A Watergate For Obama?

...HunterBear71...may I ask what the 71 in your user name stands for?? I facetiously asked once if it was your IQ, and, if so, stated that your IQ was 4 points below Forrest Gump; however this time I am wondering if it is the year you were born??

Were you, in fact, born in 1971? If so, you were still in Pampers when all of the Watergate hub-bub was going on. I was in the Army, stationed at Fort Meade, Maryland during this time-frame. As a matter of fact, I took my NCO Promotion Board interview the very day before Nixon resigned.

Being "very aware of the minutiae surrounding Watergate" does not necessarily mean that you were correctly informed.

Is it possible that the same scenario may apply here??
 
Soon after O appointed Hillary she started laying the groundwork for this. If you remember all she said about guns from the US being smuggled into Mexico for the cartels. The whole F & F was laid out to supply guns to the cartels so she could prove that we had to have more gun control, their policy on open borders doesn't help. The whole corrupt O administration is in on this.
 
Updated numbers from a Reuters article. 122 U.S. guns found at Mexican crime scenes from the operation and a dozen at U.S. crime scenes.

Not only was the operation not keeping guns from crossing the border, they weren't even stopping the guns that stayed on this side of the border. Who was running this fiasco?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/26/us-usa-guns-mexico-idUSTRE76P33T20110726

(Reuters) - At least 122 firearms from a botched U.S. undercover operation have been found at crime scenes in Mexico or intercepted en route to drug cartels there, a Republican congressional report issued on Tuesday said.

Mexican authorities found AK-47 assault rifles, powerful .50 caliber rifles and other weapons as early as November 2009 that were later linked to the U.S. sting operation to trace weapons crossing the border to Mexico, the report said.

Guns from the program, dubbed "Operation Fast and Furious," were also found at the scene of the murder of a U.S. Border Patrol agent in the border state of Arizona last December. It is unclear if they were the weapons responsible for his death.

U.S. authorities set up the undercover operation in 2009 to try to track guns bought in Phoenix on behalf of Mexican drug cartels, but many of the weapons were never traced after they left the hands of the initial buyer.

The sting has become an embarrassment for the Obama administration and its Justice Department, rather than a victory in stemming the illegal flow of weapons to Mexico.

It has also hurt ties with Mexico, which has been battling the cartels in a war in which tens of thousands have died.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and federal prosecutors had hoped the sting would help them track gun buyers reselling weapons to cartels. But U.S. ATF agents did not see many of the purchases or follow many of the guns after the initial purchaser re-sold them.

At least 122 firearms bought by suspected gun traffickers were found at Mexican crime scenes or caught going to the cartels in 48 separate instances, according to the report done for the House of Representatives Oversight Committee and the Senate Judiciary Committee senior Republican Charles Grassley.

Of the 2,000 weapons sold to the suspected gun traffickers, just over half remain unaccounted for, the report added. The ATF was unaware of most of the gun sales when they occurred, according to the Justice Department, which oversees it.

"Given the vast amount of 'Operation Fast and Furious' weapons possibly still in the hands of cartel members, law enforcement officials should expect more seizures and recoveries at crime scenes," the congressional report said.

The Justice Department's internal watchdog is also conducting its own investigation of the sting.

The department said it could only confirm 96 guns recovered in Mexico that were tied to suspects being tracked in the operation, but it said that ATF did not have complete information on how many were recovered at crime scenes there.

Some 274 weapons were recovered in the United States and, so far, about a dozen were found at crime scenes, according to details given to Grassley and obtained by Reuters.

LAWMAKERS SLAM FAILURE TO FOLLOW UP

During a nearly five-hour hearing, members of the House oversight panel grilled ATF officials who ran the operation and slammed them for allowing weapons to go across the border without being fully tracked, a charge they denied.

"It seems like you knowingly allowed these weapons to get out of your control, knowingly, to someone you knew was trafficking into Mexico," said Republican Darrell Issa, the House panel's chairman. "You saw the results, you allowed it continue and now you're telling us we don't let guns walk."

ATF officials acknowledged making mistakes but the head of the Phoenix office at the time, William Newell, insisted the sting did not let weapons freely go to Mexico and the goal was to take down the network supplying the drug cartels.

"It is my opinion that we did not let guns walk," he said.

"You're entitled to your opinion, not to your facts," Issa quickly retorted.

ATF officials said that arresting initial gun buyers, known as straw buyers, would do little to take out the network. Authorities tried to track the guns but Newell acknowledged that "not in every instance" were they able to do so.

"If we pick off these one or two straw purchasers, they get replaced in a day, and we have even more guns going into Mexico," said Bill McMahon, head of the ATF's operations in the western United States at the time of the operation.

In a closed-door interview with the House panel, the acting ATF deputy director William Hoover said he sought to shut down the sting operation as early as March 2010 but acknowledged that he should have made more efforts to do so.
 
I guess I'm wrong,but I wonder if they really meant to let the guns cross the border,knowing they would have to lose track of them.I wonder if they messed up and lost them from the git go and then came up with the story of a sting plan to cover up stupidity.
 
No tn, the only scenario that makes any sense at all was that it was deliberate.

ATF agents were on the radio telling their superiors that the guns were about to cross the border and were told to "stand down". That means it's not "he said/he said" it's everybody heard it.

I can't think of a single mitigating factor that would make this just an operation that went awry, can any of you (HB)?

As far as I can see, this was an operation designed to place weapons purchased by straw buyers in the U.S. in the hands of the cartels, and we'll be paying the price for this operation in the cost of lives lost on both sides of the border for many years.

As far as I can see, the only way this operation was a failure (from the administration's point of view) was that it got exposed.

This is so much worse than Watergate that it doesn't even bear comparison (hundreds of people have been MURDERED). Amazing isn't it that the Obamamedia isn't all over it?
 
Some strange parallels here.

Nov. 17, 1973 -- Declaring that "I am not a crook," President Nixon vigorously defended his record in the Watergate case tonight and said he had never profited from his public service.

"I have earned every cent. And in all of my years of public life I have never obstructed justice," Mr. Nixon said.

"People have got to know whether or not their President is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook. I've earned everything I've got."

Coming soon??? More deja moo (the feeling that you've heard this BS before.)
Washington D.C. upcoming date -- Declaring that "I am not a crook," President Obama vigorously defended his record in the Fast and Furious case tonight and said he had never profited from his public service.

"I have earned every cent. And in all of my years of public life I have never obstructed justice," Mr. Obama said.

"People have got to know whether or not their President is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook. I've earned everything I've got. My administration has been one of complete Transparency."
 
I have done quite a bit of research into this debacle and still feel like some element of intent is missing. I really don't believe that it was an operation designed to supply weapons to the drug cartels. If that were the objective, many more weapons could have been supplied in a much more direct manner. It was a short sighted sting operation without the resources or awareness for adequate closure.The comparisons to Watergate fail on several levels but the media is reporting on this daily.I would imagine that the guns were allowed to walk in order to continue the sting.
 
Quote:I would imagine that the guns were allowed to walk in order to continue the sting.
Please explain how that "sting" was supposed to have worked HB.

How would the operation have proceeded if things had not "gone wrong"? Given that this as not a joint operation with the Mexican government, what possible scenario would have allowed ATF to track these weapons to major cartel members?
 
Even if the BATF personnel had been able to 'track' the weapons to individual cartel members, what were they expecting to do with the knowledge....Certainly they had no authority to arrest the individuals or to take possession of the specific items...

Since this was not a joint effort with the Mexican government, any officer that they contacted would have likely been on the cartel's payroll, or his superior would have been...

Just face it, the DoJ really screwed the pooch on this one, as they have on several other incidents, in the name of diversity, hope, and change...and I have a distinct feeling that this was a plan cooked up between Obama and Holder, then handed off to the BATF...
 
Yes OT.There has to be more to this.Like you and Leon have said,I don't know how the sting deal could have been expected to work as explained so far.My thought still are that something went wrong early in the deal or something or I don't know what but it just don't make any sense.They had to know as soon as the guns went into Mex they were gone.
 
"They had to know as soon as the guns went into Mex they were gone."

That has to make one wonder why they were told to stand down when they saw the guns going into Mexico. Something about that order makes me believe they wanted them to cross the border in the first place.
 
Originally Posted By: HunterBear71I have done quite a bit of research into this debacle and still feel like some element of intent is missing. I really don't believe that it was an operation designed to supply weapons to the drug cartels. If that were the objective, many more weapons could have been supplied in a much more direct manner. It was a short sighted sting operation without the resources or awareness for adequate closure.The comparisons to Watergate fail on several levels but the media is reporting on this daily.I would imagine that the guns were allowed to walk in order to continue the sting.


You need to do more research.
Here's the complete hearing from Tuesday in three parts:

Part One

Part Two

Part Three

Pay attention to who on the committee asks pertinent questions and who is calling for more gun laws.

The Players

Do you recall the news from last year concerning U.S. guns going to Mexico, and how something needed to be done?
The numbers and the details of these reports were fabricated to suit an anti gun law agenda.

Screen-shot-2011-07-14-at-10.05.07-AM-1024x352.png



This operation was an assault on your 2A rights. It is still being spun by people of a certain political affiliation, as they call for more laws.
Anyone who says otherwise is either ill informed or has an agenda.

What would have happened if U.S. agents hadn't been killed and if whistle blowers hadn't come forward?
There are still hundreds if not thousands of Mexican nationals murdered by these weapons and these weapons are still on the street.
Who condones these deaths to further their agenda? At what lengths will these people go to take your rights?

We now have a link directly to the White House.

NewellToOReilly3September2010.jpg


Under the radar, indeed.

This assault on our rights, and the unspeakable numbers of murders associated with it, demand justice.
I hope everyone involved gets what is due to them.

For more information on this treason here's a few links:

CleanUpATF.org

Sipsey Street Irregulars

130+ page thread on AR15.com

These are all updated daily as new information comes out.
Tell every gun owner you know about this case.
I believe this is a true battle for the future of our republic.

Watergate pales in comparison.


 
The last attack on the 2nd started when Obama's party started preaching about the flow of guns into Mexico from the US. What they failed to mention was the government was supplying the guns. Where they screwed up was involving far too many people to keep it quite. Not very good planning on their part. I expect more deviousness from my politicians.

On the other hand, nothing will come of this and that's a crime in itself. Hopefully it will hurt enough in his re-election efforts and between stunts like this and the economic meltdown he created I can't see him winning another election. I'd hate to give him four more years to hatch a better plan to destroy the Constitution....he might be successful.
 
Originally Posted By: HunterBear71I don't believe that any proof exists that the administration 'deliberately' supplied criminal organizations. I am very aware of the minutiae surrounding Watergate. The 'cover-up' in this situation is a conservative conspiracy theory.

HB, I understand your last post seems to retract this and other statements. I can't tell if that post is a true concession or if you are being factitious so I'd like to ask...

If nobody did anything wrong here, then why is Holder and the chief administrator denying any knowledge of the operation when the record clearly demonstrates they did indeed know about and support Operation Gun Runner?

And once again, there is the question of intent: What, exactly, WAS the intended result of this operation?

Were they trying to prove the drug cartels were up to something illegal?

Maybe they wanted to bust somebody for failure to pay sales tax?

As it's been pointed out before, the only reasonable conclusion is the real target was the 2nd Amendment.

Andy
 
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