Failing schools are best shut down.

Quote:It's hard to find any evolution occuring in six days.
If God is Eternal, what is the length of a "day" in the Realm of God??

There are many questions in the Bible that cause a thinking person to ask more questions...

Do we, as humans, take the Bible on it's literal face value, or use it to apply and interpret the message and history contained to our own needs, in the figurative sense??

Case in point (Genesis 6.4) One of the first questions posed to me as a child..."From where did the Giants come."
Quote:"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. " (Genesis 6:4)
Search out the term "Giants in the Bible" and you can spend the day reading and researching just this factor....There are theories that may, or may not, be true...

It's up to the individual to make the determination, based on personal research, as to what is "Truth" and what is fact or conjecture...
 
Originally Posted By: metalmangeler

I have noticed that whenever the subject of what a teacher is paid comes up we all hear about the first year teacher only making so much, but rarely hear about the 20 year teacher only making what they make. If underpayment is so consistent why is that

We always hear figures quoted on internet forums and many times they are inflated or minuscule to support the argument at hand.

Here is the salary scale of Gilbert School District in Gilbert, AZ for the 2009-2010 school year. It's in pdf format.

http://www.gilbert.k12.az.us/departments/humanrescources/hrpdfs/0910salary/CTSalarySchedule0910.pdf

Key to reading it- every year of service you move down 1 cell. Every 12 credits of approved college credit you move to the right one cell (BA+12 is a Bach degree + 12 credits). You will see you 'bottom out' eventually unless you go take more college on (your own dime). You will also note that the customary annual 'raise' each teacher gets averages out to about $1000/year. You also can note that a teacher can continue going to school and earn the credit equivalent to an individual who gets the title of Ed.D or a Ph.D. The teachers in the Gilbert School District have not received a lateral cell movement in 2 years due to the economy. This next year we will get a 1% reduction in pay.

Now I have always had the idea I'd make more getting babysitting wages for kids in my room and just turn my classroom into a daycare facility. Look at the pay I'd receive. A babysitter gets about $2.25/hour. I'd have each child from 8:00 until 3- 7 hours a day. 2.25 x 7 = $15.50. I'd get that for each student each day. I have 35 students. 15.50 x 35= $542.50 each day. I teach 180 calendar days per year. $542.50 x 180= $97,650. Now we're talking.

Something to think about.
 
O.T, no doubt there is much in the Holy Bible. That will not/nor ever be fully understood by man[specifically myself]. I take it at face value. As for some that have experienced the "Spirit World" Who knows why? I sure don't. Why is one shown over another?

What I do know, is over the yrs. I've had personal experiences. I've also spoken to many whom have had the same. Are these people "above others" that haven't? Of course not. Regardless, they were chosen for whatever reasons unknown.

I believe[IMO] one reason, as for these experiences. Is to spread the word. Another is, I suspect for that person's salvation. That the Spirit World, indeed truely exists. As for my own personal experiences. I can't fathom the reason why. Other than, I needed guidence. As well as, needed to know the truth. Of it's existence.

edited: For spelling, because I got a C LOL!
 
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"If God is Eternal, what is the length of a 'day' in the Realm of God?? There are many questions in the Bible that cause a thinking person to ask more questions...
Do we, as humans, take the Bible on it's literal face value, or use it to apply and interpret the message and history contained to our own needs, in the figurative sense??"


Look again at Verse 5 OT-

"And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

So yes, GOD created Heaven and Earth in SIX LITERAL 24 HOUR PERIODS.


 
Originally Posted By: dogcatcherAnd how many times has the bible been interpreted from one language to another language? Who did the interpretations? Man, the perfect man?

I will leave it the clergy to make these interpretations they have a lot more "invested" in this than I do. If they say evolution is compatible with the bible I will take there word for it.


2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."


Using your logic, if "clergy" tells you it's OK to molest children would you believe it? (Because there are SOME that would tell you that very thing.)

The question is are you going to put your faith in the opinions of fallible men or the inspired Word of God?
 
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That's a brilliant concept and the numbers support it! It might fit in with the blending of NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND into RACE TO THE TOP!

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Teachers are very much worth much more than they have ever been paid and I am proud of you all!

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Good hunting!
 
Scott, I have heard many complaints over the years form the teachers there are 6 in the family, also from those outside the family. Some are legit other complaints are not. I am self employed, I normally work 6 days a week I take 2 or 3 weeks off a year to go hunting or visit in-laws out of state. You would not want to trade wages for any of the first 30 years of my work so far, even if you could do it on 180 days a year. I am not complaining about the wage as I see it as the cost of having the opportunity to do really well, a govt. job has security, with that comes a ceiling. This last year I had about a 30% cut in income, many on here are aware of similar things, there are many who would love to have the threat of a 1% pay cut next year as they are looking for work and not finding it. I believe that teachers spend to much time only talking to other teachers (teachers lounge) this causes them to lose sight of how other jobs work, and only see the negative aspects of their job and often do not see the bright spots.
I like your day care idea, it may not pay as well as you expect as there would be expenses that you don't carry now. like insurance, the building, consumable materials who watches the kids while you have lunch etc. but the potential would be there to do much better than you do now, with that opportunity would come the opportunity to fail in a spectacular way, that is missing from your present job.
Merit pay seems like a good idea to me in my experience at school as a student there were teachers who were popular with the students who did not really teach the students much. However I think that if merit pay were used one of the items used to determine pay really should be how many students were being taught, that is part of value for the dollar as well as how well each student progressed. You are right it would not be totally fair, but the present system is not at all fair either.
Thank you for posting the whole pay schedule I think that makes the discussion more honest.
 
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Teachers need good compensation for the important work they do often in trying circumstances with students who will be the future citizens who keep our country growing and great.

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Since teachers work with impressionable youth, they provide good role models and examples for the students to follow and model.

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It's important that they be well compensated in order to prevent their being drawn into more lucrative fields they could enter thereby depriving the schools of their hard won talents.

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Teachers can spot troubled students sometimes and re-direct their energies so that they succeed rather than follow a path to incarceration and a life that costs the public large volumes of money to keep them under lock and key.

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Teachers deserve and earn everything they get!

Good hunting!
 
"There are many questions in the Bible that cause a thinking person to ask more questions...

Do we, as humans, take the Bible on it's literal face value, or use it to apply and interpret the message and history contained to our own needs, in the figurative sense??"

Very good question. I am a thinking person. Humans have the ability to use logic and reasoning.

I am also a Christian.

Seems contradictory to some. Not to me. I see the Bible as a guideline, with lots of examples. I don't believe it was all meant to be interpreted literally, but I think it contains the main ideas of how one should live.
 
Originally Posted By: metalmangelerGenesis was written in Hebrew translated to English. There are plenty of people who read Hebrew to verify the translation. There are more copies of the scripture than other ancient accounts. The question is not whether they are translated well it is what stock do you put in them.

I have noticed that whenever the subject of what a teacher is paid comes up we all hear about the first year teacher only making so much, but rarely hear about the 20 year teacher only making what they make. If underpayment is so consistent why is that, I realise that many people make more than teachers. Some I think are overpaid some are obviously underpaid, much of this has to do with the system of how compensation is calculated. If you used a voucher system and had the parents bid for the teachers it would look more like a free enterprise system. I think that there would still be some who were over paid and some who were not but.... I also wonder how teachers would feel about class size if they were paid so much per student? I doubt that there is any way to really find out since that is not how the pay system works, in fact I have seen the opposite where a teacher with lots of experience was given 1 special needs child and paid much more than other teachers with full classrooms but less years in the system and not a masters.

Lets talk teacher pay if you want. A first year teacher in Colorado is lucky to net $30,000 per year. Now figure this: if you compare to even you typical down the street daycare there is a huge problem. Figure this: 20 students per day, 165 days per year (with students, not counting all the other hours, duties, etc.) 7 hours per day, and figuring a typical low end pay of $3.00 per child per hour (this is what we typically pay for daycare) The teacher would make $69,300. Please pay me per student per hour. how many careers can you leave a 4 year college with and the max you make is low $30,000. Add to the fact that insurance is rising, etc. We have 1st year teachers with families who qualify for food stamps and WIC. That is just wrong.

I hate to say it, but most educators are not paid crap in the US. Other countries that have a much higher respect for education treat teachers and pay teachers the similar to doctors, lawyers etc.

Even veteran teachers do not make much money.To get pay increases you must get more education. A person who get s a masters will typically top out under $50,000 in Colorado even with 25 years experience and an advanced degree.

Now take me: I am a principal, I manage a budget over a 1/4 millon dollars, I over see 20 employees, and mange 250 students and parents. I work over 50 hours per week, I am now making $58,000 and with the state budget issues that will decrease. The only up side is people who stay in the system typically do so because they value the students.

Again performance pay is junk because there are just to many factors that effect student performance. Students come into school with all sorts of issues. There are some students who fear going home, other that are so hungary they are more worried about food than class. Some relive the abuse at home everyday in class, etc. My school got hit hard this year, we had a high school JR pass away right in the middle of the state test. How well do you think we did this year? I can hope that we did well, but how can anyone concentrate on a test knowing a friend, student, and family member is on life support and odds are they will not make it.
 
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Originally Posted By: metalmangeler Scott, I have heard many complaints over the years form the teachers there are 6 in the family, also from those outside the family. Some are legit other complaints are not. I am self employed, I normally work 6 days a week I take 2 or 3 weeks off a year to go hunting or visit in-laws out of state. You would not want to trade wages for any of the first 30 years of my work so far, even if you could do it on 180 days a year. I am not complaining about the wage as I see it as the cost of having the opportunity to do really well, a govt. job has security, with that comes a ceiling. This last year I had about a 30% cut in income, many on here are aware of similar things, there are many who would love to have the threat of a 1% pay cut next year as they are looking for work and not finding it. I believe that teachers spend to much time only talking to other teachers (teachers lounge) this causes them to lose sight of how other jobs work, and only see the negative aspects of their job and often do not see the bright spots.
I like your day care idea, it may not pay as well as you expect as there would be expenses that you don't carry now. like insurance, the building, consumable materials who watches the kids while you have lunch etc. but the potential would be there to do much better than you do now, with that opportunity would come the opportunity to fail in a spectacular way, that is missing from your present job.
Merit pay seems like a good idea to me in my experience at school as a student there were teachers who were popular with the students who did not really teach the students much. However I think that if merit pay were used one of the items used to determine pay really should be how many students were being taught, that is part of value for the dollar as well as how well each student progressed. You are right it would not be totally fair, but the present system is not at all fair either.
Thank you for posting the whole pay schedule I think that makes the discussion more honest.

There are a few issues with this post. Right now there is no security in teaching. People are getting laid off right and left. Your first 30 years of work probably did not require you to have a 4 year degree to even qualify. While I admire you for being self employed, it is a risk you took. It is sad to think I could leave my job right now and drive a water truck and make more money than I currently do with a masters degree and being a principal. Merit just will not work. There are just too many other factors effecting student performance beyond the teacher. How do you determine what is adequate progress? How do you account for a student who comes to class not speaking english, or who suffers from a head injury, or who has parents who are not worth a poo.
 
Originally Posted By: elks It is sad to think I could leave my job right now and drive a water truck and make more money than I currently do

what is stopping you??
 
I had assumed that teaching job security would be similar over most of the states, but it appears that I am wrong. I have never known a teacher with tenure to be laid off. They get tenure here after 3 years.

You are right I did not need a degree to start, however I have continued to add to my education and still do. I am still hopeful that the risk will pan out which it could, (I expect it will) I am constantly judged by my customer base, they don't often know much about the subject and are not qualified to make those judgements but that is how it works, and they judge my performance, and therefore my pay. Like I said in my post merit pay would not be totally fair, maybe I should have said it would not be fair at all. If you are doing an decent job then the present system is not at all fair either, if the water truck driver makes more than you do.

Thank you for working with the children in your school, I realize that I sound negative on this subject and in some ways maybe I am, but I know that most teachers are working hard and the people who show up are often hostile.
I also believe that merit pay should raise the pay to many of the teachers who are making a difference. It seems that most teachers think that it would only lower their income, that should only be true if they were all doing a poor job. No doubt you have spent more time thinking about it than I ever will, I agree that it would be difficult to implement, and it would often not be fair,and that it would bring about change, which most of us don't like. I would not agree that, "it will not work."
It could be that I am just wrong about merit pay. I don't really think that we will see it used in the public school system so whether I am wrong or not won't likely be tested.
I will not be around my computer for a few days, so I won't be spreading more misinformation.
 
Originally Posted By: sweatybettyOriginally Posted By: elks It is sad to think I could leave my job right now and drive a water truck and make more money than I currently do

what is stopping you??

It really boils down to loving kids and wanting to have an impact in our future and our country. It allows me to visit with students and make a difference in their lives. the truck driving, would be a job. While it is an important job, it does not have the reward. Also, I can't leave the schools to all the liberals. I have to be there to fight for the conservatives, fight gun control, and hopefully create a school based shooting sports team. Truck driving will not this happen.

I have and will always keep my CDL current, just in case. In most cases the tenure issue is correct, but there are ways to get rid of tenure holding teachers if needed. This year in CO the majority of district are declaring a state of exigency. Basically allows districts cut position as log as it not hired back for 1 year. My district is small we are currently looking at loosing 4 or more teachers. A neighboring district has cut 16. It is not good times. Our state is forcing districts to cut large amounts of money. We are cutting right at $400,000 out of our budget or about 8%. Things are looking rough, I heard one larger district was cutting over 50 jobs.

THe other aspect to consider is I do not know a teacher who actually works a normal da/hours. Most are working at home, late nights, etc. they are coaches, sponsors, etc. The district asked me to keep my hours, I averaged over 52 hours a week. They quickly decided that tracking hours of salary staff was a bad idea...

I just wish we could find a system that protects teachers, but still holds them accountable for things they can control.
 
I earn a low six figure income. I make (taxable equivalent) almost twice what the highest paid educator on Scott's scale makes. Does that mean that I am more highly paid than any teacher in the Gilbert school district?

Not exactly. I work an absolute minimum of 12 hours a day/7days a week for 344 days out of the year. When you factor in overtime, combat pay, vacation pay, etc, I make $17.60 hr, at the most (I'm not paid overtime after 60 hrs/week and I work a lot of 90-105 hr weeks which reduces the hourly rate commensurately).

The absolute lowest pay level for a starting teacher in Scott's district is $24.57 an hour ($35,380 per year / 1440 hrs (180 8 hr classroom days)).

So who makes more, me or the lowest level starting teacher?

The Dept of Labor's 2002 "National Compensation Survey: Occupational Wages in the United States", found that the average elementary school teacher made $30.75 per hour and high school teachers made $31.01.

That was just below physicists ($32.17), computer scientists ($32.86), electrical engineers ($34.97), dentists ($35.51), nuclear engineers ($36.16), and lawyers ($44.02).

It was above chemists ($30.68), mechanical engineers ($29.45), civil engineers ($29.34), architects ($28.85), and biologists ($28.07).

These numbers don't factor in the benefits typically available to teachers, medical, prescriptions, dental, vision, retirement, and life insurance, usually much better than private sector jobs, all of which add (sometimes considerably) to the wage base. They also don't factor the (usual) tenure involved. Having a virtual guarantee of job security is a difficult factor to put a dollar figure on, but it is certainly worth a great deal.

Not too bad for union labor.

Comparing U.S. teachers wages to those of other countries can be very misleading. Firstly, in many countries the school year is considerably longer, so again the calculation should be broken down to hourly wages to make it apples to apples.

Comparing the wages of other jobs in other countries is also often misleading "and pay teachers the similar to doctors, lawyers etc.". Doctors in countries with socialized medicine usually make considerably less than their American counterparts. In 2004 the average German doctor made $56,000 a year for instance. It's not surprising that teachers made similar salaries. Average lawyers in the U.S. don't make that much more than teachers, but in foreign countries there is usually not just a job description of "lawyer" where to pass a bar exam the student has to know every facet of the law. "Lawyers" in foreign countries generally only know one area and are considerably less educated than their U.S. counterparts overall. Think barrister and solicitor in the UK for instance, both are "lawyers" according to our definition, but they are actually two different professions with different training.

Expecting total teacher pay to come anywhere close to professional pay in the U.S. (doctors, lawyers. etc) is unrealistic on grounds other than hours worked as well. Med, Law, and Engineering schools have intense competition among high performing students for entry. They are often the sorts of ambitious personalities who prefer to work in high pressure competitive jobs where working much harder and much longer hours results in a higher total salary and advancement.

That would make teaching, a job where higher income is based almost exclusively on credentials and years of experience, an entirely unsuitable profession for those high achievers.

That credential/experience pay structure, initiated largely as a result of contract negotiations by the teacher's unions, has been a problem for decades. In their 2003 study: "Pulled Away or Pushed Out? Explaining the Decline of Teacher Aptitude in the United States", Hoxby and Leigh of Harvard found that (since the '60s) "...the inability of teachers to make more money by performing better has been the main cause of significant declines in the academic abilities of those who have entered the teaching profession."

I would predict failure for the "new pay system" ideas put forth in Scott's district for exactly the reasons he outlined and more.

They have the right basic premise, better pay for better performance (merit pay), it's in the system of measurement that their ideas fail. It's really not that difficult a problem from a practical/statistical standpoint.

You first establish a baseline from last year's work. In other words, what percentile did the fifth grade class you are about to inherit test in last year compared to other fifth graders and compared to their performance in fourth grade? A statistician would include a great deal more than just that to take care of outliers, variations, kids arriving or leaving in the middle of the year, etc, but that's basically what the end result would be.

If (for instance) your new six grade class tested at the 50th percentile in fifth grade, and tested at the 55th percentile when you finished with them, you were a heck of a teacher and would strongly deserve a bonus. No standardised tests, no parent/student/admin evaluations, strictly performance. If they tested at median again (50th percentile) then you have taught them what was required, better than some teachers and not as well as others (who lost ground) and you would be paid commensurately.

It sounds a little complicated to those not familiar with statistics, but it's not really that difficult.

Merit pay could work, but it would be a radical change from the current system, strongly opposed by the unions and by those who fear they wouldn't stack up well against their peers.
 
"Merit pay could work, but it would be a radical change from the current system, strongly opposed by the unions and by those who fear they wouldn't stack up well against their peers."


Why would local unions oppose this?
 
"So who makes more, me or the lowest level starting teacher?"


Who does more for the common good? Not a challenge, a question.
 
Unions negotiate collective bargaining contracts that often cover many thousands workers. Once negotiated, those contracts are rarely renegotiated, and they apply to every single worker no matter what the situation. that being the case, unions will always be looking for the easiest, least objective standard by which to measure their members. Additionally, they'll do their best to control the standards themselves rather than have the other side control them.

In the case of teachers unions, school boards can't change years of service, or degrees. But they could change the curriculum, or the tests, or the standards. Unions of course fear this, and in fact it is their legal responsibility to avoid it for their members.

The unfortunate result is that the standards pushed by unions will tend always towards mediocrity. A collective bargaining system run by a "majority" system is always going to produce a system that rewards the median or "lowest common denominator" worker, not the best or most productive.

Merit pay systems can work in one of two ways. They can compare teachers against the average, and reward improvement, or they can set minimum standards and give bonuses to any teacher who beats that standard(s).

In the first instance, productivity would be raised since teachers would be measured against each other (competition). That system would be unlikely to gain easy union approval though, because the majority of teachers might not benefit from it, and those who did would have to work harder.

The second example might eventually pass muster with the union, but the union would do it's best to set the standards low enough that the majority of it's members would be getting a "bonus".

Unions are designed to maximize benefits for the bottom 55% of their membership. That's not just teachers unions or education, it's everywhere. That's how unions HAVE to work in order to stay in existence.

Merit pay of some sort HAS been instituted in several places, usually over the objection of the union and in the end watered down by the union or with added incentives. In Denver for instance they put a lot more total money on the table to gain teachers and union support, and came up with a sort of hybrid version (ProComp) and has been heatedly fought over even after being implemented.
 
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