Acquired behavior, or thinking?

NASA

NASA

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Do animals think? There is no doubt that some are very intelligent. They can be “trained” to do many human activities. But do they formulate and execute plans? Do they predict, and then act on that prediction? Some people are convinced that coyotes can “out-think” them. Is that possible?

I was at a county fair that had a chicken that played tic-tac-toe. It was virtually impossible to beat that chicken. People were saying, “That must be the smartest chicken in the world.” How can that chicken “out-think” a human? Ahhh, but did it have anything to do with “thinking”?

The chicken’s “skill” is the result of sensory adaptation. The chicken becomes habituated after being subjected to alternating negative/positive experiences. This is known as behavior conditioning through the use of repetitive stimuli.

In this case, an audible buzzer is paired with electrical shock. The chicken learns very quickly to press any of 9 bars, because the correct bar-press shuts off the buzzer/shock. A small reward of a few grains of cracked corn is given for tapping the correct bar. Eventually, the electrical shock is discontinued and the chicken is ready for public display. The buzzer stimuli remains to indicate errors.

Now that you know the mechanism responsible for the “thinking” chicken, he doesn’t seem so “smart” anymore. The explanation of the chicken has a lot to do with how a coyote learns, also. Except coyotes receive their stimuli from nature (and a little help from predator hunters). But the process is very similar.

What do YOU think?
 
I got Bill Austin's coyote calling tapes a few years back and in the one tape he says that the coyote is incapable of thinking ahead on things. He said they don't have cognitive thinking ability,I think that is some what simular to what he said. I think that it is just reaction to what they have experienced and possibly some are just cautious any way.T.20
 
A chicken is the worst example as its brain/body ratio is pretty varied.

Of course animals think. Coyotes I beleive are not naturally cautious. Naturally they are dumb but they learn to be cautious as they experience lifes dangers. This is a sign of thinking, ahead

Look at any trained dog that performs a specific duty. Bird dogs know how to corner a bird then point, then at the command they flush. Its all invsioned in their head. Ever have a trained dog expect something and you hesitate too long and he looks back at you like "hey idiot your supposed to............"?
 
i agree with tommy, a bird dog is a excellent example the dogs are trained for a situation, but they have to think to carry out their training in different situations.

ever had a coyote hang up on you and see him looking around knowing something isn't right...well i believe his "experience" is telling him something is wrong but he is thinking how to get out of the situation. Just my opinion.

good thread
 
People tend to overestimate the intelligence of animals. Don’t get confused: training is not “thinking”. It’s conditioning. Earthworms can be “trained” to negotiate a maze. “Learning”, as such, is a "common property of all nervous systems." Even the simplest ones.

What we're usually trying to do is ask the question, “Do they think like us?” Do you really think you can compare human intelligence and thought to other species?

The average dog is as “smart” as a 24-month-old child. Both can be conditioned to respond to the word “No”, or “Come” for example. But neither has the capability of theoretical analyses, or the ability to formulate and contemplate alternatives. The dog’s brain has developed to its maximum potential, the child’s has not. In a few more years however, the child will have that capability. The dog will not.

We attribute intelligence to the animal. But cognitive ability? Can they comprehend things that are not in the here and now? Of course not.

Many people tend to rely on emotion to compensate for their lack of statistical and empirical facts. This may be an important point, as animals are not driven by emotions. We wouldn't dream of leaving a wounded buddy behind, but animals would only be motivated by one "fact". Their personal survival.

Just a few contemplations from a “thinking animal”.
 
I understand Nasa's question about animals who are trained can perform a certain task, but does that show a sign of having analytical skills?

But we all have to be trained to be educated. Thats why our kids go to public schools. Public schools werent always available, in fact have only been part of our system for just a little over 100 years.

The way we understand the concept of "thinking" cannot be applied to the animal world as humans have far more advanced due to our two thumbs. Maybe the concept can be applied but can the level?

Predators have a higher level of thinking compared to other animals as they must be trained to hunt by their parents and when released they have to rely on their training and formulate certain kill tactics such as iscolating the weakest animal of a herd and executing its harvest by using the wind, natural cover, etc. This activity is a sign of having to analyze a situation then see it to the finish. The larger the predatory animal the more head scrathing is envloved as it has to be more advanced to survive.

Am I close Nasa?
 
I dont believe animals can think to the degree that we do,not even close.I believe in what NASA says.Think of it this way,in trapping some animals escape when they chew there foot off,due to bad trap choice in my opinion.But some seem to think they chew there foot off to escape.If this were true,the animal would have to have been caught before,and learned this through experience.Because where would they come up with that,never having seen a trap before or caught by one if it had all 4 feet intact.A more reasonable explanation for chewing,would be the the animal is chewing on the trap,but when the foot is numb,it chews on that because its easier on the teeth.An animal will not inflict pain on itself.Same goes for that coyote that hangs up,he probably had a similar experience and now is more cautious,I dont think he sits there thinking is it live or is that a vintage circe,or a tally-ho.I guess what I'm trying to say is they dont have the ability to reason.
 
Here’s a little more to “think” about. Crows are pretty smart birds right? But they can’t count. Example: A truck pulls up to some feeding crows and 2 guys with shotguns get out and walk into the bush. The crows fly off to a safe distance. One guy walks back to the truck and drives off. The crows return and get shot by the remaining hunter. Common scenario.

Ants are fantastic communicators. Ever watch Army Ants? Humans couldn’t respond to a situation as quickly and efficiently as these ants do. Look at how long it takes to respond to hurricane Charlie. If ants were in charge everything would be cleaned up and functioning normally within 2 days.

You know what a paper wasp is, right? Have you ever looked at that nest? At the chambers? There is never the same amount of chambers from nest to nest. But each colony knows exactly how many chambers to build. They know in advance how many to build. And they know how to count!

Every creature seems to have “some” aspect of behavior that appears akin to our own degree of intelligence. But WE are the only ones that have it ALL. That’s why we’re the dominant animal on this planet. We are not at the top of the food chain by accident. There are some members of our species who do not deserve this status. They do not utilize the full potential of the mental capabilities that set us apart from the lower life forms. And we coddle them. Because our primal “instinct” of preservation is becoming superceded by an “emotion” called compassion. We would do well to not lose touch with our origins.
 
as i sit here listening to Pink Floyde snacking munchies and watching my lava lamp bubble...i'm pondering:

1. would the crow that got away vote for john kerry?

2. would my bookie take $50 on the under for the worm?

3. and why didn't that coyote have on his ACME wings like Wiley E he could have just flew over that trap to get the road runner

LOL...sorry nasa too much caffeine and too long of hours at work.
 
Lets look at it this way, you have inanimate objects such as rocks which do not posses a brain.

Then you have vegetative matter which also does not posses a brain.

Then you have insects who do have a brain but only knows how to shelter itself and eat vegetation or other insects. Some insects devise certain tactics such as spiders with their webs to catch other insects. This is a sign of a thought process by the spider. But of course some insects are dumber then others.

Then as we progress up the food chain you have the animal kingdom which eats all the lower scales of life and non-life forms, inanimate objects (goats eating rocks, coyotes eating tin cans), vegatation, insects, and even other animals be it herbivores, omnivores, or carnivores.

Then stands us up here with this big brain that can devise a kill tactic, operate a computer, have compassion for our own kind, and stare at lava lamps while we wonder "why is there air".

Its all relative to the animals surroundings, environment, necessary survival needs (which provoke the skills it must learn), and relationship with other creatures in which it has to coexist.

Coyotes arent going to know how to react with an elephant but do know what to do when its leg is caught in a trap. I strongly believe that a coyote "thinks" to chew its leg off as I believe it has the power to devise a way to get free. Out of desperation to "survive" it must put that brain to work to get loose. We saw it last year when a man had to cut his hand off when a boulder fell on it while out climbing and that was his only excape. Of course thats apples to oranges, but coyotes do have to work to get free.

Bone isnt the easiest thing to chew through since teeth are just as hard as bone. Coyotes break teeth during this process, so they feel the pain in their gums even if their legs are numb.

Path of least resistance takes its toll in life, if a human or an animal is ever faced with a situation then he must design a way to overcome it and in the process he learns from that situation. If he is never faced with a situation then he never has to overcome it. Animals that are trained are caused to have to learn whether it be by attaching an electrode to its tender parts or by being rewarded. The animal is subjected to certain conditions and like Nasa said this would be acquired behavior but through repetition the animal learns how to handle that situation.

Its how all living creatures learn, and ultimatly "think". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Breaking teeth isnt inflicting pain on himself,it's a result of fighting something that has a hold of him.Just like he aquires injury in a territorial battle or wounds recieved when taking down game.I have modified my traps to keep blood flow to the foot of the trapped animal about 11 years ago,and have not had 1(one) coyote coon or what have you chew out since.And very little to no foot damage what so ever.
 
You are correct that nothing will intentionally go out and inflict pain on itself. But when pain has been inflicted, then you must overcome it.

We must agree that chewing at the trapped leg is an attempt to get out of the situation. If that wasnt the case then why dont they chew on the other foot?

So with that behind us, we know he is strategicaly plotting his own escape be it by chewing through steel or his leg. Just so happens his own leg is softer and more gentler on his teeth. But however it happens his motive is to get away from whatever has him trapped.

The leg might be numb as the bloodflow is somewhat restricted and therefore the nerves begin to die off and his endorphins are maxed out. But did you watch the interview with the man who had to cut his hand off to get away from the rock? His words was that he felt every chisel he took. So I dont believe the limb is sedated to the point of not being able to feel it.
 
Breaking teeth isnt inflicting pain on himself

I would believe that statement to be true if it only took a matter of seconds to chew through his leg bone. But breaking teeth is inflicted and not accidental. It takes several hours to knaw through a leg bone. So the coyote is intentionally chewing his own leg off, and harming his teeth all at the same time.

Now two coyotes fighting and one coyote happens to break a tooth, yes that wouldnt necessarly be inflicting but rather a result or bi-product of fighting.
 
Tommy I have to agree that he his fighting the trap.But unlike the guy who cut off his hand the coyotes foot is below the jaws which is the pinch point.Cutting off a limb above that would cause pain for a person or coyote.So each instance is totally different in the fact of where the limb will be severed.One being numb and one not.I'm not trying to get into a whizzin match.But I also think animals percieve pain differently.
 
Now perception of pain is a whole differnt story.

Now see coyotes........... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

No whizzin here blak coyote, just passing the summertime blues.
 
Hmmmm... I have caught a lot of coyote, fox and such, but I have never seen where one chewed its leg. There has been some damage due to loss of swiveling or being wrapped in a fence, but never chewed. The only ones that have chewed were coons and skunks, because they were bitting the trap, it was the numb part inside of the jaws that was damaged, not any above.
If someone sees something like a toe left in a trap, I highly doubt it was chewed, more likely twisted off.T.20
 
Originally posted by Tactical .20:
[qb]Hmmmm... I have caught a lot of coyote, fox and such, but I have never seen where one chewed its leg. There has been some damage due to loss of swiveling or being wrapped in a fence, but never chewed. The only ones that have chewed were coons and skunks, because they were bitting the trap, it was the numb part inside of the jaws that was damaged, not any above.
If someone sees something like a toe left in a trap, I highly doubt it was chewed, more likely twisted off.T.20[/qb]
Click to expand...
Well put T20.I think you explained it better than I could.

Tommy I hear ya,summertime blues stink. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Nasa...

If you really want to have a good discussion about theory why dont you grab a few of Richard Dawkins books . These topics you brought up just scrach the surface of the topics brought up in his books.....oh yeah by the way I have heard about a study were they found out that crows can count up to 8 or 9 and once I find the source i'll post it here. Good luck on those books... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Here is a site on crows and counting..still looking for the other study I heard about.

http://www.geocities.com/jswortham/corvus.html

NY Yote
 
Just something to think about. I have seen more feet left at the trap site after it had been broken off by the coyote fighting the trap, than I ever saw actually chewed off. I believe that animals can in fact think, but not at same level as humans do.
 
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