.223 not enough for coyotes. makes me laugh.

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There's nothing "all of a sudden" about it as far as I can see. This has been true for several decades. The problem comes when someone tells someone else what they can't do something with. Then that person takes offense, and cries, stomps, and punches all over the place.

For me, the realization came when I got tired of center-chest thumping coyotes with a .223 only to have them run off. Frontal chest shots were one and done, but broad-side was another affair. Largely because I was shooting coyotes in the "pocket" behind the shoulder instead of IN the shoulder, and largely because .223 is just a wimpy round.

The last two coyotes I shot with my .17 remington dropped where they stood. 17HMR, .223, 50bmg... use what you want. I will too.
 
Like I said, Not trying to start an argument. But it seems when a newby comes around asking for advice on a caliber, the 223 is usually the first one that comes up. There is always going to be "something better".
 
Originally Posted By: orkanThe last two coyotes I shot with my .17 remington dropped where they stood.

the last 30 or 40 i shot with a .223 did the same. so we do have something in common.:)
 
Well, right off the bat we all know that the person in the discussion is not very knowledgeable about guns or hunting. AS for a 223 for coyote, I wonder how many have been killed with a 223 over the years. A 223 will do the job just fine, within reason, it is generally the trigger puller that's not up to the task. Would I choose a 223 for a 400-500 yd or longer shot, no I would not, nor would I choose a 22-250 for an 600-800 yd shot. A mans got to know his limitations.
 
The statement posted from the other board was taken a bit out of context. There was a little toungue in cheek included.
But yeah, to many cripples/runners for my taste. .223 is marginal for serious coyote hunting, even with good bullets, imo.
Mark
 
Originally Posted By: pyscodogit seems when a newby comes around asking for advice on a caliber, the 223 is usually the first one that comes up. There is always going to be "something better". Exactly. What is right for "new guys" isn't necessarily what is right for everyone else. However, if I were instructing a "new guy" in my neighborhood, I'd send him toward a 22-250.
smile.gif


Though if he wanted to start with his 30.06, he could. .223, 17HMR, or whatever else. The only people that get hot about this subject are those that think their thing is the only thing.
 
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotOriginally Posted By: orkanThe last two coyotes I shot with my .17 remington dropped where they stood.

the last 30 or 40 i shot with a .223 did the same. so we do have something in common.:) Indeed. If I wanted to prove to you that the .223 doesn't work for me, I'd have to get specific and explain that I'm shooting coyotes at distances that the .223 barely anchors a prairie dog. Yet why would I want to prove anything to you?

I legitimately don't.
 
Originally Posted By: orkanLack of experience, lack of definition, and lack of mutual respect is where conversations like this are born.

Experience -
You shoot enough coyotes with a .223, and then shoot enough coyotes with a .22-250... you'll definitely see the difference.

Lack of definition -
"Good enough" can not be quantified. You don't ask a specific enough question, you won't get a specific enough answer. .223Rem can kill coyotes. It will certainly not kill them as hard flat dead as a .22-250.

Lack of mutual respect -
This last one is most important. People are convinced of their own superiority these days. I talk to a ridiculous number of people about cartridges and rifles each week as a function of my profession. This last week I talked to someone that was certain a 338LM had better ballistics than a 7LRM to 1000yds. He didn't respect that I had volumes more experience than he. He's never touched a 7LRM in his life, yet knew everything about it and knew it was all bad. He didn't respect me, and I sure as heck didn't respect him. Why should anyone respect blind idiocy that completely ignores the facts? I finally hung up on him. Had I placated him, I could have no doubt sold him a rifle chambered in 338LM. Yet, when someone isn't prepared to see logic, that isn't a person I want to be associated with in any way.

To bring it to a point: If people let their actual experiences separate what they actually know, from what they think they know, it would be a lot easier to respect people's opinions. As it stands, most people regularly regurgitate things they've read or heard as if it were their own verified and personally experienced information.

To the topic at hand, this discussion requires very specific parameters to be of any value. The .223Rem can kill coyotes. It will NOT kill them as effectively in all situations, at all distances, in all locations, as a .22-250 or similar cartridge. That is a fact. This does not then define that one must not use a .223Rem. This only defines that one must know the actual capabilities of the cartridge they are choosing.

Knowing the actual capabilities requires a lot of shooting, at a lot of distances, in a lot of situations, in a lot of locations. My guess is that there are far more people that think they have a lock on the .223's capabilities than actually have a lock on it. The old "works for me" adage seems to be applied more than not. Since it's all Mr. So-and-So needs, why would anyone else need anything different?

... and so it goes. Knowing, is better than thinking you know. Don't put so much weight on what others think about your chosen cartridge. Use it, and the results will speak for themselves in due time. Once you've seen the results, do not then presume to tell others what they don't need, simply because you've fulfilled your own need.

While the 22-250 has a velocity advantage over the 223,it also has a disadvantage of bullet weights when shooting a factory 22-250 barrel since the twist rate doesn't allow the use of heavier bullets in the 22-250.
I shoot a bunch of coyotes every year at the ranch,and have never had any issue using a 223 for them,and I usually shoot them with 65-70-75 or 77 grain bullets at ranges from 50 to 350 yards.

Saying a 223 doesn't kill a coyote as dead as a 22-250 is kind of funny. It may not have the explosive impact that the 22-250 does,but that would be like me comparing the 22-250 to my 25-06. It would be lacking the same way.
 
If I wanted to prove to you that the .223 doesn't work for me, I'd have to get specific and explain that I'm shooting coyotes at distances that the .223 barely anchors a prairie dog. Yet why would I want to prove anything to you?

I legitimately don't. [/quote]

You just answered the question on why the 223 is marginal. You prefer to shoot at long range. Granted, the 223 has it limits. I prefer to get them in close. Different strokes!!
 
I'm was sitting here wondering how far it is before a 223 barley anchors a prairie dog ? Would be good to know,so I can take note for the future.
 
Originally Posted By: LONEHOWLThe statement posted from the other board was taken a bit out of context. There was a little toungue in cheek included.


Ah yup. Taken way out of context. Not even posted in whole, but edited from the original. But yeah, without knowing the players involved, and how much ball busting takes place on a regular basis, pretty much impossible to understand the context.

For the guys who think the man that said that has no experience, well, you're just plain wrong. I bet he's killed more coyotes than any two guys that have posted on this thread. And I bet you take those top two guys out of this thread and he's killed more coyotes than all the rest of you put together. Literally. I know he's way over 2,000 called coyotes killed, put it that way.

Never been impressed with the .223 on coyote, myself. But, I mostly use a .17, so I ain't gonna cast any stones
laugh.gif
.

- DAA
 
And here I was gonna buy another 222. Does anyone on this discussion sell fur ?I better get bigger and hire a seamstress !
 
... and I will now exit stage left. Every single thing I say is being taken somewhere other than intended.

Use what you want. The end.
 
Originally Posted By: Tim NeitzkeI'm was sitting here wondering how far it is before a 223 barley anchors a prairie dog ? Would be good to know,so I can take note for the future.

Well, I have taken them a shade past 700 yards with my .223 AI.

Of course, being an AI that's good for an extra 50 yards or so.

smile.gif
 
the 223 is marginal on coyotes. I have spent 2 season now with a 20" Ar 15. I shoot one for 2 reasons, first is I shoot it better in field positions than I do a traditional bolt gun. the fast followup shot is a huge bonus and has been the difference in doubling up or getting coyotes after a first round miss. I think the vertical grip is the key to me shooting it better its less torque on the gun when trying to get the perfect break on the trigger.

with all that said YES I have to do way way too many finishing shots with the AR. DON'T SAY SHOT PLACEMENT THIS OR THAT, if you do I will just chock you up into the inexperienced. your going to have bad hits no matter who you are if you shoot many coyotes. the last 2 years I have lost outright a couple coyotes each year because the 223 failed to put them down all the way and because there was too much action going on for me to get a finishing shot in them. A coyote hit bad once seems to take even more and more lead to put them down for good.

The other issue is nearly every factory loading for 223 is actually loaded on the anemic side. max pressure is only 55kpsi. that is instead of 556 nato which is 62kpsi. or even the 65kspi that other cartridges like the 270 can are specd to be loaded to. combine that with alot of guys using a 16" barrel and you find the energy of the 223 at beyond 200 yards nearly a p shooter.

I am still experimenting with a bullet I like which strikes the balance I am looking for. the hottest factory loading I found was the 53 grain hornady superformance, the problem is the bullet has the thinnest jacket around and unless the hit is perfect can lead to problems putting the coyote down. I had better luck with federal tipped varmint 50 grain, NBT loading but this load is pretty darn anemic in the speed department its barely over 3000 fps out of a 20" barrel. slow speeds and the solid base of the NBT works better but still more finishing shots than I like

last year I rolled my own I used the sierra 1330 50 grain SPT loaded to 3300 fps, This was going the other way and trying a tuff bullet. it really wasn't any better than the other options. this year I am still sticking with sierra and going to first try the blitzking and then the 52 grain sierra match if needed. Sierra bullets in this weight class have a much thicker jacket probably double the thickness of a vmax. I would use the 50 grain NBT's but they don't seem to shoot as well in my reloads.

when shooting a 22-250 or a 243 you quickly see a huge difference using a 223.
 
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Originally Posted By: orkanLack of experience, lack of definition, and lack of mutual respect is where conversations like this are born.

Experience -
You shoot enough coyotes with a .223, and then shoot enough coyotes with a .22-250... you'll definitely see the difference.

Lack of definition -
"Good enough" can not be quantified. You don't ask a specific enough question, you won't get a specific enough answer. .223Rem can kill coyotes. It will certainly not kill them as hard flat dead as a .22-250.

Lack of mutual respect -
This last one is most important. People are convinced of their own superiority these days. I talk to a ridiculous number of people about cartridges and rifles each week as a function of my profession. This last week I talked to someone that was certain a 338LM had better ballistics than a 7LRM to 1000yds. He didn't respect that I had volumes more experience than he. He's never touched a 7LRM in his life, yet knew everything about it and knew it was all bad. He didn't respect me, and I sure as heck didn't respect him. Why should anyone respect blind idiocy that completely ignores the facts? I finally hung up on him. Had I placated him, I could have no doubt sold him a rifle chambered in 338LM. Yet, when someone isn't prepared to see logic, that isn't a person I want to be associated with in any way.

To bring it to a point: If people let their actual experiences separate what they actually know, from what they think they know, it would be a lot easier to respect people's opinions. As it stands, most people regularly regurgitate things they've read or heard as if it were their own verified and personally experienced information.

To the topic at hand, this discussion requires very specific parameters to be of any value. The .223Rem can kill coyotes. It will NOT kill them as effectively in all situations, at all distances, in all locations, as a .22-250 or similar cartridge. That is a fact. This does not then define that one must not use a .223Rem. This only defines that one must know the actual capabilities of the cartridge they are choosing.

Knowing the actual capabilities requires a lot of shooting, at a lot of distances, in a lot of situations, in a lot of locations. My guess is that there are far more people that think they have a lock on the .223's capabilities than actually have a lock on it. The old "works for me" adage seems to be applied more than not. Since it's all Mr. So-and-So needs, why would anyone else need anything different?

... and so it goes. Knowing, is better than thinking you know. Don't put so much weight on what others think about your chosen cartridge. Use it, and the results will speak for themselves in due time. Once you've seen the results, do not then presume to tell others what they don't need, simply because you've fulfilled your own need.

Amen
 
Ok, I'll agree that a 22-250 will kill coyotes more effectively, on the whole, than a 223. BUT, a 22-250 or the like will NOT kill them as effectively in all situations, at all distances, in all locations, as a 6-284 or similar cartridge, either.

We can perpetuate this all the way up until we're saying the 20mm will kill coyotes more effectively, in all situations, than a 50 BMG.

I think we need to remember that the vast majority of coyotes shot are well under 400 yards and I'd be willing to bet a very large amount of those are shot under 200 yards. To assume every runner you get with a 223 would have been a DRT if it had been shot with a 22-250 is silly and just opens the door to the never ending bigger is better.
 
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