Shot placement qestion for 243 shooters

Originally Posted By: 06x6spdGTOOkay so it’s a piece of coyote......
Why did it run away? Why did the bullet remove a Chunk of coyote at 120 yds on a facing shot but all I could find is a wad of copper and blood?

Why didn’t the coyote die? Did the bullet open so quickly it blew a piece 10+ft In the air and the end result was the dog on video running away? What changed to go from losing 4 outta 5 to suddenly not losing 1 the next 2 years?

Why would Nosler tell me, after watching that video, don’t run the 55 NBT run the 70? To the point of trading me boxes of 55s for boxes of 70s.

i have hunted and killed coyotes over 50 years. i still cant answer most of those questions.

i have seen and experienced some things over the years with coyotes that i just cant explain.


my best answer is "sometimes chit happens"
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG

Originally Posted By: 06x6spdGTOWhy would Nosler tell me, after watching that video, don’t run the 55 NBT run the 70? To the point of trading me boxes of 55s for boxes of 70s. Because whatever you're doing, it's not working (see above) so he recommended you use something else. Easier than trying to argue with someone who sincerely believes the jacket "bounced off" a coyote and can be seen flying 15 feet up into the air on thermal video. It's not worth arguing with the incorrect customer, just make him happy and move on. I do not believe he actually agreed with you that the jacket can be seen bouncing off a coyote. He instead probably said you'd be better off with a heavier more solid bullet.

there ya go.
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGOriginally Posted By: 06x6spdGTOOkay so it’s a piece of coyote......
Why did it run away? Why did the bullet remove a Chunk of coyote at 120 yds on a facing shot but all I could find is a wad of copper and blood?

Why didn’t the coyote die? Did the bullet open so quickly it blew a piece 10+ft In the air and the end result was the dog on video running away? What changed to go from losing 4 outta 5 to suddenly not losing 1 the next 2 years? The chances are extremely high that it was a bad shot. Why? Poor shot placement/aiming, poor accuracy, poor sight picture with pixilated thermal graphics, electronic optics that can alter your zero day to day or hour by hour, difficulty in obtaining a precise zero to begin with, darkness. Need more reasons?

Originally Posted By: 06x6spdGTOWhy would Nosler tell me, after watching that video, don’t run the 55 NBT run the 70? To the point of trading me boxes of 55s for boxes of 70s. Because whatever you're doing, it's not working (see above) so he recommended you use something else. Easier than trying to argue with someone who sincerely believes the jacket "bounced off" a coyote and can be seen flying 15 feet up into the air on thermal video. It's not worth arguing with the incorrect customer, just make him happy and move on. I do not believe he actually agreed with you that the jacket can be seen bouncing off a coyote. He instead probably said you'd be better off with a heavier more solid bullet.

99% chance that was a chunk of tissue flying in the air, not the jacket. It's POSSIBLE but highly unlikely, and you haven't provided any evidence that shows it was actually the jacket. All you have is poor quality video that seems to obviously show a bouncing reticle and flying chunk of flesh. Did you recover the jacket? A fast, thin jacketed varmint bullet, that is designed for "violent expansion", does not simply shed it's jacket and the jacket bounces off.


Yes, "Why Did All I find was blood and a wad of copper?"

If you didn't have to embed URL's from Photobucket to post pictures and resize everything off of your phone this wouldn't be a problem.

But just for you its now my Avatar. Also curious how you are getting the entire bullet or the entire jacket off what I said originally, if I miss spoke I apologize.

Back to the end results regardless if asteroid, piece of jacket, chunk of coyote, or alloy terminator.

So 4 for 5 were bad shots.... That resulted in a spin cycle run. The one recovered had a large cut down her chest and wasn't killed by the bullet but rather a blunt swung object.

I take it all back, to the OP .243 cal 55gr NBT's are amazing! Don't mind my luck or others that I know that have had similar luck. I'm just making this all up as I go and mistakenly posted my poor shooting ability or terrible Thermal Zero in PM forum.

Shoot whatever you want.
 
Last edited:
You had 5 coyotes that you lost 4 of, and that all in one weekend. Plus all 5 were straight on facing shots, and then you get an attitude because others say the 55 BT's kill very well., Apparently you are upset because we told you it wasn't the bullet jacket that you saw fly into the air. Well?
 
Looking at your avatar, it appears that what you recovered was the solid base of the NBT and obvious that, as the Nosler tech concluded, the 55's are splashing upon impact. Thus his recommendation of the heavier bullet, which is working for you.

Really doesn't make any difference whether it was a chunk of coyote or bullet in the video, the fact remains that the 55's were failing....probably splashing on all 5 (frontal) shots. Was the "bullet failure" due to being driven above optimum velocity, or did it (they) fly an inch off course and hit a shoulder bone, or, a combination of both......it really matters not, since increasing bullet weight obviously resolved the problem, whether by reducing velocity or increasing the mass, or both.

Regards,
hm
 
Originally Posted By: hm1996Looking at your avatar, it appears that what you recovered was the solid base of the NBT and obvious that, as the Nosler tech concluded, the 55's are splashing upon impact. Thus his recommendation of the heavier bullet, which is working for you.

Really doesn't make any difference whether it was a chunk of coyote or bullet in the video, the fact remains that the 55's were failing....probably splashing on all 5 (frontal) shots. Was the "bullet failure" due to being driven above optimum velocity, or did it (they) fly an inch off course and hit a shoulder bone, or, a combination of both......it really matters not, since increasing bullet weight obviously resolved the problem, whether by reducing velocity or increasing the mass, or both.

Regards,
hm



thumbup1.gif
 
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotso what is with the avatar picture you have now?


Not sure anymore.... And I'm afraid to answer.
Ground-up unicorn horn, piece of coyote, part of a bullet, whatever is going to have less conflict.

I've debated sending it off, the old one, to the FBI Firearms & Toolmarks Unit for investigation, but I don't know if they have anyone that has shot coyotes. So not sure if their professional opinion can be trusted.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotso what is with the avatar picture you have now?


He's changed it again. It was a picture of what appeared to me to be a (very) expanded bullet jacket (all the way back to what appeared to be a solid copper base of a NBT) The cavity was packed with dirt or tissue.

Originally Posted By: 06x6spdGTOIf you didn't have to embed URL's from Photobucket to post pictures and resize everything off of your phone this wouldn't be a problem.

But just for you its now my Avatar. Also curious how you are getting the entire bullet or the entire jacket off what I said originally, if I miss spoke I apologize.

ETA: I have to agree w/Dave & others the mystery item was probably not jacket parts of the exploded bullet as they would have embedded in fur.

Regards,
hm
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: hm1996... the 55's are splashing upon impact.

Was the "bullet failure" due to being driven above optimum velocity, or did it (they) fly an inch off course and hit a shoulder bone, or, a combination of both......it really matters not, since increasing bullet weight obviously resolved the problem, whether by reducing velocity or increasing the mass, or both.

Regards,
hm



Splash happens. I have a lot of experience with it, unfortunately. Nature of the hot rods I like to play with.

And velocity is normally a prime component. But there are other factors that can contribute.

In this case, I don't think it's just velocity. Since the DTI is a pretty pedestrian chambering. The guy doesn't say what velocity he was pushing them, unless I missed it. But the DTI is a slow poke.

As I mentioned earlier, I have killed a bit over 200 coyote with the 55 NBT. No splash, or, at least not any splash that has resulted in a runner. At a MV a bit under 4,300 fps.

I have watched my partner kill several hundred more with the same bullet, with a MV just over 4,000.

The DTI can't run anywhere near those.

I don't doubt he had splash. And I'm not going to bother talking about the various factors that could be involved. It usually is primarily velocity. But there's something else/more going on here.

Doesn't matter. He's moved on and is happy. Other than, I'd not be too quick to indict the 55 NBT. Our experience has been that it's extremely lethal on coyote at the velocities we push them. His rifle, apparently, not so much.

As Slick said, stuff happens.

Oh, I would also point out, before ditching this thread for good... The tech was incorrect in stating that the jacket thickness of the 55 NBT is approximately the same as a .224 40 gr. I have sectioned both, and, for that matter, all of the bullets mentioned in this thread. And that simply isn't correct. For that matter, the jacket on the 55 NBT is thicker than that of the 65 Vmax mentioned.

The .243 55 NBT

20190826_Sectioned%20Bullets-29W.jpg


And a 58 Vmax (I don't have pics of any .224 40's or the 65 Vmax uploaded and am not going to bother, but the 65 is the same as this 58 - section them yourself if you doubt me).

20190826_Sectioned%20Bullets-30W.jpg


- DAA
 
Originally Posted By: 06x6spdGTOHad terrible luck with 55grn and 58grn .243 projectiles 2 years ago (4 outta 5 were runners in 1 weekend). I suggest you call some bullet manufacturers. Had video I sent to Nosler regarding the 55 NBT. You could see the jacket hit square in the chest on a dog under 120 yds and bounce off.

The gentlemen on the phone described 55grn .243 cal jacket thickness = to a .224 cal 40 grain jacket thickness. Nosler recommends the 55 NBT for Woodchucks and prairie dog sized game. I have since moved to their 70grn NBT and its anchored every dog it has contacted since even those shot in the rear hip while quartering away.

Also Nosler NBT's are solid Copper base Boat Tails, Vmax/Blitzking and Varmegedon are Cup and Draw bullets. Making the Nosler Ballistic Tip a more rigid construction for penetration vs the other 3.

The 70grn NBT load I am using now is 42.3 grn RL-15 3580fps for .243 win. And H335 @ 3300 fps for 6mmDTI.

Read this awhile back, while browsing. Decided to post my results from this weekend, as I feel reading this cursed me.

Between my brother-in-law (shooting .243 Win, 55gr Nosler BT 3930fps) and myself (shooting my 6mm Remington, 55 Nosler BT @ 4015-4020fps). Had 4 runners over a day calling. 3 were facing shots, 1 quartering away.
2 probably 175-200 yds. Other 2 250-300yds. Split even between 6 REM and .243 Win.

I didn’t see any “bullet bounce” or fragmented off any. But all 4 went to death spin, then full speed runs. Blood trails were light and we tracked them with the Side by side for well over 400 yds with no song dogs recovered.

I remembered reading of this post after the 3rd runner.

Got up early the next morning and verified both zeros with the 55gr Noslers on both rifles. However, I opted to switch to my 6mm-06 with 90 GameChangers and my Brother-in-law went 22-250 with 55 GameKing SBTs.

Ended up getting 3 on a short day. 2 with 22-250, 1 with the 90 GameChanger at 440 yds or so.

Long story short, after 4+ years running the 55 Nosler Ballistic Tips. I’ll be pulling them and going to heavier bullets. Stinks trying to load develop when the season has started, but I’ve lost confidence after 4 consecutive lost coyotes in a single outing.

My brother-in-law summed it up as “Could’ve run .204R, saved powder and had similar results”.

Not sure if something has changed in the bullet mfg process for the 55s at Nosler or what. But this was beyond disappointing.
 
Back
Top