doggin coyotes
Well-known member
I gotta feeling this thread is just getting a good start.
5.56-6x45 questions
- Thread starter Scrypt
- Start date
mj36639
New member
Quote:My next rifle will surely be 6x45 build, though, it will not likely be an AR and will probably have a 20-26” barrel. These next questions are regarding the future build.
The maximum grain recommended to fit OAL standard mag is 95gr, correct?
The twist rate recommended is 1:10?
To gain the most accuracy while maintaining higher terminal ballistics out to the furthest ranges of this round, it is my assumption that my round of choice- magazine fed, is 75-95gr out of a 24-26” 1:10 twist. Your thoughts?
With all things being ideal, what velocity should I expect from a 1:10twist 24-26 barrel in various grain bullets?
What is the maximum moral range for hunting out of a 24-26” barrel in this caliber?
Max range for target?
Any other guidance, corrections, or recommended reading you can advise?
The heaviest bullets I have loaded to magazine length in an AR are 95 grain Nosler Ballistic tips at about 2475 FPS. I have also worked up loads for 75, 85, 87, and 90 grain bullets. I have found that bullets around 85 grains have the best combination of velocity, ballistic coefficient, and sectional density for medium game. My go to loads are the Barnes 85 grain TSX and Hornady 87 grain V-Max at 2750-2800 FPS through my 20 inch barrel.
I think you would be better served with a barrel in the 18-22 inch range. Barrel lengths beyond that will show diminishing returns in velocity and be less manageable in the field.
In order to decide what is maximum practical hunting range for my 6x45 I look at the minimum expansion velocity for the bullet I am using. In my case the 85 grain Barnes TSX needs a minimum of 1900 FPS for any expansion(Nosler Partition 1800 FPS). With my muzzle velocity of 2800 FPS that bullet will drop to 1900 FPS at about 300 yards. That is my maximum range. Then I consider my own abilities in shooting, range estimation, and familiarity with my scope and bullet trajectory, bullet penetration and animal size and adjust down accordingly. Thus my max practical range may be up to 300 yards, more likely less, but never more. That is how I determine my maximum practical hunting range for any cartridge when hunting deer or elk.
The maximum grain recommended to fit OAL standard mag is 95gr, correct?
The twist rate recommended is 1:10?
To gain the most accuracy while maintaining higher terminal ballistics out to the furthest ranges of this round, it is my assumption that my round of choice- magazine fed, is 75-95gr out of a 24-26” 1:10 twist. Your thoughts?
With all things being ideal, what velocity should I expect from a 1:10twist 24-26 barrel in various grain bullets?
What is the maximum moral range for hunting out of a 24-26” barrel in this caliber?
Max range for target?
Any other guidance, corrections, or recommended reading you can advise?
The heaviest bullets I have loaded to magazine length in an AR are 95 grain Nosler Ballistic tips at about 2475 FPS. I have also worked up loads for 75, 85, 87, and 90 grain bullets. I have found that bullets around 85 grains have the best combination of velocity, ballistic coefficient, and sectional density for medium game. My go to loads are the Barnes 85 grain TSX and Hornady 87 grain V-Max at 2750-2800 FPS through my 20 inch barrel.
I think you would be better served with a barrel in the 18-22 inch range. Barrel lengths beyond that will show diminishing returns in velocity and be less manageable in the field.
In order to decide what is maximum practical hunting range for my 6x45 I look at the minimum expansion velocity for the bullet I am using. In my case the 85 grain Barnes TSX needs a minimum of 1900 FPS for any expansion(Nosler Partition 1800 FPS). With my muzzle velocity of 2800 FPS that bullet will drop to 1900 FPS at about 300 yards. That is my maximum range. Then I consider my own abilities in shooting, range estimation, and familiarity with my scope and bullet trajectory, bullet penetration and animal size and adjust down accordingly. Thus my max practical range may be up to 300 yards, more likely less, but never more. That is how I determine my maximum practical hunting range for any cartridge when hunting deer or elk.
mj36639
New member
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: mj36639
Not according to DPMS.
Quote:17. Is there a difference between 5.56mm and .223 Rem?
Despite external dimensions being identical, military 5.56mm ammunition is a higher pressure round than commercial .223. To accommodate this, 5.56 barrels have a longer throat. The bullet doesn't engage the rifling until slightly further down the barrel. You can shoot 223 ammo from a 5.56 barrel, but 5.56 ammo in a .223 barrel could lead to high pressure failures, and higher wear on the rifle. The advantage of a .223-barrel, when paired with quality .223 ammunition, often offers greater accuracy.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/Frequently-Asked_ep_55-1.html
Since you dragged this up, tell me something...
Just EXACTLY, what is a "high pressure failure", and what is "higher wear on the rifle".
And why hasn't the tens of millions of military 5.56 that has been fired in standard 223 rifles caused an outbreak of these problems.
Inquiring minds want to know
.
I don't work for DPMS so why don't you call them and ask. Im sure their number is listed in your user manual.
Not according to DPMS.
Quote:17. Is there a difference between 5.56mm and .223 Rem?
Despite external dimensions being identical, military 5.56mm ammunition is a higher pressure round than commercial .223. To accommodate this, 5.56 barrels have a longer throat. The bullet doesn't engage the rifling until slightly further down the barrel. You can shoot 223 ammo from a 5.56 barrel, but 5.56 ammo in a .223 barrel could lead to high pressure failures, and higher wear on the rifle. The advantage of a .223-barrel, when paired with quality .223 ammunition, often offers greater accuracy.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/Frequently-Asked_ep_55-1.html
Since you dragged this up, tell me something...
Just EXACTLY, what is a "high pressure failure", and what is "higher wear on the rifle".
And why hasn't the tens of millions of military 5.56 that has been fired in standard 223 rifles caused an outbreak of these problems.
Inquiring minds want to know
.
I don't work for DPMS so why don't you call them and ask. Im sure their number is listed in your user manual.
mj36639
New member
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: mj36639
Not according to DPMS.
Quote:17. Is there a difference between 5.56mm and .223 Rem?
Despite external dimensions being identical, military 5.56mm ammunition is a higher pressure round than commercial .223. To accommodate this, 5.56 barrels have a longer throat. The bullet doesn't engage the rifling until slightly further down the barrel. You can shoot 223 ammo from a 5.56 barrel, but 5.56 ammo in a .223 barrel could lead to high pressure failures, and higher wear on the rifle. The advantage of a .223-barrel, when paired with quality .223 ammunition, often offers greater accuracy.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/Frequently-Asked_ep_55-1.html
Since you dragged this up, tell me something...
Just EXACTLY, what is a "high pressure failure", and what is "higher wear on the rifle".
And why hasn't the tens of millions of military 5.56 that has been fired in standard 223 rifles caused an outbreak of these problems.
Inquiring minds want to know
.
http://www.bushmaster.com/support/faqs.asp
Not according to DPMS.
Quote:17. Is there a difference between 5.56mm and .223 Rem?
Despite external dimensions being identical, military 5.56mm ammunition is a higher pressure round than commercial .223. To accommodate this, 5.56 barrels have a longer throat. The bullet doesn't engage the rifling until slightly further down the barrel. You can shoot 223 ammo from a 5.56 barrel, but 5.56 ammo in a .223 barrel could lead to high pressure failures, and higher wear on the rifle. The advantage of a .223-barrel, when paired with quality .223 ammunition, often offers greater accuracy.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/Frequently-Asked_ep_55-1.html
Since you dragged this up, tell me something...
Just EXACTLY, what is a "high pressure failure", and what is "higher wear on the rifle".
And why hasn't the tens of millions of military 5.56 that has been fired in standard 223 rifles caused an outbreak of these problems.
Inquiring minds want to know
.
http://www.bushmaster.com/support/faqs.asp
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Scrypt
New member
Glad to know there's some consensus for the Barnes.
So, the V-Max is shorter and heavier than the Barnes; more space in the brass and less bearing surface would mean more velocity from the Hornady's; do they retain their weight as well as Barnes claims the TSX and TTSX do?
I'm likin' the idea of blue tips for the .223 and red for the 6
So, the V-Max is shorter and heavier than the Barnes; more space in the brass and less bearing surface would mean more velocity from the Hornady's; do they retain their weight as well as Barnes claims the TSX and TTSX do?
I'm likin' the idea of blue tips for the .223 and red for the 6
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CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: Scrypt
"Signs of high pressure include: primers that are blown-out or flowed back into the firing pin hole, flattened primers, powder stains or signs of high-pressure jets (the last only visible under magnification). High pressure can also cause violent cycling in gas guns, high cyclic rates in auto weapons, and cases that are bulged or suffer head or neck separations (these can also be caused by other things, but primer and powder anomalies are almost always signs of unsafe pressures)"-www.weaponsman.com
Why is it that no one sees these mysterious signs??
If you know anything about chambers, you will know that most factory chambers are much longer than what you show - try seating a bullet to touch the lands in a factory rifle... it's a long way out there.
You need to learn to debate stuff with your own knowledge and experence, not by surfing the net.
.
.
"Signs of high pressure include: primers that are blown-out or flowed back into the firing pin hole, flattened primers, powder stains or signs of high-pressure jets (the last only visible under magnification). High pressure can also cause violent cycling in gas guns, high cyclic rates in auto weapons, and cases that are bulged or suffer head or neck separations (these can also be caused by other things, but primer and powder anomalies are almost always signs of unsafe pressures)"-www.weaponsman.com
Why is it that no one sees these mysterious signs??
If you know anything about chambers, you will know that most factory chambers are much longer than what you show - try seating a bullet to touch the lands in a factory rifle... it's a long way out there.
You need to learn to debate stuff with your own knowledge and experence, not by surfing the net.
.
.
venatic
Active member
I too find it curious that a while back when this came up I could not find any instances where firing a 5.56 in a .223 chamber has EVER caused an issue. I did however find where some Federal.223 ammo fired in 5.56 MARKED chambers has had some problems and they were recalled.
While I do understand "the Lawyer Speak" from manufacturers this seems to be a cover your arse warning to a non-extistent issue. JMO.
While I do understand "the Lawyer Speak" from manufacturers this seems to be a cover your arse warning to a non-extistent issue. JMO.
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: ScryptYes, I admitted this was not from experience but from what I've read. I'm not debating, but so far there are two manufacturers saying it and this is the data I have available; I have no opinion or experience either way.
Well... maybe it would be good to give advice on real experence - Nosler loading manual says it is dangerous to load military 5.56 case because they are thicker and heavier.
A call to the "Head of Ballistics" at Nosler brought out the fact hat he didn't know how much a 5.56 case weighs (they weigh the same as Winchester and Remington), and he had never loaded 5.56 cases... but there it is, from a "real" loading manual.
There is a lot of BS on the internet, and a good part of it comes from "sources" that sound official, but when questioned, it is always, that they heard it from someone else - they haven't done any work on it.
P-L-E-A-S-E restrict your advice to stuff you actually know, not what you read somewhere.
.
Well... maybe it would be good to give advice on real experence - Nosler loading manual says it is dangerous to load military 5.56 case because they are thicker and heavier.
A call to the "Head of Ballistics" at Nosler brought out the fact hat he didn't know how much a 5.56 case weighs (they weigh the same as Winchester and Remington), and he had never loaded 5.56 cases... but there it is, from a "real" loading manual.
There is a lot of BS on the internet, and a good part of it comes from "sources" that sound official, but when questioned, it is always, that they heard it from someone else - they haven't done any work on it.
P-L-E-A-S-E restrict your advice to stuff you actually know, not what you read somewhere.
.
Scrypt
New member
I was not giving advice, mellow out brother, I was referencing the information which you called into question; nothing else.
As you can see I sited the info to its source; I think they might be more deserving of your corrections, and if they listen you'd be doing a favor to a good number of new shooters.
I appreciate your input, that's why I started this thread. Thank you.
As you can see I sited the info to its source; I think they might be more deserving of your corrections, and if they listen you'd be doing a favor to a good number of new shooters.
I appreciate your input, that's why I started this thread. Thank you.
mj36639
New member
Originally Posted By: ScryptYes, I admitted this was not from experience but from what I've read. I'm not debating, but so far there are two manufacturers saying it and this is the data I have available; I have no opinion or experience either way.
Scrypt, in any case your rifle has a 5.56 chamber so you are good to go with ammunition labeled .223 or 5.56. If you are like me your smart enough to learn new things using a variety of methods. Apparantly some guys have to touch the stove every time to "Actually Know" if it is turned on. Me, I just read the dial.
Scrypt, in any case your rifle has a 5.56 chamber so you are good to go with ammunition labeled .223 or 5.56. If you are like me your smart enough to learn new things using a variety of methods. Apparantly some guys have to touch the stove every time to "Actually Know" if it is turned on. Me, I just read the dial.
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Ridgeline17
New member
What if the 5.56 is the parent of the .223, boys, what do you think then. Instead of cutting and pasting, research the history of the 5.56x45 and I'll bet you get one [beeep] of a surprise. Research Remington .223, there is your hint. And if you don't agree with it, go back to AR-15.com where they talk that garbage.
Here is some reading material if your interested. http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw.html
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mj36639
New member
Originally Posted By: roode301Guess I live life on the edge shooting 5.56 in a 223 and 7.62 in a 308. For my next feat I will do Pop Rocks and Pop.
Roode you have that backwards again. SAAMI .308 is actually the higher pressure cartridge so caution should be used when firing it in miltary rifles designed for the 7.62x51 Nato round.
Roode you have that backwards again. SAAMI .308 is actually the higher pressure cartridge so caution should be used when firing it in miltary rifles designed for the 7.62x51 Nato round.
mj36639
New member
Originally Posted By: roode301There we go savage said it must be right. Inventor of the Accu trigger what a joke.
mj your cut and paste skills are top notch!
Ruger also acknowledges there is a difference with .223 chambered Mini -14 match rifles.
http://www.ruger.com/service/FAQs.html#Q35
There you have it. I have documented that DPMS, Bushmaster, Savage, and Ruger all recognize there is a difference between SAAMI .223 and 5.56 Nato and all recommend against firing 5.56 in .223 chambered rifles. It's official sir. You have lost the debate.
mj your cut and paste skills are top notch!
Ruger also acknowledges there is a difference with .223 chambered Mini -14 match rifles.
http://www.ruger.com/service/FAQs.html#Q35
There you have it. I have documented that DPMS, Bushmaster, Savage, and Ruger all recognize there is a difference between SAAMI .223 and 5.56 Nato and all recommend against firing 5.56 in .223 chambered rifles. It's official sir. You have lost the debate.
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