17 mach ll expierences
- Thread starter southarkrob
- Start date
southarkrob
New member
Guys I never meant to start all of this... let me preface this with that I have over 3000 acres of some of the best hunting land available in this area. I am amazed at some of these internet Guru's attitudes...it makes me wonder if they have ever spent any time in the woods or most of their time behind a computer. I don't just live to shoot something..I let more animals live than I take...this includes small coyotes..I just don't let them live close to the house...we have small dogs that I like alot better than coyotes. CrossJ unlike you I haven't raised cattle all of my life...but some of my best friends and relatives have and one of my friends lost over 10 300lb or better calves in a month..he got a depredation permit where we could hunt them at nite...we killed 6 or 8 and I definitely know what a coyote will do to a calf. I arrived at my 500 dollar price this way I bought these calves at 300 to 350 lbs 8 months ago...just bought a 550 lb steer and they are bigger than him...at 1.09 to 1.25 alb you do the math. the yote that was shot with the 410 was after one of my angus calves.
Guys I spend more time in the woods than most people..we have a house in the middle of our hunting land and I spend every weekend during season and out..(the only reason I am home is that I got to the farm last nite and had to rush my brother to the hospital for emergency surgery) Guys I just wanted to relate what I had expierienced. I own tons of deer and coyote rifles. I have learned tons on this site and have met alot great guys ( RagnCajn, Cjdavis and alot others) that have helped me with everything from load development to season dates (thanks CJDavis). I am sorry that I made CrossJ so upset... I try my best to make a clean one shot kill on everything that I shoot at...but if a coyote runs off I won't lose much sleep over it... ya know I can't remember the last time a coyote got away from me... to the guys that stood up for me THANKS... to the rest I think ya know what I think.
Guys I spend more time in the woods than most people..we have a house in the middle of our hunting land and I spend every weekend during season and out..(the only reason I am home is that I got to the farm last nite and had to rush my brother to the hospital for emergency surgery) Guys I just wanted to relate what I had expierienced. I own tons of deer and coyote rifles. I have learned tons on this site and have met alot great guys ( RagnCajn, Cjdavis and alot others) that have helped me with everything from load development to season dates (thanks CJDavis). I am sorry that I made CrossJ so upset... I try my best to make a clean one shot kill on everything that I shoot at...but if a coyote runs off I won't lose much sleep over it... ya know I can't remember the last time a coyote got away from me... to the guys that stood up for me THANKS... to the rest I think ya know what I think.
cjdavis618
New member
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CJ, This thread is starting to stray far from its original direction. As a matter of fact, the title has even been changed. But, I will address some of your questions.
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I don't know how long "Most of my adult life" is.
I am 42 years old. I grew up on my families ranch. It raised me and my two sisters and put us through college. I graduated with a degree in Animal science(ranch management), and a degree in business(emphasis on ag business). Managed a very large corporate ranch, and then moved on to my own(preconditioning operation)
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Nor do I know whether you are ranching for someone else, or for yourself.
Answered above, although I don't see the relevance.
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Nor do I know whether you are in free range country.
You may need to clarify that statement.By my definition, 'free range' does not exist anymore.(again another tangent)
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Regardless, you certainly no very little about our area.
True, I doubt I could find my way around downtown Beebe, but I have had a little experience with the cattle business.
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Our problem with loosing calves are more of a mix of Coyotes and coydogs and quite a few wild dog packs.
We are starting to stray again. Which is it? Coyotes or feral dogs? There is a huge difference in the dynamics of the two. Also, 4 calves in one night, all within the same pen? That is a very substantial loss for anyone. Was wildlife services contacted, or fish and game?
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I can also say that if you were to say what you said face to face to that cattle farmer, he would have probably punched you in the mouth saying that a calf is not worth money.
CJ, before we start throwing punches, reread what I said. The claim was that the calf was worth $500. I will try to explain my point. First, a new born calf weighs approx 80lbs. Now lets say that average calf prices last week were $109/cwt. In order to get $500 from that animal, it must weigh approx 458 lbs.
Now, there is 378lbs needed to get to the $500 value. Those lbs will not be gained with out some inputs(expence) by the rancher. Now that the calf is dead, he will not incur those expences. I will grant that some expences are fixed, and can not be averted, simply due to the 'biology' of the situation(9 month gestation etc). For this reason, the ranchers loss is more than $87.20($1.09x80lbs) but less than $500. Although, the $500 sounds more dramatic.
Of course, all this has strayed far from the original topic of someone praising the merits of the 17m2 on coyotes while stifling the coyote depredation on the whitetail population behind their house.
It would have been much easier to say, 'there was a coyote in my back yard, all I had available was a 17m2, and since it was legal, I shot it. To my amazement, the 17m2 actually killed it'.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ............... If you say so. Oh, expence is actually expense.
Everybody... Like I said. Use what you have available, since there is not a "Perfect" scenario. Take care everyone and shoot straight. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
CJ, This thread is starting to stray far from its original direction. As a matter of fact, the title has even been changed. But, I will address some of your questions.
Quote:
I don't know how long "Most of my adult life" is.
I am 42 years old. I grew up on my families ranch. It raised me and my two sisters and put us through college. I graduated with a degree in Animal science(ranch management), and a degree in business(emphasis on ag business). Managed a very large corporate ranch, and then moved on to my own(preconditioning operation)
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Nor do I know whether you are ranching for someone else, or for yourself.
Answered above, although I don't see the relevance.
Quote:
Nor do I know whether you are in free range country.
You may need to clarify that statement.By my definition, 'free range' does not exist anymore.(again another tangent)
Quote:
Regardless, you certainly no very little about our area.
True, I doubt I could find my way around downtown Beebe, but I have had a little experience with the cattle business.
Quote:
Our problem with loosing calves are more of a mix of Coyotes and coydogs and quite a few wild dog packs.
We are starting to stray again. Which is it? Coyotes or feral dogs? There is a huge difference in the dynamics of the two. Also, 4 calves in one night, all within the same pen? That is a very substantial loss for anyone. Was wildlife services contacted, or fish and game?
Quote:
I can also say that if you were to say what you said face to face to that cattle farmer, he would have probably punched you in the mouth saying that a calf is not worth money.
CJ, before we start throwing punches, reread what I said. The claim was that the calf was worth $500. I will try to explain my point. First, a new born calf weighs approx 80lbs. Now lets say that average calf prices last week were $109/cwt. In order to get $500 from that animal, it must weigh approx 458 lbs.
Now, there is 378lbs needed to get to the $500 value. Those lbs will not be gained with out some inputs(expence) by the rancher. Now that the calf is dead, he will not incur those expences. I will grant that some expences are fixed, and can not be averted, simply due to the 'biology' of the situation(9 month gestation etc). For this reason, the ranchers loss is more than $87.20($1.09x80lbs) but less than $500. Although, the $500 sounds more dramatic.
Of course, all this has strayed far from the original topic of someone praising the merits of the 17m2 on coyotes while stifling the coyote depredation on the whitetail population behind their house.
It would have been much easier to say, 'there was a coyote in my back yard, all I had available was a 17m2, and since it was legal, I shot it. To my amazement, the 17m2 actually killed it'.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ............... If you say so. Oh, expence is actually expense.
Everybody... Like I said. Use what you have available, since there is not a "Perfect" scenario. Take care everyone and shoot straight. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
southarkrob
New member
Thanks Hidalgo...this is what I'm talking about the good people on here. My brother is alot better today..I went to the farm yesterday afternoon for a hog/coyote hunt (not in the mood to bowhunt..plus we are covered up with hogs this year) walked in the backdoor and found my brother rolling around on his bed in severe abdominal pain.. our farm is an hour and 15 minutes from the town we live in.. we made it in a little over 40 minutes last nite...scared the heck out of me. His gall bladder messed up and caused pancreatitus..he was in severe pain all nite and most of the morning..they operated this afternoon...when I left him earlier he was reading hunting magazines with his daughter laying in the bed next to him.
Hidalgo
Well-known member
That's great news Rob! Pancreatitis is serious stuff! It's a good thing you came along and found him when you did. Otherwise he would have been in BIG trouble in very short order. Glad he's doing OK.
And most all of the members are "good people"......some of us just come unwired sometimes....especially me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
Oh yeah......don't go after those hogs with that Mach2! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
And most all of the members are "good people"......some of us just come unwired sometimes....especially me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
Oh yeah......don't go after those hogs with that Mach2! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
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southarkrob
New member
No worries on that ...6.5 rem mag works alot better. Dad got one the other evening with a 300wsm.. he's got a 250lb boar in a trap on a trailer at the farm right now. 2 years ago a redneck poached a deer off our farm with a 17 hmr... made me sick but if you raise too much of a stink you might come home and find your house smokin. He was braggin that he shot it and it only ran 100 yards.... Thanks bout my brother...he is my best huntin buddy...he is bummed out because he will be out of bowhunting for a couple of weeks. the guys saw 25 hogs off 2 stands on the farm this evening.
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Yep. When a person is presented with cold-hard facts and has no where else to turn, attack the spelling.
Randy
That could be Randy, or he's just trying to be kind and helpful like me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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Regardless, you certainly no very little about our area.
no should be...... know
As far as the 10 300+ lb calves, well, you really do have a problem. Good luck.
Yep. When a person is presented with cold-hard facts and has no where else to turn, attack the spelling.
Randy
That could be Randy, or he's just trying to be kind and helpful like me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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Regardless, you certainly no very little about our area.
no should be...... know
As far as the 10 300+ lb calves, well, you really do have a problem. Good luck.
cjdavis618
New member
Yep.. It should. Touché
Actually there weren't any cold hard facts. Just personal opinion on his behalf. I have been in country where there is "Free range" within the last couple of years. So yes it exists and not to far from him.
As far as ranches and who owns what. When it isn't your money, people seem to care less. I don't care how many degrees you may or may not have. In my industry, there are people that could make sentences out of all the letters and designations from "Training" and "Certification". But can't do simple tasks without help from someone that has common sense. Degrees don't impress me.
Yes Game and Fish was contacted, and didn't even bother to show up. They sent a Depredation permit since it was a common problem.
And no, it doesn't really matter whether it is coyotes or wild dogs. What dynamic is different about a cow or calf getting killed by a canine? It is still lost money whether it is 50 cents or $500 dollars. Besides that, being a "rancher", you should know that the actual price of a calf doesn't start at birth. Regardless, it is an investment of time and money, especially in a dairy farm situation.
Look, I could argue your point for point all day long. Doesn't do any good. We won't convince each other of anything. Two different worlds, 2 different opinions.
Leave it at that.
Actually there weren't any cold hard facts. Just personal opinion on his behalf. I have been in country where there is "Free range" within the last couple of years. So yes it exists and not to far from him.
As far as ranches and who owns what. When it isn't your money, people seem to care less. I don't care how many degrees you may or may not have. In my industry, there are people that could make sentences out of all the letters and designations from "Training" and "Certification". But can't do simple tasks without help from someone that has common sense. Degrees don't impress me.
Yes Game and Fish was contacted, and didn't even bother to show up. They sent a Depredation permit since it was a common problem.
And no, it doesn't really matter whether it is coyotes or wild dogs. What dynamic is different about a cow or calf getting killed by a canine? It is still lost money whether it is 50 cents or $500 dollars. Besides that, being a "rancher", you should know that the actual price of a calf doesn't start at birth. Regardless, it is an investment of time and money, especially in a dairy farm situation.
Look, I could argue your point for point all day long. Doesn't do any good. We won't convince each other of anything. Two different worlds, 2 different opinions.
Leave it at that.
stanimals2
New member
Dead yote = good yote and I could care less how it gets there, if it drops in its tracks or runs 100 miles and dies in its den as long as its dead. Nuff said
Ridge Runner
New member
got free reign on at least 21,000 acres here, not counting public lands, hunting land isn't hard to come by, just gotta know the right folks, treat them right, and drop a lil cash. for about 11 grand here in wv, you can buy forever hunting rights on 6400 acres, actualy your part owner.
RR
RR
southarkrob
New member
For 3000 acres in south Arkansas will cost ya over a grand a year not counting all of your tractor work and seed. I have access to alot more ...but 3k acres is what I pay for.
yoopereh
New member
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Would you shoot a cape buffalo with a 38 special? how about a 204?
I have shot lots of things with my M2, far as I am concerned its marginal for even prairie dogs. But you go ahead and wound a couple coyotes with it, then we will see how you feel about it. I wish more people had respect enough to use a gun suited for the game they are taking.
If I where you I would edit and delete this topic as fast as I could.
Well I do agree with you, about proper tool for the proper job, but the second part to this is if your a good shot, and I mean a really good shot you can get away with smaller calibers for game over its intended size. Shot placement is as important to coyotes as it is to deer as cape buffalo.
Would you shoot a cape buffalo with a 38 special? how about a 204?
I have shot lots of things with my M2, far as I am concerned its marginal for even prairie dogs. But you go ahead and wound a couple coyotes with it, then we will see how you feel about it. I wish more people had respect enough to use a gun suited for the game they are taking.
If I where you I would edit and delete this topic as fast as I could.
Well I do agree with you, about proper tool for the proper job, but the second part to this is if your a good shot, and I mean a really good shot you can get away with smaller calibers for game over its intended size. Shot placement is as important to coyotes as it is to deer as cape buffalo.
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.. you should know that the actual price of a calf doesn't start at birth. Regardless, it is an investment of time and money, especially in a dairy farm situation.
CJ, one last tangent down this road. That calf, at birth, has a value. It is more than likely, that value is below the profit margin for that 'animal unit'. That animal unit is the mother cow that has an annual cost. In other words, it costs X number of dollars to keep that cow 365 days.
That same calf at weaning(or whereever you choose to market and take a profit) has a different value(lets hope higher). The profit is not (market value)-(birth value). Usually this profit is not $500. Now, we are both in agreement that any loss of inventory in any business will affect the bottom line. The remaining inventory will have to absorb the fixed costs the lost inventory would have, thus lowering the profit margin.Where one decides to start counting their annual expence is up to them, but most choose calving date as the starting point. This is why 'days between freshening' is an important number in figuring profitability(especially in a dairy).
Now, my original point was, a dead calf is not a direct loss of $500 dollars. It sounds more dramatic to throw in the big number, but it is not accurate. It is more dramatic to be 'saving' wildlife, or 'protecting' livestock than it is to just shoot a target of opportunity.
Thats it! I'm sure you have more points, and so do I. But, I am leaving for 10 days, just gonna go shoot some coyotes and visit some good friends.
Maintain
P.S.CJ, I would like your definition of free range. I think we have two different things in mind.
.. you should know that the actual price of a calf doesn't start at birth. Regardless, it is an investment of time and money, especially in a dairy farm situation.
CJ, one last tangent down this road. That calf, at birth, has a value. It is more than likely, that value is below the profit margin for that 'animal unit'. That animal unit is the mother cow that has an annual cost. In other words, it costs X number of dollars to keep that cow 365 days.
That same calf at weaning(or whereever you choose to market and take a profit) has a different value(lets hope higher). The profit is not (market value)-(birth value). Usually this profit is not $500. Now, we are both in agreement that any loss of inventory in any business will affect the bottom line. The remaining inventory will have to absorb the fixed costs the lost inventory would have, thus lowering the profit margin.Where one decides to start counting their annual expence is up to them, but most choose calving date as the starting point. This is why 'days between freshening' is an important number in figuring profitability(especially in a dairy).
Now, my original point was, a dead calf is not a direct loss of $500 dollars. It sounds more dramatic to throw in the big number, but it is not accurate. It is more dramatic to be 'saving' wildlife, or 'protecting' livestock than it is to just shoot a target of opportunity.
Thats it! I'm sure you have more points, and so do I. But, I am leaving for 10 days, just gonna go shoot some coyotes and visit some good friends.
Maintain
P.S.CJ, I would like your definition of free range. I think we have two different things in mind.
southarkrob
New member
CrossJ, I obviously am not as smart in the cattle industry as you are...all I know is that I gave $300 dollars for a calf and she has gained a couple hundred pounds therefore increasing in value. And when I see a coyote in my cow pasture I guarantee you that I am gonna shoot it with whatever I have availabe at the time ([beeep] I'll run it over with the truck if I have to) and will not lose any sleep if one runs off after being shot there..if it lives it might learn a valuable lesson to stay away from cows. I travel all over Ks, Oklahoma and texas and have seen alot of coyotes hanging on fences here lately.. so that tells me that the ranchers in those states aren't too fond of them in their pastures either. All I was trying to say was that I shot 3 and they didn't run more than 40 yards and fell over... I have shot them with 30 cals that ran farther...I was not trying to make any enemies and I guess I wasn't on here for the HMR wars......so I didn't know. Robbie