What am I doing wrong? Cases getting stuck in chamber

This came up not too long ago and it wasn't the sizer that is the problem but the seater. Take your fully sized case and try them in the chamber before you load them gentally closing the bolt. Even if they are not bumped back enough they should drop right out of the chamber if you don't jam them, if they are too long the bolt shouldn't close or just partially.

If the fully sized cases fit well and loaded ammo sticks more than likely it is the sizing die and you are hitting the crimp ring slightly and shoving the neck back expanding the shoulder, it doesn't take much, easy cure back off the seating die a whole turn and re-adjust your seating stem. If the bullet is seated too long the bullet usually gets pushed back into the case and you will see the rifling engraved on the bullet and the OAL will be shorter than when you loaded it, or the bullet will stick in the rifling and you will pull the bullet out of the neck extracting
 
I am using a Lee #4 shell holder.
Plant.One - Thank you for that schematic. I measured a handful of sized and fired brass. I'm going to list some of my measurments below (I'm not the greatest with calipers and got some variation over multiple cases).
Cases are trimmed to 1.745/1.750

Right behind the shoulder - Sized .352/.353 Fired .355/.357

Case Web - Sized .373 Fired .374/.375

headspace with the Hornady Comparator- Sized 1.464/1.4665 Fired 1.465/1.467 These were essentially the same, the very slight difference I would attribute to slight primer cratering on the fired rounds. I was pretty confident that these measurments are correct, so it seems that my sizing die is not bumping the shoulders back at all. Is that correct?

I have the die set so that the shell holder touches the die when the ram is all the way up, so it sounds like there is nothing I can do other than grinding .010 off the shell holder.

AWS- I do not have my seating die set up to crimp at all. I haven't pulled these yet but the last time I pulled some 223 there was zero crimp marks on the bullet.

And again, this problem with the rounds getting stuck only seems to occur with my Winchester cases.
 
So after checking all of the above I dug around in the reloading room and started checking other sized brass with the Hornady Comparator and chambering them. I should have done this sooner but I'm slow sometimes. Remington, Federal, and LC sized cases mostly all measured 1.462 and those chambered and ejected just fine. I found a few as high as 1.464 and those were getting pretty sticky. I found one LC that was 1.465 and that one requred both hands on the charging handle. They are nice and clean so if they were all dirty like rounds get in the magazine when shooting a suppressor they would have been worse I'm sure.
So it looks like I need to get to 1.462 for smooth extraction and for whatever reason that is not very reliable with my old Winchester brass, which is a bummer because I have probably 700+ pieces of Win all trimmed up and no primer crimps.

I also don't understand why I am getting so much variation in headspace on sized brass, even in the same headstamp. Across all headstamps I'm getting as much as .01 variance. I am using a cheapo Lee Challenger press and should invest in something better but I don't know that it is causing the problem. I generally get sub MOA accuracy, but that may explain some fliers.

Thanks for the help. Now I know what the problem is I'm just not sure how to fix the occasional inconsistencies I'm getting with brass other than Winchester. And I don't know what to do with the Winchester at all? I feel like I need to just start over and buy new dies and a good press but I hate to just throw money at a problem and hope it works.
 
I have had problems with old Win brass from an oversized Rem 22-250 chamber. The brass had enough spring back over a couple years that 2-3 out of 10 would have a very stiff bolt close. Annealing and resizing worked for shooting soon, left some for a year as a control. Resulted in a stiff bolt again. I have no way to know if other brands would have had same results only Winchester brass had been through that barrel(replaced after that). First figure out how to get all your brass sized to your rifles chamber, from your measurements and your way of setting up your sizing die you will need to take .005 off the shell holder.
 
Originally Posted By: GreyhunterSo after checking all of the above I dug around in the reloading room and started checking other sized brass with the Hornady Comparator and chambering them. I should have done this sooner but I'm slow sometimes. Remington, Federal, and LC sized cases mostly all measured 1.462 and those chambered and ejected just fine. I found a few as high as 1.464 and those were getting pretty sticky. I found one LC that was 1.465 and that one requred both hands on the charging handle. They are nice and clean so if they were all dirty like rounds get in the magazine when shooting a suppressor they would have been worse I'm sure.
So it looks like I need to get to 1.462 for smooth extraction and for whatever reason that is not very reliable with my old Winchester brass, which is a bummer because I have probably 700+ pieces of Win all trimmed up and no primer crimps.

I also don't understand why I am getting so much variation in headspace on sized brass, even in the same headstamp. Across all headstamps I'm getting as much as .01 variance. I am using a cheapo Lee Challenger press and should invest in something better but I don't know that it is causing the problem. I generally get sub MOA accuracy, but that may explain some fliers.

Thanks for the help. Now I know what the problem is I'm just not sure how to fix the occasional inconsistencies I'm getting with brass other than Winchester. And I don't know what to do with the Winchester at all? I feel like I need to just start over and buy new dies and a good press but I hate to just throw money at a problem and hope it works.



if you wanna throw money at something - do it to your shell holder.

a rcbs #10 shell holder (223) is under $7 start there.

http://a.co/3Yo8vJH


theres probably nothing at all wrong with your lee press. that challenger is a good solid design. its not like you're gonna see much flex out of any "O" frame style press like that.

it sounds like you're either dealing with springback (which would need annealing to fix) or you're simply not getting enough shoulder bump due to how far your case rim sits in the shell holder. as i noted above - the rcbs can be the fix for that without any grinding or sanding to be had.

Unless you're a machinist, or know someone who is, its very easy to get off true for the surface where the shell holder and the die meet, so you may cause yourself more grief than good by shaving your current one down, plus you 100% void any warranty you might have left on it.

just thoughts to ponder
 
I have never annealed cases before. I don't know if spotstalkshoot's experience was typical of annealing but if it is it wouldn't work for me. I like to work up a bunch of brass when I'm in the mood and then reload it as needed until I run out, possibly years later. I have a lot of brass on hand so I'm not married to the Winchester, it's just what I've always used for my coyote loads. Other than sweat equity, it was free anyway.

I'm going to pick up the RCBS shell holder and see what happens, seems like the cheapest place to start.
Thanks again for the assistance everyone.
 
The experience I had with spring back, is due to differences in chamber size in firearms. If brass is fired in a "large chamber" there is a possibility that it may "spring back" after sizing, probably becoming an issue in a different firearm. If all your brass has always been used in that one rifle you need only to adjust the dies properly.
 
Originally Posted By: Plant.one sounds like you're either dealing with springback (which would need annealing to fix) or you're simply not getting enough shoulder bump due to how far your case rim sits in the shell holder.

Originally Posted By: spotstalkshootThe experience I had with spring back, is due to differences in chamber size in firearms. If brass is fired in a "large chamber" there is a possibility that it may "spring back" after sizing, probably becoming an issue in a different firearm. If all your brass has always been used in that one rifle you need only to adjust the dies properly.

Originally Posted By: GreyhunterOther than sweat equity, it was free anyway.


My money is on the brass. Sounds like you're using "undocumented" (pun intended), otherwise identified as range pickup brass. Two problems w/range pickups. No one knows what size chamber it was originally fired in, nor how many firings on various cases (which in itself can lead to problems).

I'd suggest you get some unfired brass (either a bag of new brass or a box of factory ammo). Set your seater properly, either according to press/die instructions, or better yet according to your L&L comparator readings from a (preferably once fired case) fired in your rifle. An AR comparator reading will most likely be slightly longer than actual chamber than a case fired in a bolt gun due to the fact the AR unlocks under pressure and can cause brass to expand/stretch a bit more as it loses support of the rifle chamber before pressure has completely subsided.

Size your once fired cases in properly set die and check in your rifle for extraction. I'd bet they will extract fine.

Springback occurs, even on brass fired in your chamber and increases with the number of time that particular case is cycled, no matter the brand of brass. For that reason, I keep all my brass in lots, based on the number of "firings".

Here is a very good example of springback , caused by multiple firings without annealing.

ETA: If cases resized per method above still stick, don't be afraid to grind a few thousandths off your shell holder. That will allow you to screw the die down a bit if necessary to size cases sufficiently for a particular chamber. You can always back the die off and continue using altered shell holder to fit longer chambers.

One other (less likely) problem that can cause a round to stick in chamber is a mal-adjusted seater die when applying a crimp.

Regards,
hm
 
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I have seen this in multiple guns I have also. Now I measure the different manufacturers brass, shell holders, bullets and chambers and write it all down. As was mentioned earlier, loose chambers will harden brass quicker and your brass will have more spring back. Annealing will correct this.
The datum line measurement for brass in my .264 mag needs to be 2.161 or shorter. Free bolt closing is at 2.160, bolts drags at 2.161 & 2.162. When my brass gets to 2.161 after resizing, I know It's time to anneal that batch of brass.

I use Redding shell holders as I have more consistent deck height / measurements than the RCBS, Hornady and Lee shell holders I have. I have dies in 9mm from Redding, Lee, Hornady, I think RCBS also and the shell holders to match, 2 each. After fighting rounds not chamfering in a tight chambered Glock, The deck height on the Redding SH resized more of the case and helped me resolve my issue. The resizing die didn't matter. The different sizing dies also gave different brass measurements. After I measured and figured all this out, I placed paper and plastic strips under the brass to see how much slop each shell holder had... real eye opener...

The 2 areas I double check on brass would be the case head and shoulder/ datum line measurements. 'IF' you seat bullets close to the lands, you will find bullet dimensions vary as much if not more than shell holders. I sort my bullets by bearing surface lengths and measure seating depth or OAL at the ogive, not the bullet tip. So after all of this, I set my die to bump the shoulder to 2.159 and OAL at the ogive to 2.718 +/- .001 and I'm good.

I would also weight your Winchester brass. It will probably be thicker than other brass you have, making it a bit harder to resize and anneal. My Nosler and Norma brass weighs between 210 grains and 212 grs. The 100 cases of Winchester range from 227-235 grs. That's a big swing when I'd rather keep it no more than 2 grs difference per batch.
 
Originally Posted By: spotstalkshootThe experience I had with spring back, is due to differences in chamber size in firearms. If brass is fired in a "large chamber" there is a possibility that it may "spring back" after sizing, probably becoming an issue in a different firearm.

Among other things, I think exactly this happened. This batch of Win brass was once fired from a Police Dept back about 9-10 years ago. I think I got 6-700 rds. I'm sure it was originally fired in a 556 chamber and then fired once or twice more in either my 556 chambered rifle or my 223 Wylde, then resized a couple years ago. I then switched to another 223 Wylde chamber and really started having trouble with it. I'd have a couple stuck cases a year with the old barrel but with the new barrel almost all of them stuck and a few wouldn't even fire.
Headspace lengths on the 150 or so rounds of loaded ammo I had varied as much as .013". I measured them all, salvaged about 30 and pulled the rest.
I bought a new RCBS shellholder thinking I had a Lee, but come to find out it was also a RCBS. Still, the new one is .0035 shorter than the original.
Also, even though I was setting the dies up according to the directions with the shellholder touching the die I could see that they were not touching when sizing brass. So I lowered the die a bit more and was able to bump the shoulders back further. Problem was, with the old Win brass, headspace measurements were all over the place after resizing. It was like some took the additional bump and some did not.
All of other brands of sized brass I have on hand, sized at least 2-5 years ago, were still just fine and chambered and ejected normally.

Now that I now the problem is the Win brass this isn't a huge deal. I probably have 3000-4000+ of other brands of brass on hand but less than half of it has been fully processed. And I despise primer crimps! I was always under the impression that Win was some of the best of the common brass but that doesn't seem to be the case with this lot.
 
I'd try annealing one or two and see what that does also. Sounds like your die set-up is sizing other brass sufficiently? Interesting banter here......
 
Once I started using the case gauge, I got to wondering how I ever got along w/o it. Didn't really have any problems, prior, but things sure go easier w/ one.
 
Nothing wrong with Winchester brass. 1st off, if your cases are incorrectly resized you may not need to pull the bullet. I've use the Redding body die to correctly resize improperly sized loaded cases without any type of problem. If you don't like the idea of resizing a loaded case, I understand that position.

As to checking headspace - Lots of various tools out there that will get the job done but I doubt you'll find a commercial model that will be better than a digital gage - here's a good one:
http://www.larrywillis.com/

If you want, you could always purchase the digital headspace gage and set the Redding Body die to bump the shoulder back 0.002 to 0.004 from your fired case measurements, then run the case through a neck size only die, then a Redding Competition Seating die and finally a Redding Micro-Adjustable Taper Crimp die. For both speed and accuracy you might consider purchasing the Hornady LnL Progressive Press if going this route.
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Never pull an AR firing pin while checking for function. Almost guanteeded to lock it up and may require a whole lot of gyrations to clear it.

Greg
 
Originally Posted By: JoeyJYou are absolutely correct Greg, a senior moment on my part and I made the correction.

I've heard of guys grinding the pin short to check case fit with loaded rounds.

Greg
 
Originally Posted By: Mike BI'd try annealing one or two and see what that does also. Sounds like your die set-up is sizing other brass sufficiently? Interesting banter here......
Yes, all my other headstamps seem to be just fine and all measure pretty consistently. This batch of Win brass is all over the place. I'm not sure what I'll do with it, probably just bag it up with with a printed copy of this thread to remind me, and deal with it some day when I'm retired or run out of other brass
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Originally Posted By: JoeyJNothing wrong with Winchester brass. 1st off, if your cases are incorrectly resized you may not need to pull the bullet. I've use the Redding body die to correctly resize improperly sized loaded cases without any type of problem. If you don't like the idea of resizing a loaded case, I understand that position.

As to checking headspace - Lots of various tools out there that will get the job done but I doubt you'll find a commercial model that will be better than a digital gage - here's a good one:
http://www.larrywillis.com/

If you want, you could always purchase the digital headspace gage and set the Redding Body die to bump the shoulder back 0.002 to 0.004 from your fired case measurements, then run the case through a neck size only die, then a Redding Competition Seating die and finally a Redding Micro-Adjustable Taper Crimp die. For both speed and accuracy you might consider purchasing the Hornady LnL Progressive Press if going this route.
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That digital headspace guage looks nice. The hornady comparator was cheap and helped me diagnose the problem though. My only issue with using it to adjust my dies specifically for MY chamber is that I have multiple AR's and I want to make sure my reloads work in all of them. Right now that is more important to me than chasing ultimate accuracy in a particular rig. I understand that it helps with case life also, but I get all the free brass I could ever need and I lose half of it hunting anyway. Unfortunately all the ammo our department buys now a days is primer crimped so that's the only real hassle.

Because this particular batch of brass seems so inconsistant I've already pulled the bullets, but when you resized loaded ammo were you using the full length or neck die? And did you do anything different or just lube and size as normal?

As for your last paragraph, I'm pretty sure I'd have an aneurysm just triying to get all that set up properly!
 
To re-size loaded brass you need a FL Bushing die with the bushing removed.

It sounds like you really need a annealer if your trying to use the same brass for multiple rifles.

Size everything back to factory specs.

Expect an occasional case head separation if you load too many times.

Get a crimped prime pocket repair tool and take all that FREE brass and reload it once and sell it

easy crimp removal
http://www.ch4d.com/products/equipment/priming-tools/psk
 
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