Originally Posted By: TripleDeuce660Originally Posted By: MGYSGTI take it, the rifle is not bedded. Bed it into a stiff stock (wood or fiber) and then see.
Yeah, get a real stock and bed it. All the plastic savage stocks I have ever handled are flexible garbage.
I would of agreed, but a buddy and I between us have 5 12 fv's and they are all 5 shot half moa rifles with hand loads.
I put a 4-12 Redfield Revolution on and the gun is still the same .75 ish gun.
I am going to try 55 bt's and 34 to 35 grains of Varget next and see what happens.
I have no plans to get rid of the rifle as it is 3/4 moa as is...
I'm not buying into the stock Savage stocks won't shoot lingo. My stock Savage 12 fv's shoot as well if not better than my Rems including the Swift I bedded and have put 350 loads through while load developing.
Originally Posted By: varminter .223I have a couple 26" barreled Savage 12 fv's that really like 60 Nosler bt's over 34 grains of Varget. I have been working with a model 10 Predator of the same caliber that I picked up on a good deal last week. It has a rouuuuuggghhhh bore apparently and averages about .750" 3 shot groups [occasionally 5 shot]with the same load. It copper fouls something fierce and tends to string to the left up to an inch and once out to 1.5". [stock contact with bags to far forward] I tried it on the 12fv stock which fits beautifully with the slightly bigger barrel channel. It shot a .5" group and then back to .750" again.I put the original stock back on and then the first 3 shot group came back closer to .5" then back out to .750" at worst. I have been keeping my bags back almost to the barrel nut because I lose free float if the bags contact to far forward on the forearm. I think if I eliminate stock contact it is a sub moa rifle with good groups closer to .5" and loosers groups closer to .75" and 1" at the very worst. With all of this said I am wondering if the shorter barrel might like a 55 bt's or more powder [34 is a max load] given the speed lose in the 4" shorter barrel. I also wonder if the rough bore is just never gonna shoot better. I really like this rifle and want to use it but I really want .5 moa since I have several other rifle that will hold that. What do you guys think?
I should add that the tang area and around the sides and rear of the action appear to be free floated. I have been cleaning to bear bore about every 25 rounds hoping to burnish the tooling marks out shooting against a clean bore and it take 3 shots to get back to dirty poi. It seems loosening the stock and reseating against the lug and then tightening to 35 in lbs. seems to bring the group back together for a group or 2 as well.
There is a lot to try and digest here but here we go. I will start at the beginning of your post and work down.
Did you do a load work up for this rifle? To think that the same load will work in another you may just be chasing your tail. Just because a rifle shoots one group .5" and the next .75" does not mean anything other than it averages .625". Half moa rifles shoot some below .5" and some above .5" and only average .5".
What makes you think the barrel is rough? It just may not be broke in yet. Some USP or JB's will help smooth up the bore. A lot of copper fouling just tells me that the barrel needs to be burnished properly. Some factory barrels need quite a bit of cleaning and polishing before they settle down and shoot well. I purchased 2 Rem700 SPS Varmints at the same time. One was in 223 rem the other 22-250. The 22-250 bore was broke in and shiny after just 20 rounds of shoot 1 and clean. After load work up it shoots sub half moa. The 223 took 200 rounds - 20 rounds shoot 1 clean and then shoot 10 and clean ( after cleaning polished with JB's )for the next 180 before the barrel settled down. It now shoots around half moa consistently.
Your comment about the stock has me confused. If the stock is an accustock you will not have the stock flex you are talking about as evidenced by the fact the accuracy remained the same when changing stocks. Accustock's are pretty stiff and the one I have on a 16 WW does not flex whether rested on bags or shot from a bipod.
A shorter barrel will not change anything if the barrel is rough in my opinion and shorter/lighter bullets do not make a difference either unless the twist is too slow. Shorter barrels are a little stiffer and can be more accurate in some cases but not all. The fix for making up for lost velocity in a shorter barrel is to just move to a faster powder.
I would just work on getting the barrel broke in properly first and then do a load work up specific for this rifle. You may be able to just get away with a load tweak with the one your are using now but in the long run a full load work up would be worth the effort IMO.
I also read a post that commented on David Tubb's FF and they were concerned with throat wear. I have used FF on quite a few factory barrels and have seen no difference in throat wear from a FF broke in barrel and a barrel broke in with a conventional process. The polishing compound he uses is measured in microns and does not harm the bore. The majority of throat wear/erosion is from heat and pressure and will occur the entire life of the barrel.
I say the bore is rough because it copper fouls something fiecre, especially in one of the grooves up against the adjoining land. There is copper build up down inside the recessed crown on the inside wall of the recess. It is very evident just above the crown in the recess inline with that one groove/land junction. I don't recall seeing this before on a rifle. I have been shooting about 20 and then cleaning with sweets or wipe out. I am thinking about some jb's.
I tried 55 bt's tonight with 35, 34 and 33.5 Varget. It would string horizontally back and forth sometimes up to two inches with all loads but occasionally it would stop, shoot a couple together then take off again.
I would not worry about shooting groups until you get the copper issue sorted out.
Horizontal grouping can be shooters set up. Are you shooting free recoil? If so try using your offhand to hold forend with a medium grip to keep it from jumping. A good front bag like a Bulls Bag is helpful when shooting lighter weight rifles.
I have shot with both hands back by the pistol grip and holding the forearm down. I have shot many rifles on this bench these same ways and have never had these stringing issues. I am gonna put it back in the 12 fv stock with the 55s and see if it still strings. I may try some 60s too. Just feels like I'm wizzing up stream with this copper problem, not to mention the 2hr. cleaning job every 20 rounds.
This has to be frustrating. Scrub with JB's NE and then follow up with JB's BB. It may take awhile. If you get really adventurous try 3M polishing paper. Read about it in a NRA magazine 10ish years ago and tried it on a fouler I had and it worked unbelievably well but took a few hours to complete cycle with all of the different grits - microns.
Five inches high and left on the first shot after Jb's. It then settled back into around an inch. I looked in the bore from the muzzle after the first shot and holy cow! Copper city! I cleaned and and clean and clean to make darn sure all the bore paste was prior to shooting too. I called Savage and even though it is an 08 model they still had UPS come pick it up on their dime. We will see what happens.
Originally Posted By: varminter .223Five inches high and left on the first shot after Jb's. It then settled back into around an inch. I looked in the bore from the muzzle after the first shot and holy cow! Copper city! I cleaned and and clean and clean to make darn sure all the bore paste was prior to shooting too. I called Savage and even though it is an 08 model they still had UPS come pick it up on their dime. We will see what happens.
Did they ask for serial number? Maybe they already knew this was a problem with a certain production run.
Originally Posted By: coyotezapperOriginally Posted By: varminter .223Five inches high and left on the first shot after Jb's. It then settled back into around an inch. I looked in the bore from the muzzle after the first shot and holy cow! Copper city! I cleaned and and clean and clean to make darn sure all the bore paste was prior to shooting too. I called Savage and even though it is an 08 model they still had UPS come pick it up on their dime. We will see what happens.
Did they ask for serial number? Maybe they already knew this was a problem with a certain production run.
Yes they asked for the #. It was some chick on the line though that sounded like she wouldn't know the butt from the muzzle. I am curious as to what they will do for me since the warranty is only for original owner and for 1 year. However if it is obviously a bad barrel they may stand behind it. I also wonder if they have any barrels in the matching MO brush, not that it matters.
