Pulsar XP50 Zero Issues and Info
- Thread starter Bowhntr6pt
- Start date
Bowhntr6pt
Well-known member
If it were a mount issue it would not zero to begin with... and I certainly would not get good groups as others have experienced.
As far as firmware, I have the most recent update that gave me audio.
As far as firmware, I have the most recent update that gave me audio.
Bowhntr6pt
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: igorJust my opinion but I don't think the zero shifting is as much due to temperature and mount but temperature and something internal related if it is temperature related at all. I just finished a 9 day test of a good friends scope. All rounds were fired from an extremely reliable rifle with same ammo. Grouping was great as usual. Majority of groups were sub moa. Shot the unit 5 separate days in 9 days. Zeroed first day. 2 days later zero had shifted 1.25 inches right. 2 days later held that zero. 2 days later held that zero again. Today zero had shifted another 1.25 inches right and 3 inches high. Temperature was 60 40 50 30 35. LaRue mount used and never removed scope from gun. Pretty close to the same experience that I have had with the two units I received from Pulsar March/April 2017. My friends unit was his second from Pulsar and purchased about mid March. I have been hoping we just got caught up in a bad lot that was assembled and sold April/March 2017. I would be interested in learning when some of these other bad units were manufactured and sold.
Have you or are you going to send yours back?
Have you or are you going to send yours back?
Kirsch
Active member
Mine is set to auto-calibrate as well. It sounds like a lot of guys don't do this, but to me once the scope is on for awhile, calibration is minimal. The power button on the Trail is hard to find and push with gloves on, so I let it auto-nuc.
I can't find a factor besides cold.
Take Scope off: Can do this as often as I like and POI shift doesn't happen (at least with a zero delta). Well, maybe .25 inches or something, but not anything to really register.
Turn Unit Off/NUC: I can turn the unit off and on as many times as you like, no change in POI shift. Have not seen any difference when unit goes through NUC.
Mount: Per the recommendation of many I run the ZRODLTA mount, and used blue Loctite on mounts to make sure it isn't moving. This is supposed to be about the best option out there for consistent POI. Apparently there have been some users with issues mounting the factory mount. If the gun wouldn't group, this would make sense. When your groups are MOA, but POI is shifting, this is different.
Sending Back: Pulsar NA support has been very understanding and have offered on multiple occasions to replace my unit. The only issue is they are out of stock and told me today they are about 7 weeks out right now. This situation is extremely frustrating but our Night season is almost over. I will limp along until it is over and send it back for replacement at that time.
Is there a pattern: Yes, but I can't get it to be the exact same pattern. The colder it gets, the lower the groups will be. And before someone asks, yes, I realize cold can impact powder, bores, barrels, etc. However, my gun is free-floated, and I am using XBR 8028 powder which is about as good as it gets as far as temp sensitivity. I have also tested where only the scope was warmed, so the gun, barrel, ammo and everything else was kept at the same temp and only the scope was heated, and the shift happened.
My groups are always good. However, as soon as my scope gets subjected to above freezing temps (house or vehicle) and freezing temps, my POI moves. Almost always, down as it gets colder. Not always exactly the same, but similar. The only way I can limit it somewhat is to sight the gun in at as close to hunting temp as possible, and then I leave it in a case in an unheated garage and in the back of the truck, until a hunting trip is done. Once the scope gets any type of heat on it, all bets are off. It could be temp and something else, but from I can tell, temp is the biggest thing.
I can't find a factor besides cold.
Take Scope off: Can do this as often as I like and POI shift doesn't happen (at least with a zero delta). Well, maybe .25 inches or something, but not anything to really register.
Turn Unit Off/NUC: I can turn the unit off and on as many times as you like, no change in POI shift. Have not seen any difference when unit goes through NUC.
Mount: Per the recommendation of many I run the ZRODLTA mount, and used blue Loctite on mounts to make sure it isn't moving. This is supposed to be about the best option out there for consistent POI. Apparently there have been some users with issues mounting the factory mount. If the gun wouldn't group, this would make sense. When your groups are MOA, but POI is shifting, this is different.
Sending Back: Pulsar NA support has been very understanding and have offered on multiple occasions to replace my unit. The only issue is they are out of stock and told me today they are about 7 weeks out right now. This situation is extremely frustrating but our Night season is almost over. I will limp along until it is over and send it back for replacement at that time.
Is there a pattern: Yes, but I can't get it to be the exact same pattern. The colder it gets, the lower the groups will be. And before someone asks, yes, I realize cold can impact powder, bores, barrels, etc. However, my gun is free-floated, and I am using XBR 8028 powder which is about as good as it gets as far as temp sensitivity. I have also tested where only the scope was warmed, so the gun, barrel, ammo and everything else was kept at the same temp and only the scope was heated, and the shift happened.
My groups are always good. However, as soon as my scope gets subjected to above freezing temps (house or vehicle) and freezing temps, my POI moves. Almost always, down as it gets colder. Not always exactly the same, but similar. The only way I can limit it somewhat is to sight the gun in at as close to hunting temp as possible, and then I leave it in a case in an unheated garage and in the back of the truck, until a hunting trip is done. Once the scope gets any type of heat on it, all bets are off. It could be temp and something else, but from I can tell, temp is the biggest thing.
Yes Bow I sent the first one back almost immediately but the second one has been with me for almost 10 months. In December I talked to Pulsar about another unit but the lady I talked to didn't sound very encouraging for a timely turnaround. I've become dependent on it for scanning so I've just decided to be patient and watch how this all plays out. My 240 pound friend who's unit I was testing is headed to Dallas to talk to the folks down there and I feel sorry for whoever he gets ahold of down there. Not really, he's just another big ole friendly Texas boy lol. It is a bummer to get caught up in a deal like this and what hacks me off is some lame poster telling me "I'm sure glad I'm not having those problems". Well I hope for all of us that most people aren't having problems. I bought mine thru Amazon and can get a refund anytime I want, but I don't want a refund. I will be patient and helpful any way I can.
Kirsch
Active member
Originally Posted By: DoubleUpKorey, is this the Trail XQ38 that you are having problems with? Is it all the Trail models and have you seen any reports of the current Apex models XQ38 or XQ50 giving the same problems? I hope you can get it worked out to your satisfaction soon.
For me it is the Trail XQ38. From what I hear, my experience isn't as bad as others. However, there is enough shift, it has cost me lots of coyotes where the issue was no shooter error on placement or distance miscalculation.
I am following some threads on Facebook dealing with Pulsar and it seems like the majority of people having the issues are the Trail XP50 and XQ50 users. There are some with the 38s having issues including myself, but I don't know that I have heard of any with the 30. Maybe the size of the objective has a bearing, but not sure. Hadn't heard of many Apex users with issues but I posted one day on Facebook I may go to an Apex since they don't seem to have an issue. After the post, got some responses saying they owned an Apex and it shifted as well. If there is an issue with the earlier line, it doesn't seem to be nearly as common as with the Trail.
I absolutely love everything about the scope with the exception of the Power button being hard to turn on with gloves, and the POI situation. Features, battery, quality of build, image, etc are fantastic. Moving POI, not fantastic.
For me it is the Trail XQ38. From what I hear, my experience isn't as bad as others. However, there is enough shift, it has cost me lots of coyotes where the issue was no shooter error on placement or distance miscalculation.
I am following some threads on Facebook dealing with Pulsar and it seems like the majority of people having the issues are the Trail XP50 and XQ50 users. There are some with the 38s having issues including myself, but I don't know that I have heard of any with the 30. Maybe the size of the objective has a bearing, but not sure. Hadn't heard of many Apex users with issues but I posted one day on Facebook I may go to an Apex since they don't seem to have an issue. After the post, got some responses saying they owned an Apex and it shifted as well. If there is an issue with the earlier line, it doesn't seem to be nearly as common as with the Trail.
I absolutely love everything about the scope with the exception of the Power button being hard to turn on with gloves, and the POI situation. Features, battery, quality of build, image, etc are fantastic. Moving POI, not fantastic.
midwestkid
Member
Zero issues with my trail xq 30 in any temperature from -2 on up.
DoubleUp
Well-known member
Thanks Korey! I was thinking perhaps the Apex had a different software that might not be included in the Trail issues. From my reading it appears the POI shift was evident in the first models that came out last spring so it doesn't seem that any of the updates could be the culprit.
As I mentioned before I hope you get it sorted out. I know it must be very frustrating.
As I mentioned before I hope you get it sorted out. I know it must be very frustrating.
One thing I feel everyone needs to consider is... you are looking at thermal heat waves from an object. Heat detection is much slower than light transmission. Honestly to have a shift of 1-2" is not a dramatic thing. One has to remember these units are not benchrest optics set at 36x....these are thernal heat processing computers mounted to a firearm and shot.
As the image from a heat source is making its way to the scope to be processed, several things can happen to that heat signature. First off, like Mirage moves when it is blown by the wind, so does heat. Also one has to take in consideration the heat from the ground can effect the view of the target. Also weather and humidity conditions play a huge huge role.
Ideally your scope zero should be checked and adjusted on the same exact night you plan on hunting. But most people sight their scope in during the daytime under a complete different set of weather parameters than they will be hunting in at night.
I dont believe the scopes are having as much of a mounting problem casuing this as much as it is the "apperance of the target" to be in the same spot when its not.
For instance, PRS shooters know that as the sun rises and heat builds up that the target will actually be in a different location than where it appears in the scope. And if you dont know this or know how to correct for it, you will miss.
Keep in mind youre not seeing a light image of the target, youre seeing a "heat processed" image of the target. Where that taget actually is compared to where ur scope says it is could be different, and rightly so. Thermal scopes are a whole different ball game and in return we must think of them differently than day (light gathering) scopes.
As the image from a heat source is making its way to the scope to be processed, several things can happen to that heat signature. First off, like Mirage moves when it is blown by the wind, so does heat. Also one has to take in consideration the heat from the ground can effect the view of the target. Also weather and humidity conditions play a huge huge role.
Ideally your scope zero should be checked and adjusted on the same exact night you plan on hunting. But most people sight their scope in during the daytime under a complete different set of weather parameters than they will be hunting in at night.
I dont believe the scopes are having as much of a mounting problem casuing this as much as it is the "apperance of the target" to be in the same spot when its not.
For instance, PRS shooters know that as the sun rises and heat builds up that the target will actually be in a different location than where it appears in the scope. And if you dont know this or know how to correct for it, you will miss.
Keep in mind youre not seeing a light image of the target, youre seeing a "heat processed" image of the target. Where that taget actually is compared to where ur scope says it is could be different, and rightly so. Thermal scopes are a whole different ball game and in return we must think of them differently than day (light gathering) scopes.
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Kirsch
Active member
Catdog1,
I don't disagree and some minor shift could be somewhat normal, and thermal scopes are not nearly as precise as glass. 4"+ POI shift by simply putting some heat on a scope and in some more rare occasions, 12"+ isn't normal. Their Customer Service has been very good and they are openly offering a replacement when one is available and hopefully my next one will hold a more reliable POI.
I don't disagree and some minor shift could be somewhat normal, and thermal scopes are not nearly as precise as glass. 4"+ POI shift by simply putting some heat on a scope and in some more rare occasions, 12"+ isn't normal. Their Customer Service has been very good and they are openly offering a replacement when one is available and hopefully my next one will hold a more reliable POI.
Sledge
New member
Originally Posted By: Catdog1One thing I feel everyone needs to consider is... you are looking at thermal heat waves from an object. Heat detection is much slower than light transmission. Honestly to have a shift of 1-2" is not a dramatic thing. One has to remember these units are not benchrest optics set at 36x....these are thernal heat processing computers mounted to a firearm and shot.
As the image from a heat source is making its way to the scope to be processed, several things can happen to that heat signature. First off, like Mirage moves when it is blown by the wind, so does heat. Also one has to take in consideration the heat from the ground can effect the view of the target. Also weather and humidity conditions play a huge huge role.
Ideally your scope zero should be checked and adjusted on the same exact night you plan on hunting. But most people sight their scope in during the daytime under a complete different set of weather parameters than they will be hunting in at night.
I dont believe the scopes are having as much of a mounting problem casuing this as much as it is the "apperance of the target" to be in the same spot when its not.
For instance, PRS shooters know that as the sun rises and heat builds up that the target will actually be in a different location than where it appears in the scope. And if you dont know this or know how to correct for it, you will miss.
Keep in mind youre not seeing a light image of the target, youre seeing a "heat processed" image of the target. Where that taget actually is compared to where ur scope says it is could be different, and rightly so. Thermal scopes are a whole different ball game and in return we must think of them differently than day (light gathering) scopes.
I can say for sure that I have never experienced any of this. I've shot my setup on paper on multiple occasions, day/night, warm/cold, doesn't seem to matter. It'll hold 1/2" at 100 and I've shot many coyotes while they were standing still at over 300 yards. I would think that if there were some thermal 'mirage' going on, I would have experienced some of it through unexplained misses. Every shot I've missed, I knew it when the trigger broke.
As the image from a heat source is making its way to the scope to be processed, several things can happen to that heat signature. First off, like Mirage moves when it is blown by the wind, so does heat. Also one has to take in consideration the heat from the ground can effect the view of the target. Also weather and humidity conditions play a huge huge role.
Ideally your scope zero should be checked and adjusted on the same exact night you plan on hunting. But most people sight their scope in during the daytime under a complete different set of weather parameters than they will be hunting in at night.
I dont believe the scopes are having as much of a mounting problem casuing this as much as it is the "apperance of the target" to be in the same spot when its not.
For instance, PRS shooters know that as the sun rises and heat builds up that the target will actually be in a different location than where it appears in the scope. And if you dont know this or know how to correct for it, you will miss.
Keep in mind youre not seeing a light image of the target, youre seeing a "heat processed" image of the target. Where that taget actually is compared to where ur scope says it is could be different, and rightly so. Thermal scopes are a whole different ball game and in return we must think of them differently than day (light gathering) scopes.
I can say for sure that I have never experienced any of this. I've shot my setup on paper on multiple occasions, day/night, warm/cold, doesn't seem to matter. It'll hold 1/2" at 100 and I've shot many coyotes while they were standing still at over 300 yards. I would think that if there were some thermal 'mirage' going on, I would have experienced some of it through unexplained misses. Every shot I've missed, I knew it when the trigger broke.
Originally Posted By: SledgeOriginally Posted By: Catdog1One thing I feel everyone needs to consider is... you are looking at thermal heat waves from an object. Heat detection is much slower than light transmission. Honestly to have a shift of 1-2" is not a dramatic thing. One has to remember these units are not benchrest optics set at 36x....these are thernal heat processing computers mounted to a firearm and shot.
As the image from a heat source is making its way to the scope to be processed, several things can happen to that heat signature. First off, like Mirage moves when it is blown by the wind, so does heat. Also one has to take in consideration the heat from the ground can effect the view of the target. Also weather and humidity conditions play a huge huge role.
Ideally your scope zero should be checked and adjusted on the same exact night you plan on hunting. But most people sight their scope in during the daytime under a complete different set of weather parameters than they will be hunting in at night.
I dont believe the scopes are having as much of a mounting problem casuing this as much as it is the "apperance of the target" to be in the same spot when its not.
For instance, PRS shooters know that as the sun rises and heat builds up that the target will actually be in a different location than where it appears in the scope. And if you dont know this or know how to correct for it, you will miss.
Keep in mind youre not seeing a light image of the target, youre seeing a "heat processed" image of the target. Where that taget actually is compared to where ur scope says it is could be different, and rightly so. Thermal scopes are a whole different ball game and in return we must think of them differently than day (light gathering) scopes.
I can say for sure that I have never experienced any of this. I've shot my setup on paper on multiple occasions, day/night, warm/cold, doesn't seem to matter. It'll hold 1/2" at 100 and I've shot many coyotes while they were standing still at over 300 yards. I would think that if there were some thermal 'mirage' going on, I would have experienced some of it through unexplained misses. Every shot I've missed, I knew it when the trigger broke. 1/2 inch all day long everybody
As the image from a heat source is making its way to the scope to be processed, several things can happen to that heat signature. First off, like Mirage moves when it is blown by the wind, so does heat. Also one has to take in consideration the heat from the ground can effect the view of the target. Also weather and humidity conditions play a huge huge role.
Ideally your scope zero should be checked and adjusted on the same exact night you plan on hunting. But most people sight their scope in during the daytime under a complete different set of weather parameters than they will be hunting in at night.
I dont believe the scopes are having as much of a mounting problem casuing this as much as it is the "apperance of the target" to be in the same spot when its not.
For instance, PRS shooters know that as the sun rises and heat builds up that the target will actually be in a different location than where it appears in the scope. And if you dont know this or know how to correct for it, you will miss.
Keep in mind youre not seeing a light image of the target, youre seeing a "heat processed" image of the target. Where that taget actually is compared to where ur scope says it is could be different, and rightly so. Thermal scopes are a whole different ball game and in return we must think of them differently than day (light gathering) scopes.
I can say for sure that I have never experienced any of this. I've shot my setup on paper on multiple occasions, day/night, warm/cold, doesn't seem to matter. It'll hold 1/2" at 100 and I've shot many coyotes while they were standing still at over 300 yards. I would think that if there were some thermal 'mirage' going on, I would have experienced some of it through unexplained misses. Every shot I've missed, I knew it when the trigger broke. 1/2 inch all day long everybody
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Sledge
New member
Originally Posted By: Catdog1Originally Posted By: SledgeOriginally Posted By: Catdog1One thing I feel everyone needs to consider is... you are looking at thermal heat waves from an object. Heat detection is much slower than light transmission. Honestly to have a shift of 1-2" is not a dramatic thing. One has to remember these units are not benchrest optics set at 36x....these are thernal heat processing computers mounted to a firearm and shot.
As the image from a heat source is making its way to the scope to be processed, several things can happen to that heat signature. First off, like Mirage moves when it is blown by the wind, so does heat. Also one has to take in consideration the heat from the ground can effect the view of the target. Also weather and humidity conditions play a huge huge role.
Ideally your scope zero should be checked and adjusted on the same exact night you plan on hunting. But most people sight their scope in during the daytime under a complete different set of weather parameters than they will be hunting in at night.
I dont believe the scopes are having as much of a mounting problem casuing this as much as it is the "apperance of the target" to be in the same spot when its not.
For instance, PRS shooters know that as the sun rises and heat builds up that the target will actually be in a different location than where it appears in the scope. And if you dont know this or know how to correct for it, you will miss.
Keep in mind youre not seeing a light image of the target, youre seeing a "heat processed" image of the target. Where that taget actually is compared to where ur scope says it is could be different, and rightly so. Thermal scopes are a whole different ball game and in return we must think of them differently than day (light gathering) scopes.
I can say for sure that I have never experienced any of this. I've shot my setup on paper on multiple occasions, day/night, warm/cold, doesn't seem to matter. It'll hold 1/2" at 100 and I've shot many coyotes while they were standing still at over 300 yards. I would think that if there were some thermal 'mirage' going on, I would have experienced some of it through unexplained misses. Every shot I've missed, I knew it when the trigger broke. 1/2 inch all day long everybody
I'm more than a little sure that I never said
anything about "all day long". My response to your post was not meant to be a personal attack, if that's the way you took it. I simply disagree. My equipment has never performed in the way that you describe. I can assure you that there are a lot of people with better equipment than me and that are much better at putting it to use,that would disagree as well. I do not own the scope that is the topic of this thread. I'm only following because I have friends that do and would be interested in how this gets resolved.
As the image from a heat source is making its way to the scope to be processed, several things can happen to that heat signature. First off, like Mirage moves when it is blown by the wind, so does heat. Also one has to take in consideration the heat from the ground can effect the view of the target. Also weather and humidity conditions play a huge huge role.
Ideally your scope zero should be checked and adjusted on the same exact night you plan on hunting. But most people sight their scope in during the daytime under a complete different set of weather parameters than they will be hunting in at night.
I dont believe the scopes are having as much of a mounting problem casuing this as much as it is the "apperance of the target" to be in the same spot when its not.
For instance, PRS shooters know that as the sun rises and heat builds up that the target will actually be in a different location than where it appears in the scope. And if you dont know this or know how to correct for it, you will miss.
Keep in mind youre not seeing a light image of the target, youre seeing a "heat processed" image of the target. Where that taget actually is compared to where ur scope says it is could be different, and rightly so. Thermal scopes are a whole different ball game and in return we must think of them differently than day (light gathering) scopes.
I can say for sure that I have never experienced any of this. I've shot my setup on paper on multiple occasions, day/night, warm/cold, doesn't seem to matter. It'll hold 1/2" at 100 and I've shot many coyotes while they were standing still at over 300 yards. I would think that if there were some thermal 'mirage' going on, I would have experienced some of it through unexplained misses. Every shot I've missed, I knew it when the trigger broke. 1/2 inch all day long everybody
I'm more than a little sure that I never said
anything about "all day long". My response to your post was not meant to be a personal attack, if that's the way you took it. I simply disagree. My equipment has never performed in the way that you describe. I can assure you that there are a lot of people with better equipment than me and that are much better at putting it to use,that would disagree as well. I do not own the scope that is the topic of this thread. I'm only following because I have friends that do and would be interested in how this gets resolved.
Bowhntr6pt
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: Catdog1One thing I feel everyone needs to consider is... you are looking at thermal heat waves from an object. Heat detection is much slower than light transmission. Honestly to have a shift of 1-2" is not a dramatic thing. One has to remember these units are not benchrest optics set at 36x....these are thernal heat processing computers mounted to a firearm and shot.
As the image from a heat source is making its way to the scope to be processed, several things can happen to that heat signature. First off, like Mirage moves when it is blown by the wind, so does heat. Also one has to take in consideration the heat from the ground can effect the view of the target. Also weather and humidity conditions play a huge huge role.
Ideally your scope zero should be checked and adjusted on the same exact night you plan on hunting. But most people sight their scope in during the daytime under a complete different set of weather parameters than they will be hunting in at night.
I dont believe the scopes are having as much of a mounting problem casuing this as much as it is the "apperance of the target" to be in the same spot when its not.
For instance, PRS shooters know that as the sun rises and heat builds up that the target will actually be in a different location than where it appears in the scope. And if you dont know this or know how to correct for it, you will miss.
Keep in mind youre not seeing a light image of the target, youre seeing a "heat processed" image of the target. Where that taget actually is compared to where ur scope says it is could be different, and rightly so. Thermal scopes are a whole different ball game and in return we must think of them differently than day (light gathering) scopes.
What you're suggesting sounds good in theory, and per se, would be an absolute... if it were as you suggest, EVERYONE with a thermal would be experiencing this issue, and everyone is not. Some of us are having shifts whereas others are not.
If the heat waves were being "blown by the wind" on their way to the unit, we would not have the good groups we are getting now would we?
No... I'm highly suspicious there's something going on not related to your suggestion. Maybe I'm ignorant to the issue overall but are other thermal brands having the same continuous problems? Are they not using the same general technology?
All I've read about is Pulsar units causing the aggravation of shifting zeros.
ETA- I've shot in the hot FL and GA sun in the middle of the summer, well past 1K yards, and although mirage was something to contend with, I've never heard of this thing about targets being in a different spot than what I see in my scope... because I hit... just saying... so that doesn't wash with me. I'm no national PRS champion but I know my way around a long gun and distance shooting.
As the image from a heat source is making its way to the scope to be processed, several things can happen to that heat signature. First off, like Mirage moves when it is blown by the wind, so does heat. Also one has to take in consideration the heat from the ground can effect the view of the target. Also weather and humidity conditions play a huge huge role.
Ideally your scope zero should be checked and adjusted on the same exact night you plan on hunting. But most people sight their scope in during the daytime under a complete different set of weather parameters than they will be hunting in at night.
I dont believe the scopes are having as much of a mounting problem casuing this as much as it is the "apperance of the target" to be in the same spot when its not.
For instance, PRS shooters know that as the sun rises and heat builds up that the target will actually be in a different location than where it appears in the scope. And if you dont know this or know how to correct for it, you will miss.
Keep in mind youre not seeing a light image of the target, youre seeing a "heat processed" image of the target. Where that taget actually is compared to where ur scope says it is could be different, and rightly so. Thermal scopes are a whole different ball game and in return we must think of them differently than day (light gathering) scopes.
What you're suggesting sounds good in theory, and per se, would be an absolute... if it were as you suggest, EVERYONE with a thermal would be experiencing this issue, and everyone is not. Some of us are having shifts whereas others are not.
If the heat waves were being "blown by the wind" on their way to the unit, we would not have the good groups we are getting now would we?
No... I'm highly suspicious there's something going on not related to your suggestion. Maybe I'm ignorant to the issue overall but are other thermal brands having the same continuous problems? Are they not using the same general technology?
All I've read about is Pulsar units causing the aggravation of shifting zeros.
ETA- I've shot in the hot FL and GA sun in the middle of the summer, well past 1K yards, and although mirage was something to contend with, I've never heard of this thing about targets being in a different spot than what I see in my scope... because I hit... just saying... so that doesn't wash with me. I'm no national PRS champion but I know my way around a long gun and distance shooting.
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Originally Posted By: Bowhntr6ptOriginally Posted By: Catdog1One thing I feel everyone needs to consider is... you are looking at thermal heat waves from an object. Heat detection is much slower than light transmission. Honestly to have a shift of 1-2" is not a dramatic thing. One has to remember these units are not benchrest optics set at 36x....these are thernal heat processing computers mounted to a firearm and shot.
As the image from a heat source is making its way to the scope to be processed, several things can happen to that heat signature. First off, like Mirage moves when it is blown by the wind, so does heat. Also one has to take in consideration the heat from the ground can effect the view of the target. Also weather and humidity conditions play a huge huge role.
Ideally your scope zero should be checked and adjusted on the same exact night you plan on hunting. But most people sight their scope in during the daytime under a complete different set of weather parameters than they will be hunting in at night.
I dont believe the scopes are having as much of a mounting problem casuing this as much as it is the "apperance of the target" to be in the same spot when its not.
For instance, PRS shooters know that as the sun rises and heat builds up that the target will actually be in a different location than where it appears in the scope. And if you dont know this or know how to correct for it, you will miss.
Keep in mind youre not seeing a light image of the target, youre seeing a "heat processed" image of the target. Where that taget actually is compared to where ur scope says it is could be different, and rightly so. Thermal scopes are a whole different ball game and in return we must think of them differently than day (light gathering) scopes.
What you're suggesting sounds good in theory, and per se, would be an absolute... if it were as you suggest, EVERYONE with a thermal would be experiencing this issue, and everyone is not. Some of us are having shifts whereas others are not.
If the heat waves were being "blown by the wind" on their way to the unit, we would not have the good groups we are getting now would we?
No... I'm highly suspicious there's something going on not related to your suggestion. Maybe I'm ignorant to the issue overall but are other thermal brands having the same continuous problems? Are they not using the same general technology?
All I've read about is Pulsar units causing the aggravation of shifting zeros.
ETA- I've shot in the hot FL and GA sun in the middle of the summer, well past 1K yards, and although mirage was something to contend with, I've never heard of this thing about targets being in a different spot than what I see in my scope... because I hit... just saying... so that doesn't wash with me. I'm no national PRS champion but I know my way around a long gun and distance shooting.
https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-light-effects/
Here's a link to one article about this there's also a couple videos on YouTube I'll try to find those tomorrow and see if I can post them for you
As the image from a heat source is making its way to the scope to be processed, several things can happen to that heat signature. First off, like Mirage moves when it is blown by the wind, so does heat. Also one has to take in consideration the heat from the ground can effect the view of the target. Also weather and humidity conditions play a huge huge role.
Ideally your scope zero should be checked and adjusted on the same exact night you plan on hunting. But most people sight their scope in during the daytime under a complete different set of weather parameters than they will be hunting in at night.
I dont believe the scopes are having as much of a mounting problem casuing this as much as it is the "apperance of the target" to be in the same spot when its not.
For instance, PRS shooters know that as the sun rises and heat builds up that the target will actually be in a different location than where it appears in the scope. And if you dont know this or know how to correct for it, you will miss.
Keep in mind youre not seeing a light image of the target, youre seeing a "heat processed" image of the target. Where that taget actually is compared to where ur scope says it is could be different, and rightly so. Thermal scopes are a whole different ball game and in return we must think of them differently than day (light gathering) scopes.
What you're suggesting sounds good in theory, and per se, would be an absolute... if it were as you suggest, EVERYONE with a thermal would be experiencing this issue, and everyone is not. Some of us are having shifts whereas others are not.
If the heat waves were being "blown by the wind" on their way to the unit, we would not have the good groups we are getting now would we?
No... I'm highly suspicious there's something going on not related to your suggestion. Maybe I'm ignorant to the issue overall but are other thermal brands having the same continuous problems? Are they not using the same general technology?
All I've read about is Pulsar units causing the aggravation of shifting zeros.
ETA- I've shot in the hot FL and GA sun in the middle of the summer, well past 1K yards, and although mirage was something to contend with, I've never heard of this thing about targets being in a different spot than what I see in my scope... because I hit... just saying... so that doesn't wash with me. I'm no national PRS champion but I know my way around a long gun and distance shooting.
https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-light-effects/
Here's a link to one article about this there's also a couple videos on YouTube I'll try to find those tomorrow and see if I can post them for you
Bowhntr6pt
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: Catdog1Originally Posted By: Bowhntr6ptOriginally Posted By: Catdog1One thing I feel everyone needs to consider is... you are looking at thermal heat waves from an object. Heat detection is much slower than light transmission. Honestly to have a shift of 1-2" is not a dramatic thing. One has to remember these units are not benchrest optics set at 36x....these are thernal heat processing computers mounted to a firearm and shot.
As the image from a heat source is making its way to the scope to be processed, several things can happen to that heat signature. First off, like Mirage moves when it is blown by the wind, so does heat. Also one has to take in consideration the heat from the ground can effect the view of the target. Also weather and humidity conditions play a huge huge role.
Ideally your scope zero should be checked and adjusted on the same exact night you plan on hunting. But most people sight their scope in during the daytime under a complete different set of weather parameters than they will be hunting in at night.
I dont believe the scopes are having as much of a mounting problem casuing this as much as it is the "apperance of the target" to be in the same spot when its not.
For instance, PRS shooters know that as the sun rises and heat builds up that the target will actually be in a different location than where it appears in the scope. And if you dont know this or know how to correct for it, you will miss.
Keep in mind youre not seeing a light image of the target, youre seeing a "heat processed" image of the target. Where that taget actually is compared to where ur scope says it is could be different, and rightly so. Thermal scopes are a whole different ball game and in return we must think of them differently than day (light gathering) scopes.
What you're suggesting sounds good in theory, and per se, would be an absolute... if it were as you suggest, EVERYONE with a thermal would be experiencing this issue, and everyone is not. Some of us are having shifts whereas others are not.
If the heat waves were being "blown by the wind" on their way to the unit, we would not have the good groups we are getting now would we?
No... I'm highly suspicious there's something going on not related to your suggestion. Maybe I'm ignorant to the issue overall but are other thermal brands having the same continuous problems? Are they not using the same general technology?
All I've read about is Pulsar units causing the aggravation of shifting zeros.
ETA- I've shot in the hot FL and GA sun in the middle of the summer, well past 1K yards, and although mirage was something to contend with, I've never heard of this thing about targets being in a different spot than what I see in my scope... because I hit... just saying... so that doesn't wash with me. I'm no national PRS champion but I know my way around a long gun and distance shooting.
https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-light-effects/
Here's a link to one article about this there's also a couple videos on YouTube I'll try to find those tomorrow and see if I can post them for you
The article is basically useless IMO for my shooting... he says he can't quantify vertical change and says horizontal effect is perhaps 1/2" at 100 yards... Mirage is a combination of wind, heat, and light... that's nothing new.
Sorry to sound argumentative but I've shot in bright light, low light, and everything in-between and just have not observed this. Of course I'm a utility shooter and not a bench rest type guy so what do I know.
I've been to a few classes schooled by competent military and LE snipers and the instruction never included such info. While it may be true in scientific application, it's actual effect is debatable.
Again, if what you're suggesting reference thermal heat and image transfer/processing is applicable, how come EVERY thermal user is not having the same issue?
As the image from a heat source is making its way to the scope to be processed, several things can happen to that heat signature. First off, like Mirage moves when it is blown by the wind, so does heat. Also one has to take in consideration the heat from the ground can effect the view of the target. Also weather and humidity conditions play a huge huge role.
Ideally your scope zero should be checked and adjusted on the same exact night you plan on hunting. But most people sight their scope in during the daytime under a complete different set of weather parameters than they will be hunting in at night.
I dont believe the scopes are having as much of a mounting problem casuing this as much as it is the "apperance of the target" to be in the same spot when its not.
For instance, PRS shooters know that as the sun rises and heat builds up that the target will actually be in a different location than where it appears in the scope. And if you dont know this or know how to correct for it, you will miss.
Keep in mind youre not seeing a light image of the target, youre seeing a "heat processed" image of the target. Where that taget actually is compared to where ur scope says it is could be different, and rightly so. Thermal scopes are a whole different ball game and in return we must think of them differently than day (light gathering) scopes.
What you're suggesting sounds good in theory, and per se, would be an absolute... if it were as you suggest, EVERYONE with a thermal would be experiencing this issue, and everyone is not. Some of us are having shifts whereas others are not.
If the heat waves were being "blown by the wind" on their way to the unit, we would not have the good groups we are getting now would we?
No... I'm highly suspicious there's something going on not related to your suggestion. Maybe I'm ignorant to the issue overall but are other thermal brands having the same continuous problems? Are they not using the same general technology?
All I've read about is Pulsar units causing the aggravation of shifting zeros.
ETA- I've shot in the hot FL and GA sun in the middle of the summer, well past 1K yards, and although mirage was something to contend with, I've never heard of this thing about targets being in a different spot than what I see in my scope... because I hit... just saying... so that doesn't wash with me. I'm no national PRS champion but I know my way around a long gun and distance shooting.
https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/long-range-shooting-external-ballistics-light-effects/
Here's a link to one article about this there's also a couple videos on YouTube I'll try to find those tomorrow and see if I can post them for you
The article is basically useless IMO for my shooting... he says he can't quantify vertical change and says horizontal effect is perhaps 1/2" at 100 yards... Mirage is a combination of wind, heat, and light... that's nothing new.
Sorry to sound argumentative but I've shot in bright light, low light, and everything in-between and just have not observed this. Of course I'm a utility shooter and not a bench rest type guy so what do I know.
I've been to a few classes schooled by competent military and LE snipers and the instruction never included such info. While it may be true in scientific application, it's actual effect is debatable.
Again, if what you're suggesting reference thermal heat and image transfer/processing is applicable, how come EVERY thermal user is not having the same issue?
DoubleUp
Well-known member
Have to agree with Bow on this one. Just doesn't make sense that this problem wouldn't be uniform across the board if the reasons listed by Cat were valid.
I know it isn't the mount as my older Apex XD50A has the same mount and I've made one click vertical adjustment in over a year. Now whether the mounts are mounted correctly only the individual user is responsible, so that is a variable that is a possibility. However a good number of these issues are involving experienced shooters who know how to mount a scope correctly. Therefore we can't believe for them that incorrect mounting is the case.
Just this week, I missed what should have been a chip shot on a coyote at 150 yds. Reviewing the video in slow motion showed the coyote started moving forward just as the shot broke. I didn't see it in real time, but it was discernable in slow motion. Crazy thing is he ran to 300 yds. and stopped to look back and that shot knocked him flat. It was a much harder shot on a smaller target.
I would like to blame the miss on the coyote not being where the heat signature showed him to be, and in one sense he wasn't since he moved just as I shot. But I was able to see the move in slow motion and didn't catch it in real time. Is there enough delay in processing time to make a difference? Had he moved even farther than the slow motion showed because of this delay? I don't know, but I've made some running shots that I just don't see would be possible if the thermal delay was some type of problem.
I know it isn't the mount as my older Apex XD50A has the same mount and I've made one click vertical adjustment in over a year. Now whether the mounts are mounted correctly only the individual user is responsible, so that is a variable that is a possibility. However a good number of these issues are involving experienced shooters who know how to mount a scope correctly. Therefore we can't believe for them that incorrect mounting is the case.
Just this week, I missed what should have been a chip shot on a coyote at 150 yds. Reviewing the video in slow motion showed the coyote started moving forward just as the shot broke. I didn't see it in real time, but it was discernable in slow motion. Crazy thing is he ran to 300 yds. and stopped to look back and that shot knocked him flat. It was a much harder shot on a smaller target.
I would like to blame the miss on the coyote not being where the heat signature showed him to be, and in one sense he wasn't since he moved just as I shot. But I was able to see the move in slow motion and didn't catch it in real time. Is there enough delay in processing time to make a difference? Had he moved even farther than the slow motion showed because of this delay? I don't know, but I've made some running shots that I just don't see would be possible if the thermal delay was some type of problem.