204 yah or nay?

Looking at all the "stats" posted. One thing is for sure even with foot pounds of energy the 22-250 has more killing power at distance than the .204 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

And that's without adding in momentum, where the heavier grain wins /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

Also someone made note to me that "I am comparing the heavy range of the 22-250 to the light range of the .204"

Not so. I am comparing what is shot most from each. My 22-250 will shoot a 60 grain pretty well(as well as most .204's shoot 40's). Those who own a 1-12 twist 250 (Savage...pretty common gun btw, etc.) type. may use a heavier grain yet.

The point you missed silver fox is that I do like the .204 But, in my oppinion and oppinions is all this is by any of us, including yourself and your vast shooting knowledge.

Your pushing it pretty far to compare in most area's and it's missing in killing power(big time...) and probably (not sure) penetration because it splats with it twist rate (your the rifle scientist let me know........your "oppinion").

BTW, I was being civil and found the topic some what interesting. I did take offence to some of your comments on reading etc. and assumptions made yet high regards for yourself. I bow to your greatness /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif

silver fox - BTW you sure did put words and assumptions in my mouth for me. Read my lips....I do like the .204 for one all around varmint predator rifle I like the 22-250 better. I do not think anyone needs more than one varmint, predator center fire rifle other than for playing around. And yes, I have shot the .204 enough. I only want one center fire for all varmints and predators the 22-250 fills the role best for what I do and I like to shoot long distance as far as varmint class rifles best.

The .204 is not getting "short changed" as someone thought. But, in my oppinion it is not the "one rifle" or "best of class" varmint caliber that I would choose and some want to beleive either. For a non-reloader the 22-250 is best. For someone who wants varmint/predator class killing power at long distance the .243, swift and 22-250 are best the .204 does not have the same class of smack with it's 40 grain at long distance the others do.
 
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Damn BCB,
I was going to stay out of this one one entirely - looks like you have things well in hand and all - but that DDGM that is an absolute hoot! I really gotta remeber that one! -John
 
http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/centerfire/comp_ballistics_results.asp

Silver Fox,

You did increase the velocity for the .204 on your ballistic program. Which increased the energy closer to the 22-250 by about 20%. All the factory ballistics charts I just looked at show the .204 has approx. 35% less energy (ft.lbs) at 500 yards than the 22-250 and approx. 45% more energy than the .17 rem. Which makes since for where it's placed caliber wise in-between and considering all three are hot rods. Again your chart shows the .204 with in 15 % energy factory charts show it minus 35% at 500 ........hhmmmm.
Factor in momentum and it's greater yet.
Also as one goes up in grains for all three calibers the percent difference of energy stays approximately the same, as it should.
Here is Remington's comparison of a 20, 32 & 50 grain.
Looking through post's some here are obviously light side of small bore affection attic's. To each there own, my experience has been different in hunting rather than paper and stats,charts. I will take the grains for distance and stopping them cold.
The .204 is a great varmint round that fits right in-between a .17 and .22 as it was designed, but its not a 22-250 at 500 yards (approx. 35% short) and a 22-250 is not a .243
Maybe your ballistics velocity for the .204 is right and all the factorys are wrong ? I noticed you have the 22-250 nearly the same as the factory's however.

DDGM /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Bill,

That link you posted is dead... but I went to Remington's site and ran the .204 vs. 22-250 comparison as I presume you did. here are the results that I have:

ballistic2cr.gif


how excactly do you see 35% less energy out of the .204 @ 500 yards? I only see a difference of 2.5% in ft.lbs of energy between the two (363/372)? I also notice that the .204 seems to be much "flatter" for such a small trade off in energy?

I'm not trying to get my leg chewed off here but I was just curious? You, BCB and Silverfox all seem to know your stuff and this conversation is very enlightening! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Thanks! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
By putting in all accu tips (same for all)

.17 rem - 20 grain
.204 - 32 grain
22-250 - 50 grain (because they did not have a 55 grain accu tip on the chart as others do or it would have been greater)

YOU just jumped the .204 to 40 grains but left the 22-250 at 50. Try jumping the 22-250 up to a 58 and watch the + 35 % Thats like silver fox bumping the fps of the .204 and not the 22-250. I mean think about it........yes, the .204 is a nice caliber but do you really think it is going to have as much long range kill power as a 22-250 ? I mean this is getting dumb. It's just slightly above mid-way between a .17 rem and a 22-250. Yet, to listen to a small caliber buff or .204 die hard you would think it has as much long range power. It fills a gap on the light end.........thats all. Here I will try to post the link again.
Maybe I will start a "22-250 is about the same long distance as a .243 thread.........man......this is something.
LET'S not forget that many with a Savage 1-12 twist 22-250 are shooting heavier than 60 grain and if all you are going to list the "40 grain" for the .204 than put me down for a 60 grain because my Tikka T3 Varmint 22-250 will shoot it, IN FACT that is what Tikka recomends for factory ammo.

SEE IF THIS CHART WORKS ?
Remington

Sorry to sound rude I hate text, I am sure it would be better if we were BS'ing over copy rather than text.
 
Bill,

fair enough...

that new link doesn't work either but I'll take your word on it. I didn't know you were comparing the 32 gr. ofering? I don't plan on regularly taking shots at coyotes at 500 yards with my new .204 so all of this extended long range stuff is "paper vs. plastic" for me. I'm sure the coyotes don't care what numbers are stamped on the base of the case when they get hit in the goodie basket at 150 yards /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Recoil and noise was my deciding factor in buying my new rifle, but if someone wants to hunt with me with their 22-250, 204, 220 swift, 17 rem, 300 win mag, or anything that goes "BOOM" I'd welcome ya' anytime!

Take care
 
Quote:
Bill,

fair enough...

that new link doesn't work either but I'll take your word on it. I didn't know you were comparing the 32 gr. ofering? I don't plan on regularly taking shots at coyotes at 500 yards with my new .204 so all of this extended long range stuff is "paper vs. plastic" for me. I'm sure the coyotes don't care what numbers are stamped on the base of the case when they get hit in the goodie basket at 150 yards /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Recoil and noise was my deciding factor in buying my new rifle, but if someone wants to hunt with me with their 22-250, 204, 220 swift, 17 rem, 300 win mag, or anything that goes "BOOM" I'd welcome ya' anytime!

Take care



Exactly........
Your a hunter as I am. I have been drawn into text message talk by ballistic's geeks (no offence to them) that enjoy buying a .17 Rem and trying to make it a .204 or buying a .204 and trying to make it a 22-250. By tweaking grains and powders and the re-load bench in a seemingly never ending search or switching barrels to gain fps or twist rate, gizmo's that measure fps etc.
Me ? I would just buy the one up rifle and spend the saved time in the woods or fishing. I have tore enough guns apart to "tweak" to learn I rather just buy a better factory gun and I have learned enough about ammo and ballistics to know I rather just buy quality factory ammo and spend my time in the woods,range or rivers.
Some really enjoy it however and I respect that. I appreciate the compliment of putting me in the class of silver fox and bayou boy but I am not. They are ballistics geeks and gear heads (again no offence)and enjoy it to the up-teenth degree of perfection(in their minds). I try hard not to be, rather be in the woods, one varmint predator rifle man.......common sence.

Enough of this for me........I should have seen it comming. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
 
bill1227:

Calm down - take a deep breath and you'll feel better. You were the one who posted at 7:47 Am this moring the following in response to Silverfox's post.
Quote:
Dead is dead.............who really cares ? I don't.

I like more grains some like more speed, I like heavy rifles some like light, some like ham some bacon. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Enjoy the outdoors
Bill



Since then you have posted several more times defending your newly-acquired Tikka 22-250 - with your blood pressure seemingly elevated each time - when no one has said its a bad varmint/predator cailber. In fact, last night Silverfox and I both told you that we shoot 22-250's, and in my case anyway, I have for years. Its the first true varmint/predator cartridge I ever owned.

However, to accuse someone (Silverfox) of inflating velocities like you just did in your first post responding to bl00dtrail is wrong and not very considerate. Its no more right than it was when I commented on another poster who did the same thing this morning. In bl00dtrail's case, I'm sure he just pulled the data that was relevant to him and found it to be different from what you were saying. He used a 40 grain bullet and a 50 grain bullet - you want to use 55 grains and 32 grains to make your point, and call other data elevated or distorted (not your exact words, but what you are implying).

Silverfox has shared his 204 Ruger load information with anyone who has requested it and I would guess many have found it to be valid. What reason would he have to post elevated velocities when all he has been doing is sharing extensive data with others that he has collected at his own expense? If someone doesn't like the answers, fine. But don't make accusations that you don't have adequate experience to back up.

You can rest assured that your 22-250 will kill anything that is reasonablly sized for its application in the way of predators and varmints.

Some folks have found that there are other ways to do the same thing and that those choices have advantages over other choices they have made in the past. To accuse them of inflating data to "narrow the gap" between your choice and theirs borders on the absurd.

You mentioned in an earlier post that an individual only needs one predator/varmint rifle. If you were to ever try shooting PD's with your rifle, you will find that the barrel heats very quickly with a 22-250. In a situation like that, its nice to have other rifles - in other calibers - that will do the same thing - kill PD's - while the barrel on your 22-250, or whatever, is cooling down.

I'd of had a hell of a time in my married years convincing my wife that I needed 10 or 12 heavy barreled 22-250's so I can shoot PD's several times a year. Its damn hard enough to convince her of that when they are all different calibers. But in that process I've learned that the 22-250 is not the only answer in terms of effective calibers and in my situations at least, not the best answer. And that applies to hunting/shooting other things than just PD's.

I doubt that this post will sooth your ego at this point, but I'm not going to worry about you or any trivial differences between a 204 Ruger and a 22-250 Remington that you seem to have trouble living with for some reason.

For the record, I will say this in closing: Some of the assumptions you have made are not correct. For example, many folks have found that a 40 grain .204" bullet will shoot very well in a 12" twist barrel. As I and others have said earlier, some have not had good results with them. But, many of those have found the shorter 39 grain Sierra to shoot very well and better than the longer 40 grain bulet. As a result, like I said last night, those folks wil find the true beauty of the 20 caliber rifles when they start using the heavier bullets.

Is a 204 Ruger a 22-250? No its not. But in the same vane, a 22-250 is not a 204 Ruger, either.

With that, I'm through here. You can continue to joust with windmills if you like.- BCB

PS - I saw you posted prior to me. Thanks for the ballistic geek and gear head designation. In the future, don't try PM'ing me like you did on July 19th about your newly acquired Tikka 22-250 and asking for help on what factory ammunition to purchase for it. Even though I told you at that time I haven't shot factory ammo in a 22-250 for years, I know I won't be able to help you with any other questions you may have being the way I am (a ballistic geek and a gear head). - BCB
 
BCB,

"But don't make accusations that you don't have adequate experience to back up."

And I am to assume you do ? I am sure you assume that and you know what they say about assume.


"I doubt that this post will sooth your ego at this point"

My ego ? Many of your reply's on threads seem to be of a argueing nature and written in a obviously you don't know who your corresponding with nor my vast experiance because I own 50 varmint caliber rifles and have shot for 150 years attitude. Along with all the writers are wrong unless of course I wrote it mentality.

I "pm'ed" you because I was new to the board, new no one and you were writing about Tikka's which I just purchased. I notice how you posted my pm factory ammo question for all to see,to anchor your "legend in your own mind" and board guru status.

Had I known I was trying to be friendly with such a legend as yourself I would not have sent the pm.

See ya.........D.H. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
OK,
Go stand in the corner for 10 minutes and come out fighting.

Ballistic programs tell the truth. What twist barrel you are using is the main thing.

With most factory offerings of barrel twist, the 204 is the equal of the 22-250 at 500 yards and much better at longer ranges.

Jack
 
This is my experience so far.
I have a .22-250 and a .22 Hornet. Soon, hopefully, i will have a .223 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif.
My cousin has just got a Ruger all weather .204.
We were out after coyotes when he first got his rifle.
As his rifle did not shoot the 40 grainers factory v.maxes too well (2 inch groups at 100 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif) he had to use the only other factory ammo available, 32 grain v.max.
A coyote was spoted at a lazerd 289yds.
As it was his new rifle i let him take the shot.
He is a deadly shot with his other rifles so i had confidence in him.
After the shot was taken the coyote jumped into the air run a few yards, then went round in cicles and went behind some srub /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif.
We quickly walked up to were it was hit and found a small blood trail and their below a rock lie the coyote still alive /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif.
My Hornet ended it swiftly with a shot to the head /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif.
On examining the yote, it had a massive crater wound just behind the shoulder, were it had broken 2 ribs, but had not penatrated enough to reach the vitals /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif.
Another coyote he took threw the front part of its chest at 98 yds ran 60 to 80yds then droped dead.
Another big crater hole but this time the vitals were just about damaged.
Later on in the day, we went PD hunting and his .204 poped them PDs at some awsome range 412yds /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif, with the barrel hardly heating up at all, compared to my .22-250 which had to stand for a while to cool off after a few shots were taken.
So from what i have experinced so far, is that, they both have their place.
.204= fantastic PD long range, mutiple shot, round, with the advantage to see every shot hitting its target /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
.22-250= Fantastic Coyote round that stops them in their tracks period /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
I was just on a site called www.204ruger.com and they had alot of good information and reloading data from the various powder manufactors that does not support the claims made by some as to the velocity with a 40gr bullet. Is all the reloading data wrong on the 204 ruger? I'm not trying to pick an arguement but something isn't right.
 
Jack,

I guess I am looking at different ballistics tables than those who are seeing the .204 as having more long distance power. Every factory chart I look at shows the 22-250 having more energy at a distance. Even when I use the 40 grain .204, but in reality I believe most .204 shooters are using the 32 grain and most gun shops are carrying the 32 grain because of accuracy. In fairness then one should also compare the 60 grain 22-250 my Tikka shoots that as well as a .204 shoots a 40 grain, also that is what Tikka recommended for my rifle. Further more Savage uses a 1-12 twist rather than 1-14, in there 22-250 which absolutely shoots a 60 grain or higher and we know Savage sell's a hell of allot of rifles. In reality I believe the 55 grain is most common for 22-250 shooters(except Savage) just as the 32 grain is most common with .204 shooters
From Hornady's website
.204/ 40 grain v-max
500 yards / 2133 fps / 404 ft lbs
22-250 / 55 grain v-max
500 yards / 432 ft. lbs
22-250 / 60 grain sp
500 yards / 470 ft lbs

On the factory ballistics charts I see the 22-250, 55 & 60 grain ammo clearly has more energy at distance than 40 grain .204
Also this "foot pounds of energy" although the standard is in my opinion a poor measure of true energy because it does not factor in momentum. When momentum is factored in heavier grains increase in killing power or energy. A 12 # sledge hammer swung by a person at 60 fps per second on to a concrete floor does more damage and has more energy than a large caliber rifle shot point blank into the same. Because of the huge difference of momentum between the 12# hammer and 100 and something grain bullet.
One formula to measure this is called "kinetic pulse". Here it is to read http://www.xmission.com/~fractil/math/kp.html. You will notice near the bottom of the page it also show's a 22 mag rimfire has more "true" energy than a .17 hmr, because of added grains.

Then there is splat versus penetration. As another poster "just documented" in real world hunting for coyotes at a distance. The .204 because of the barrel twist and smaller caliber (spin rate) is going to expand more than the 22-250 round rather penetrate first into the vitals. At long distance on larger game such as coyote when compared to the 22-250 you may not get enough penetration to in-sure a quick kill.

I just don't see the .204 a equal to the 22-250 for long range power on coyote size game. I think it is the ideal prairie dog round but, I hunt woodchucks and most here recommend the added smack of the 22-250 to keep them out of the hole at long distance.

Also and I am not picking on the .204 just my experience from shooting it. Noise, muzzle blast is as load as the 22-250 with a higher pitch that annoys me. Recoil, seeing what you hit. Recoil is less but with a high power scope (distance) it still was enough to move off target and not see impact, it's not a 17 hummer. Maybe if the field of view was larger say 12 power it would be different.
Please note : I just noticed my link on "kinetic pulse" energy did not work. Please do a search on kinetic pulse and you will find the formula and other interesting stuff. Sorry, I guess I am not good at links.
 
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Bill, I agree with you a 100%.
The .204 seems exactly the same as the .22-250 for muzzle blast and noise, that is sharper.
 
I say yay. My 204 is in a 700 adl-cheapo. I am very impressed with it. my favorite load so far is with a 30 gr. Berger HP. Nothing I have shot yet has ran off. DEAD-FLOP..
I don't know how to compare it to my 700 VSSF in 22-250. Way less muzzle jump equals seeing the bullet impact in the scope, and with the Nikon Monarch 5.5x16 on the 204 I can do that. I can't with the fat barreled 22-250 with a 4.5x14 Zeiss Conquest.
It is also quieter to shoot.
I like it but I don't see any reason to give up a proven caliber such as the 22-250.
As for the foregoing argument I really like the 25-06 with light bullets over the 22-250 with heavy bullets. and I cannot really see much difference between the 260 Rem. and the 6mm Rem.
There you go argue and whine over that awhile.
 
Well, since its a new day, I think I'l try something else today. All my defending Silverfox and his data got me was being labeled a ballistic geek, a gear head, and lastly a D. H. Never had that happen on the internet before, but that's OK. I guess it just goes with the territory these days.

I'm gonna' head up to the national forest, hopefully call a few coyotes close enough to shoot......with my Olympus digital camera, and let you folks worry about all this.

Even us ballistic freak/gear head/D.H's enjoy the outdoors. If Silverfox peaks over the ridge, be sure to tell him you've decided his data isn't any good so he can get it corrected.

I sure wish ya'll had come along before I got into all this small caliber stuff. I could have just bought my original 22-250 years ago and lived happily ever after - I guess.

Take Care - BCB
 
I really don't get why everyone has to argue so much about the .204 versus a .22-250? It is completely 2 different cartridges. The cases are different, it is a different caliber, and different amounts of powder are used! Nethier share any common factor besides what each cartridge is used for. We can throw [beeep] back and forth at each other for days even years about this subject. What is that going to gain? Some people have always shot a 22-250 and won't change. Those people have a tendency to stick up for their 22-250's. Those who shoot a .204 will stick up for their cartridge. I do however feel that a person should shoot a .204 and get to know that cartridge before making comments. What factory ballistics tables say should only be used for guide lines. Every gun and bullet combination will shoot differently than what is PUBLISHED. What really matters is how your gun shoots in the field and how confident you are. I own a .204 and could care less what remington or anybody else says. I have killed groundhogs @ 525yds and coyotes over 400yds. I think the .204 is awesome and would never be afraid to go up against a 22-250 in the field. One thing that all the 250 guys need to look at is the difference in bullet weights being compared. Some of you get your jollys from seeing that a 55or 60gr bullet has more ft/lbs than a 32or40gr bullet.Takes a real $ucking genious to figure that out! A heavier bullet should hit harder. The funny thing about that is that the LITTLE .204 shooting its light bullets is right on the heals of a HEAVIER 250 bullet in terms of ft/lbs and it surpasses the 250 in terms of velocity, BC, and over all flatness. GET OVER IT. A .204 IS A GREAT ROUND THAT WILL BE HERE FOR THE LONG HAUL!!!
 
Y'all need to go to the Texas Fishing Forum web site under Bass Fishing and start a post like:

1. 'Lake Fork is the BEST Bass fishing lake in Texas and Beats Alan Henry Hand Down!'

2. 'Lake Alan Henry is the BEST Bass fishing lake in Texas and Beats Lake Fork Hands Down!'

or, how's 'bout

'Blue Cars are 10 TIMES Better Than Green Cars!'
 
BCB, I sure hope I didn't offend you wasn't meant that way. I have appr 30 varmit rifles and I like them all each has a purpose and my favorite is the one I have in my hands at that time. When you look at Berger bullets in 20 cal 40 gr BC is .239 and the 50 gr BC is .296 and in my 22 cal I shoot alot of berger 52 gr bullets in my 22-250AI 1/14 twist shilen barrel and the BC on that bullet is .237. IMHO the 20 cal 35gr bullet may be what I'd build a rifle around. I see no real advantage with the heavier bullets over a 22 cal rifle and if I was building one on the heavier bullets I'd look at a diferent case than the 204 ruger you cann't get the velocity to take advantage of the high BC with those bullets.
With all the battery and memory type chronogroaphs out today good also to check the 100yd velocity against whatever program your using to double check things. I've found them to be off somewhat. Just my .02
 
Ive recently got a .204, and will jump to silverfoxes defence, he has helped me no end with information, a real gentleman, these were shot with his fireforming load, the furthest 283 lasered yards, the man obviously knows what he is talking about, i,m with stan lee.....nuff said.

S4300287.jpg
 
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