium loads for coyotes are better than anything we've ever had before. That includes dead coyote. But, if I can increase the payload of my shot over that of dead coyote, it's better. If I can get a load that allows me to shoot smaller shot sizes with the same or better energy than dead coyote, then that's what I'll shoot for better pattern coverage, better penetration and better bone breaking ability.
Like I said, I have no investment with any of these companies. All I know is what what's worked well for me in the past and based on a few simple physics principles what will work best for me in the future.
Everyone else is on their own. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Byron South
New member
I've got some of the new Remington loads and haven't shot but 8 shells yet, just to check my gun/choke. When I get more time (maybe this weekend) I'll try and shoot more and post the results.
I've been a stong proponent of the Dead Coyote load since it came out and have even suggested that they offer it loaded in BB's. I think BB's and T size shot both have their place and advantages. Obviously the BBs have a higher probability of more hits and the T shot has the obvious advantage of more downrange energy. Buker makes a valid point of penatration and bone breaking ability. Simple physics will tell us that the bigger pellets will collect more hair but those same rules say the larger mass of the T shot will also be effected less. Put another way, I'd be willing to bet if you put hair on balistic gell, the T's would still out penatrate the BB's. Also the larger shot is more efficient and has more retained energy at all ranges. Truth is though, it is still splitting hairs to a degree. MORE VS BIGGER /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif. We all know that plated lead BB's have proven effective so we can conclude that the heavier shot material would perform even better. I wouldn't feel undergunned with either out to about 50 yards if I had a good shotgun/choke combination.
Now back to the Remington load. I did open up and examine both a load of DC and the Remington HD T load. In apearance they seem almost identical with the Remington seemingly being a little more uniform and smoother. Remington's website states that they are softer so I decided to test this with some pliers. I took pellets from the DC load and was easily able to turn them into powder with a little effort on the pliers. This shot is very hard but also very brittle. I then attempted to do this with the Remington HD T's and couldn't get it to crush or break. This stuff is NOT soft. I have also heard that this Remington stuff is more choke responsive than the other HD stuff. Not sure about this but I can tell you it shot very well through the same chokes I was shooting the DC stuff through. Where I'm at right now, I would give a slight edge to the Remington stuff. Remember though with shotguns we take what we can get. Shotguns by design are short range weapons firing little rounds pellets at 12 to 1300 fps. These litle pellets run out of gas pretty fast. The new more dense stuff does better but will not double your effective range. Gains in a few yards of effectiveness when discussing shotguns is very obtainable with this stuff though. Ultimately it is your responsibilty to use your head, test your combination and be fully aware what your load/gun will do and then exercise good judgment when applying it in the field.
Here is a little tip I'll share with you that I use when shooting coyotes with a shotgun. I plan on sending two or more rounds downrange every time I shoot a coyote with a shotgun. Most of the time it only takes one but I stay engaged, and prepared for a double tap if needed. 52 pellets in a load of DC is more than most coyotes can handle but 104 pellets ups the odds considerably in my favor. I'm not advocating spray and pray by any means but shotgunning coyotes sometimes requires these tactics. Most of the time I'm using a shotgun is in heavy forest. As GC stated coyotes hit with shotguns don't bleed much. My rule of thump is shoot until I'm out of live coyotes or shells, which ever comes first. In the thick stuff a coyote that travels a 100 yards and then expires is often lost unless you have a dog. I'd rather be calling another stand than looking for a wounded coyote. On bobcats, remember they can often take a good load and appear to be deader than a wedge for a few monets to even longer then seem to miracuously leap to their feet and disapear never to be found. I've seen it enough, espeacially with a shotgun that I stay trained on the target until I know it was a fatal shot and he is down for good. Shotguns are wonderful tools and often the best choice but we owe it to ourseves and mostly the game to know it's limitations as well and be respoinsible enough to stay within those limitations.
More food for thought.
We have or at least most of us have strived to come up with ways of extending the effective range of our shotguns to the point that under 25 or so yards we basically are shooting rifles and not scatter guns. In most the situations I employ a shotgun I know my shots will be limited to about 40 yards or so and many time closer than that. When I do get a coyote that close my 60 yard coyote shotgun is not much more effective at making hits than a rifle. I'm a rifleman at heart but understand the advantages of the shotgun when engageing fast coyotes in thick cover. This year I'm backing off my super tight chokes to a more open pattern in hopes of better coverage on the "SHOTGUN RANGE" predators. Basically what I'm saying is if you have a shotgun that is by chance shooting a good pattern at 60-70 yards or so you are basically shooting a rifle at ranges under 25 or so. I may go back to my tight chokes after a short while but for now I'm choking my shotgun for 15-45 yard coyotes and I'm leaving the 70 yard coyotes to the rifle.
Sorry to go on so long. I wrote this in a hurry and in between work and phone calls so I hope it makes since.
Good Hunting and God Bless,
Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I've been a stong proponent of the Dead Coyote load since it came out and have even suggested that they offer it loaded in BB's. I think BB's and T size shot both have their place and advantages. Obviously the BBs have a higher probability of more hits and the T shot has the obvious advantage of more downrange energy. Buker makes a valid point of penatration and bone breaking ability. Simple physics will tell us that the bigger pellets will collect more hair but those same rules say the larger mass of the T shot will also be effected less. Put another way, I'd be willing to bet if you put hair on balistic gell, the T's would still out penatrate the BB's. Also the larger shot is more efficient and has more retained energy at all ranges. Truth is though, it is still splitting hairs to a degree. MORE VS BIGGER /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif. We all know that plated lead BB's have proven effective so we can conclude that the heavier shot material would perform even better. I wouldn't feel undergunned with either out to about 50 yards if I had a good shotgun/choke combination.
Now back to the Remington load. I did open up and examine both a load of DC and the Remington HD T load. In apearance they seem almost identical with the Remington seemingly being a little more uniform and smoother. Remington's website states that they are softer so I decided to test this with some pliers. I took pellets from the DC load and was easily able to turn them into powder with a little effort on the pliers. This shot is very hard but also very brittle. I then attempted to do this with the Remington HD T's and couldn't get it to crush or break. This stuff is NOT soft. I have also heard that this Remington stuff is more choke responsive than the other HD stuff. Not sure about this but I can tell you it shot very well through the same chokes I was shooting the DC stuff through. Where I'm at right now, I would give a slight edge to the Remington stuff. Remember though with shotguns we take what we can get. Shotguns by design are short range weapons firing little rounds pellets at 12 to 1300 fps. These litle pellets run out of gas pretty fast. The new more dense stuff does better but will not double your effective range. Gains in a few yards of effectiveness when discussing shotguns is very obtainable with this stuff though. Ultimately it is your responsibilty to use your head, test your combination and be fully aware what your load/gun will do and then exercise good judgment when applying it in the field.
Here is a little tip I'll share with you that I use when shooting coyotes with a shotgun. I plan on sending two or more rounds downrange every time I shoot a coyote with a shotgun. Most of the time it only takes one but I stay engaged, and prepared for a double tap if needed. 52 pellets in a load of DC is more than most coyotes can handle but 104 pellets ups the odds considerably in my favor. I'm not advocating spray and pray by any means but shotgunning coyotes sometimes requires these tactics. Most of the time I'm using a shotgun is in heavy forest. As GC stated coyotes hit with shotguns don't bleed much. My rule of thump is shoot until I'm out of live coyotes or shells, which ever comes first. In the thick stuff a coyote that travels a 100 yards and then expires is often lost unless you have a dog. I'd rather be calling another stand than looking for a wounded coyote. On bobcats, remember they can often take a good load and appear to be deader than a wedge for a few monets to even longer then seem to miracuously leap to their feet and disapear never to be found. I've seen it enough, espeacially with a shotgun that I stay trained on the target until I know it was a fatal shot and he is down for good. Shotguns are wonderful tools and often the best choice but we owe it to ourseves and mostly the game to know it's limitations as well and be respoinsible enough to stay within those limitations.
More food for thought.
We have or at least most of us have strived to come up with ways of extending the effective range of our shotguns to the point that under 25 or so yards we basically are shooting rifles and not scatter guns. In most the situations I employ a shotgun I know my shots will be limited to about 40 yards or so and many time closer than that. When I do get a coyote that close my 60 yard coyote shotgun is not much more effective at making hits than a rifle. I'm a rifleman at heart but understand the advantages of the shotgun when engageing fast coyotes in thick cover. This year I'm backing off my super tight chokes to a more open pattern in hopes of better coverage on the "SHOTGUN RANGE" predators. Basically what I'm saying is if you have a shotgun that is by chance shooting a good pattern at 60-70 yards or so you are basically shooting a rifle at ranges under 25 or so. I may go back to my tight chokes after a short while but for now I'm choking my shotgun for 15-45 yard coyotes and I'm leaving the 70 yard coyotes to the rifle.
Sorry to go on so long. I wrote this in a hurry and in between work and phone calls so I hope it makes since.
Good Hunting and God Bless,
Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
R Buker
New member
Good post Byron. You are right that when we talk about extending range, we are likely only talking a few yards. There isn't a gun or load yet that will make a shotgun a 100 yard gun.
I agree with most everything you've said except for the larger pellet still penetrating farther than a small pellet even though it drags in a lot of hair. I have noticed a difference in our northern coyotes and southern coyotes with how thick the hair is. In our fluffy critters, there's no way that's true. The small stuff will go in farther.
But, the difference can be minimal. The bottom line is like you said: Get to know your gun and your load and know what it's capable of and what it's not. And, keep shooting as long as the critter shows signs of life. Excellent point.
Randy
I agree with most everything you've said except for the larger pellet still penetrating farther than a small pellet even though it drags in a lot of hair. I have noticed a difference in our northern coyotes and southern coyotes with how thick the hair is. In our fluffy critters, there's no way that's true. The small stuff will go in farther.
But, the difference can be minimal. The bottom line is like you said: Get to know your gun and your load and know what it's capable of and what it's not. And, keep shooting as long as the critter shows signs of life. Excellent point.
Randy
derbyacresbob
Well-known member
Byron, check out the two patterns I shot at 25 yards with the 1-1/2 oz of lead BB's. I wanted to see the difference between modified choke and the Carlson's Dead Coyote choke. There was not that much difference at 25 yards. I have shot modified for years and was about to go back to modified and retire my Carlson's dead coyote choke. After seeing that the modified and Dead Coyote choke were so close in width of pattern at 25 yards, I am going to stick with the Carlson's dead Coyote choke. The Carlson's Dead Coyote choke really out performs the modified choke at 40 yards.
Extended modified choke at 25 yards, 1-1/2 oz of lead BB's.
Carlson's Dead Coyote choke at 25 yards, 1-1/2 oz of lead BB's.
R Buker, for the size coyotes I hunt I really like lead or copper coated lead BB's. I think the Remington Wingmaster HD in 3" BB's should work very good.
Extended modified choke at 25 yards, 1-1/2 oz of lead BB's.
Carlson's Dead Coyote choke at 25 yards, 1-1/2 oz of lead BB's.
R Buker, for the size coyotes I hunt I really like lead or copper coated lead BB's. I think the Remington Wingmaster HD in 3" BB's should work very good.
NM Leon
New member
Not quite on topic, but following Byrons comment, the only (rare) time I use a shotgun is if I'm going into very heavy cover (tamarisk) where shots will ALWAYS be at 20 yds or less (usually lots less cause you can't see further than that). I use a cylinder Mossburg 500 with a 20" barrel and #4 buck, and have used BB on occasion. No problems. Beyond that (99% of the time) I use a rifle.
The hairy gelatin would be an interesting experiment. I suspect that larger pellets would still work better because I suspect the comparison isn't large hairy shot vs smaller bald shot. I imagine they would both pick up hair and would (probably/maybe?) be affected proportionally. The smaller pellet wouldn't need to pick up much hair to be affected as much or more as the larger pellet just because there is less mass being affected.
The hairy gelatin would be an interesting experiment. I suspect that larger pellets would still work better because I suspect the comparison isn't large hairy shot vs smaller bald shot. I imagine they would both pick up hair and would (probably/maybe?) be affected proportionally. The smaller pellet wouldn't need to pick up much hair to be affected as much or more as the larger pellet just because there is less mass being affected.
GC
Well-known member
Byron,
Good to see you posting again and appreciate your input. We're all glad things are improving for you and yours and hope everything is going well. In real close quarters I'm sure many of us could loosen the choke a little and benefit from it. Oh, the advantages of a twin barrel gun! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Randy,
Friend... no peeing match, it is a discussion. I appreciate your knowledge and input also. With that said, your post was all over the place, I sorta gave up on it. I probably didn't understand your point, however, I do know you can't compare a 3 1/2" .10 gauge loading of one sort, to a 3" .12 gauge loading of another kind. Keep it apples to apples... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
My point was that I don't see the Remington load being so superior to Dead Coyote. Here's why, a green shell (Remington) with 1 1/2 ounces of T-shot at 1,300 fps is about the same as a brown shell (Dead Coyote) with 1 1/2 ounces of T-shot at 1,300 fps. Apples to apples there right? Hevi-Shot also makes high velocity BB waterfowl loads we've been discussing for a year or so on various shotgun threads. I ran across some info that because of the slick coating that Hevi-Shot applies to their shot to prevent it from scratching the interior of barrels, the shot doesn't pull feathers or hair like other material does, such as plain lead, copper, or even nickle plating. Waterfowlers claim to see a difference in feathers pulled into ducks and geese as opposed to steel. This I don't know about firsthand, just found that interesting. If the Hevi-Shot is harder WITHOUT being so brittle as to break up on bones, and nobody has ever mentioned that before, then I think it will out penetrate a pellet that upsets and loses shape. Byron says the Remington HD is also very hard, cool! I wouldn't argue that it isn't going to be a excellent load. I think this is all exciting stuff for us shotgunners and much is left for discovery. There is a poster here, rem870, that I think has been using some of the HD type stuff for coyotes for awhile, I wish he'd find this thread and chime in with his experiences. Gary Clevenger should also add to this discussion, he's killing a bunch with shotguns.
I thought that Friday I was going to the range with a half dozen chokes, my two Benelli shotguns, and some Federal Premium buffered plated lead No. Four Buck, a box of Dead Coyote, and a box of the Remington HD BB's I picked up at a local sporting goods store. It was going to be patterning heaven...
Unfortunately, that wasn't to be. I didn't get my day off work. On the way home from work I stopped at a local Conservation Area with the intention of doing some impromptu shooting. Nobody was there so I grabbed the Benelli Tactical and screwed a Kick's Buck Kicker choke tube in. I ordered a new Kick's in .680" for this gun and received a .685" instead - ordering goof. I decided to shoot it anyway and plan on returning the choke next week for the correct one. Anyway, I stepped a long 45 steps off and placed a box with a target stapled on it against a large fallen log. I shot three shots of Dead Coyote, changing the target each time. I was preparing to shoot some of the No. Four Buck when a truck with a boat and a family pulled into the parking lot of the lake. I didn't want to alarm them or ruin their evening with shotgun blast, and, since I wasn't really set-up properly anyway, I called it quits and came on home.
Here is a target, Dead Coyote T's, .12 gauge 3" inch from an 18 1/2" inch Benelli M1S90 Tactical barrel, Kick's .685" choke. I know from pacing things off in the past that I was pretty accurately about 44 actual yards. The black circle is 8" and has 24 pellet strikes, the outer scoring ring is 12" and all told there are 37 pellet strikes within that 12" circle at point of aim. Not too bad for a start...
Good to see you posting again and appreciate your input. We're all glad things are improving for you and yours and hope everything is going well. In real close quarters I'm sure many of us could loosen the choke a little and benefit from it. Oh, the advantages of a twin barrel gun! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Randy,
Friend... no peeing match, it is a discussion. I appreciate your knowledge and input also. With that said, your post was all over the place, I sorta gave up on it. I probably didn't understand your point, however, I do know you can't compare a 3 1/2" .10 gauge loading of one sort, to a 3" .12 gauge loading of another kind. Keep it apples to apples... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
My point was that I don't see the Remington load being so superior to Dead Coyote. Here's why, a green shell (Remington) with 1 1/2 ounces of T-shot at 1,300 fps is about the same as a brown shell (Dead Coyote) with 1 1/2 ounces of T-shot at 1,300 fps. Apples to apples there right? Hevi-Shot also makes high velocity BB waterfowl loads we've been discussing for a year or so on various shotgun threads. I ran across some info that because of the slick coating that Hevi-Shot applies to their shot to prevent it from scratching the interior of barrels, the shot doesn't pull feathers or hair like other material does, such as plain lead, copper, or even nickle plating. Waterfowlers claim to see a difference in feathers pulled into ducks and geese as opposed to steel. This I don't know about firsthand, just found that interesting. If the Hevi-Shot is harder WITHOUT being so brittle as to break up on bones, and nobody has ever mentioned that before, then I think it will out penetrate a pellet that upsets and loses shape. Byron says the Remington HD is also very hard, cool! I wouldn't argue that it isn't going to be a excellent load. I think this is all exciting stuff for us shotgunners and much is left for discovery. There is a poster here, rem870, that I think has been using some of the HD type stuff for coyotes for awhile, I wish he'd find this thread and chime in with his experiences. Gary Clevenger should also add to this discussion, he's killing a bunch with shotguns.
I thought that Friday I was going to the range with a half dozen chokes, my two Benelli shotguns, and some Federal Premium buffered plated lead No. Four Buck, a box of Dead Coyote, and a box of the Remington HD BB's I picked up at a local sporting goods store. It was going to be patterning heaven...
Unfortunately, that wasn't to be. I didn't get my day off work. On the way home from work I stopped at a local Conservation Area with the intention of doing some impromptu shooting. Nobody was there so I grabbed the Benelli Tactical and screwed a Kick's Buck Kicker choke tube in. I ordered a new Kick's in .680" for this gun and received a .685" instead - ordering goof. I decided to shoot it anyway and plan on returning the choke next week for the correct one. Anyway, I stepped a long 45 steps off and placed a box with a target stapled on it against a large fallen log. I shot three shots of Dead Coyote, changing the target each time. I was preparing to shoot some of the No. Four Buck when a truck with a boat and a family pulled into the parking lot of the lake. I didn't want to alarm them or ruin their evening with shotgun blast, and, since I wasn't really set-up properly anyway, I called it quits and came on home.
Here is a target, Dead Coyote T's, .12 gauge 3" inch from an 18 1/2" inch Benelli M1S90 Tactical barrel, Kick's .685" choke. I know from pacing things off in the past that I was pretty accurately about 44 actual yards. The black circle is 8" and has 24 pellet strikes, the outer scoring ring is 12" and all told there are 37 pellet strikes within that 12" circle at point of aim. Not too bad for a start...