60gr V-Max performance on coyotes in the .223 Rem only [Oh no, not AGAIN!]

Originally Posted By: DAAJeremy is like EF Hutton. When he talks, people listen. He even has me wondering if I'm in my right mind for hating on the Vmax as a coyote bullet. Maybe since all I ever tried was the 55, never the 40, I can claim righteous ignorance
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. - DAA

Yeah, but lately he's spending entirely too much time doing
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and not enough time tellin' us about it. Sure do miss his posts.

C'mon, Jeremy, just skip that last stand and drag out the computer; your fans are anxiously awaiting your posts & pics.
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ETA: Never tried the Vmax but to steer my post back to subject at hand, I really like the .55 gr. NBT's in the AR and 125 NBT's in 308 & 30-06. Suspect the solid base probably provides a bit of added insurance against splash.

Regards,
Clarence

 
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Notice Jeremy shoots those 40s with a rifle, not a short barreled AR15. I think the velocity plays a key role in the quick kills.
 
Originally Posted By: YellowhammerI have used the 60 v-max extensively loaded by Black Hills. I have killed many coyotes, bobcats, hogs, deer, fox and coons.


I have shot deer and hogs behind the shoulder and gotten exits. Most of the time on bobcats and coyotes I get a pin hole entrance and no exit and DRT.


this i can not figure out. exits on hogs and deer but not on coyotes and scrawny bobcats. don't seem right. lol
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGNotice Jeremy shoots those 40s with a rifle, not a short barreled AR15. I think the velocity plays a key role in the quick kills.



I have 20 inch ar-15, with 2200 powder 5.56 loads at 3750fps DRT on coyotes. CFE at .223 loads 3300fps not so good.
 
Originally Posted By: old catOriginally Posted By: DiRTY DOGNotice Jeremy shoots those 40s with a rifle, not a short barreled AR15. I think the velocity plays a key role in the quick kills.



I have 20 inch ar-15, with 2200 powder 5.56 loads at 3750fps DRT on coyotes. CFE at .223 loads 3300fps not so good.

3750 is 22-250 speeds and there in lies the difference in killing and gimping. I have never seen those kind of speeds out of a 223.
 
Here is why I opt for a tougher bullet in 22 caliber. I have called in a Tule Bull elk, black bears, several lions, too many deer to count. These animals come in wanting to stomp you or eat you. I had the where with all to not kill any of them, not in season or no tags.

I have shot and lost a lot of coyotes, seen more lost by hunting partners. I will opt for a "practical" decision of having a good tough enough bullet, and I think that the 60g V max would be a very practical bullet in a 22/250 AI or Creed around 3700 fps. However, the first one that I saw blow up on a hide, I would put the whole lot# up for sale, try a different lot #. One thing for sure, a 60g Hornady SP will NOT blow up...no down side, neither will a Sierra 40g spt, 40g HP, or a 45g spt. Marketing has created a craze to shoot a poly tip bullet for better bc.

RPM and how smooth the bore is MAY factor in how effective a bullet can be. Some of the cheap AR uppers and factory barrels in a bore scope look like they were cut with a dull drill bit with chatter and gouges not only in the throat but also in the lands and grooves. A rough finish will tear up a bullet jacket and make that bullet more apt to blow up on contact, as I found in my Colt AR's.

Another factor when talking about a favorite bullet is distances that you take shots. By far, if you walk out and make stands, the average distance is more like 80 yards to 125 yards. Lighter bullet weights work well for these distances, but as distance increases, speed bleeds off, the more the wind effects the bullet, and the smaller the temporary wound channel gets.

A guy hunting in Washington state has a very different need than a guy that hunts the brush in Arizona, you can take that to the bank. Now throw in the open plains of Montana with heavy winds blowing most of the time where a 22/250 AI or Creed with 75g A max would be right at home.

I will opt for horse power and a good bullet. Right now, I shoot a 700 sps stainless with a 55g Nosler at 3475 fps, I worked up a load with the 40g Nosler at 3800 fps, only killed crows with this load.

Like DAA, I claim ignorance with the 60g V max, but killed many with a 60g Berger at 3700 fps with a 12T 22/250 AI...NOT a fur friendly load and they never blew up on the surface, never.

Over the years, I learned to fear certain things on bullet impacts:

A. a frontal shot where the bullet hits the solid bone, square resulting in little penetration on certain bullets

B. running away shots where the bullet hits the thick hip joint resulting on NO penetration

C. solid broadside shoulder shots, many bullets will not penetrate, they may lay down and get up

D. high rib shots, some bullets blow up and no penetration, below the spine, and above the vitals
E. hitting a coyote slightly behind the diaphragm to a solid gut shot, with a resulting run off. This happens with minimal calibers and bullets with small temporary wound cavities and is more relevant with 17 and 22 calibers of light bullet weights and lower velocities. Most would call it a bad hit, I call it not enough gun.

A guy that hunts in an area with a very high population density and shrug off 10 losses without even thinking about it. A guy that only gets a chance to shoot 10 per year will never forget a single run off.

When I was hunting in the late 70's saving pelts in the S.W. desserts, I shot a 223 with a load of 26.5g of Win 748 with a 55g Winchester SP(3000 fps and rarely if ever penetrated a coyote), 17 Mach 4's loaded with 25g Bergers, along with custom and factory 17 Remingtons with 25g Remington match and 25g Bergers. When we saw coyotes working at ranges of 250 yards, the joy was in coxing them in closer and using attractants to get them in closer. At that time, a dessert coyote was worth anywhere from $35-$50, N. Nevada cats were worth $450, and red fox up to $125.

This is a hobby, and you can take it to any level you want, and I would hope that you would be honest with yourself in bullet performance as how it relates to you your own personal circumstances/needs. We did many improv autopsies, sharp buck knives would slit them open in seconds, carried rubber gloves. It would be prudent to kill 25-50 straight with a bullet before you make up your mind. If I see a bullet of any kind blow up on the surface, better choices abound! I want to have complete confidence in my bullet from shoulders to solid stomach shots as coyotes do not always stop and you have to shoot them on the move resulting in hits to the rear of the body from stopping gun during follow through or not leading them enough.

Since this thread was about a 60g V max, I would think that a great bolt gun would be a 60g V max at 3300-3500 fps( 22/250 with a 12 or faster twist), 22/250 AI or 22 Creed. I like to have complete confidence in a gut shot anchoring a coyote since walking, trotting, and running coyotes are a very real part of coyote hunting.

As you can tell, a guy that saves hides lives in a different world than I live. I really like DAA's input on the 6/284 with the 55g Nosler at 4200. I had a shooting partner that shot a 6 Rem AI with 60g Bergers going 4400 fps, but the barrel was 28" long which put a 4" hole through a coyote or larger. I HATE coyotes to run off, shot several hundred with a 270 Winchester, Remington 700 factory with 90g Hp loaded to 3500 fps with IMR 3031 that has the distinction of tearing up coyotes worse than anything I ever shot coyotes with, 3500 is the magic number.

If I were saving hides today, I would opt for a 204, 20 tactical, or 20 PPC loaded with 40g BIB bullets, or a 17 Rem or Predator shooting 30g bullets.

Some bullets are worth building a rifle around, the 20 caliber 40g BIB is one of those bullets, so is the 30g 17 caliber bullet(running fast).

 
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Originally Posted By: btech29Originally Posted By: old catOriginally Posted By: DiRTY DOGNotice Jeremy shoots those 40s with a rifle, not a short barreled AR15. I think the velocity plays a key role in the quick kills.



I have 20 inch ar-15, with 2200 powder 5.56 loads at 3750fps DRT on coyotes. CFE at .223 loads 3300fps not so good.

3750 is 22-250 speeds and there in lies the difference in killing and gimping. I have never seen those kind of speeds out of a 223.


Why not? He was talking about 40s at 3750fps which isnt difficult...
 
Originally Posted By: btech29Originally Posted By: old catOriginally Posted By: DiRTY DOGNotice Jeremy shoots those 40s with a rifle, not a short barreled AR15. I think the velocity plays a key role in the quick kills.



I have 20 inch ar-15, with 2200 powder 5.56 loads at 3750fps DRT on coyotes. CFE at .223 loads 3300fps not so good.

3750 is 22-250 speeds and there in lies the difference in killing and gimping. I have never seen those kind of speeds out of a 223.



Run through 2 chronys Magneto speed & Caldwell 3750fps. 500 to 600 fps below 22-250 4300fps.
 
I'm thinking the same thing with a .223 except I also have to use lead free bullets! That limits things even more. 40gr LFBT, 38gr or 45gr Lehigh or maybe a TSX of some flavor? I was considering building a 17/204 but limits things even more with lead free bullets.

Edit: I forgot to through Speer TNT green in the .224 category...
 
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Originally Posted By: old catOriginally Posted By: btech29Originally Posted By: old catOriginally Posted By: DiRTY DOGNotice Jeremy shoots those 40s with a rifle, not a short barreled AR15. I think the velocity plays a key role in the quick kills.



I have 20 inch ar-15, with 2200 powder 5.56 loads at 3750fps DRT on coyotes. CFE at .223 loads 3300fps not so good.

3750 is 22-250 speeds and there in lies the difference in killing and gimping. I have never seen those kind of speeds out of a 223.



Run through 2 chronys Magneto speed & Caldwell 3750fps. 500 to 600 fps below 22-250 4300fps.


??? 40gr at 3750fps from a .223/5.56 and 40gr from a 22-250 at 4300fps.
 
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I think we get stuck on the fancy tipped high BC boat. A simple 55 or 60 gr sp ain't as fancy or as flat shooting, but I find their terminal performance great on coyote and jacks. I shoot the hornady 55 gr SP from a 1:8 .223, and I have never had a problem.
 
Hey, if you guys are getting 3750 out of a 223 with a 20" barrel then more power to ya. Im not questioning you, just saying I have never been able to even get close to those speeds. I personally dont like the Vmax out of a 223. If I got those kinds of speeds it might change my mind.

Years ago I use to shoot the Whitebox out of my 250. Darn good ammo by the way. Anyways, the box said 4000. I chrono'd my Model 7 with a 20" barrel and only got 3650. Breaking the 4000 mark with a 250 has been no easy feat for me personally. I have done it with a 243 shooting 55's and a 17 Tac pushing 30's. The magic does start at around 3800, which is not an easy mark to hit with any 20" barrel by my personal estimations.

I will throw out my favorite 22 cal bullet. It works great at 250 speeds. The 52g Berger match hollow point. If I did shoot a 223 that is what I would use.
 
About 5 years ago I bought my AR I use for calling. My 2 biggest complaints about the 40 gr. VMax is that the projectile starts fragmenting shooting through grass and shot penetration on coyotes facing or quartering away.

I started hunting with 75 gr. Hollow points in my AR and thought they would solve it, every round passed thru and I started losing a lot of hit coyotes. I tried 75 gr VMax wanting to stay with a heavier bullet, I was still crippling a lot that ran off and I lost the confidence to hunt with those bullets. I started using the 60 gr. VMax and they seemed to do a lot better but I always find myself going back to that old Savage. Its barrel is so long running a suppressor is like hunting with a flag pole but its weight is much more solid shooting off sticks. I also found that I am ok with not having a semi auto to throw multi-rounds at coyotes running away. I heard it said; “I don’t try to kill every coyote I see, but I do try to kill every coyote I shoot at”.

I did not want to alter my old Savage so I just decided to just buy another and cut down the barrel to run a suppressor on. I bought a model 11 trophy hunter that had the same specs as my 12FV except for the cut down barrel for my suppressor. It will not group the 40 gr. VMax for crap, it grouped the 55 gr. VMax and sp best. I started hunting with it using both and I started losing what seemed like 1 in every 3 coyotes I hit, I lost confidence in it fast and now it just sits in my safe.

Last year after deer gun season I went out to call for the first time, I had not verified my zero on my savage since before deer season, so I just took my 308 deer rifle out. Any coyote I have had to shoot twice just gets unzipped. Kinda like when I was a kid and went from plinking with my Ruger 10-22 to hand calls and an open sight 30-30. I think having confidence in what you are using along with the ability to deploy it has an effect that cannot be measured in feet per second…
 
To say shot placement is key is a given. I see people use that line to defend sub par calibers all the time. I have had the opportunity to share stands with many big killers who are very respected. Well guess what? They miss and gimp coyotes just like everyone else. The simple fact of the matter is none of us always make perfect shots. I want a gun that is somewhat forgiving.

I guide hunters as well as hunt myself. When I guide I cringe when I see guys pull out their AR's and Vmax ammo. I spend lots of time trailing wounded coyotes for others and I spent a lot trailing them for myself when I used that combo.

Shoot whatever you want. I dont try to convince anyone to use any particular caliber. I simply dont care enough to argue with folks. Keep knocking them down.
 
223 bolt gun with 24" barrel, 14T runs the 40g Nosler ballistic tips at 3800 using N133 and cci BR4 primers.

223 AI 24" runs the 40g Noslers at 4100, N133, unbelievable accuracy. 50g Noslers are doing 3800(N133) and 55's are 3700(N135).

AI's run better out of AI mags or single stack mags without modifications to an action's feedrails.

I don't know the velocity of a 223 AI, 24" bolt gun with a 60g V max..I would be guessing in the 3350-3400 fps...lots of factors.
 
I've ran my 20" LTR load of 27.7 gr of benchmark along with a 40gr NBT and it averages 3650 fps. The rifle has a 1/9 twist. Rediculous accurate load...I posted picks of my .3" 200 yard group with it on here last month. Just haven't hunted with it yet. Been too busy bow and rifle hunting whitetails.
 
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Uhh, back to basics here (from my original post): I'd like to hear from those who actually have used them (60gr V-max) in the .223 and how did/do they work to anchor the coyotes. I'd like to know why you abandoned the 60gr V-max and what bullet you went to & why.
 
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