Night vision options

Wabbit

Wabbit

New member
I seriously considering the purchase of a night vision set up but I want the best bang for my bucks since I can only have one. so if any of you could help steer me in the right direction I would appreciate it, her is what I'm trying to do.

1) Thermal or NV? I'm leaning more toward Thermal, pros and cons?
2) I have to bounce between rifles here so I want something easily changed from rifle to rifle. so perhaps a clip on?
3) will a clip-on allow you to scan then attach it to the rifle and shoot?

I've read about the ones that clip on ahead of your day scope but I'm not sure if it will do what I hope it will or if they are effective like dedicated scopes.
Any guidance would be appreciated.
 
Wabbit:

I feel your pain and was in your exact position. NV or Thermal, Flir or IR Defense. Well three weeks ago I went with both. I purchased a Night Optics D750 and a IR Defense MKii 35mm.

Prior to buying these two scopes I night hunted with a PVS14 monocular and a Flir TS24 monocular. Both my weapons had day scopes and white lights. My son and I scan with the flir and the pvs14. When something was inbound we would use the white light to ID and take the shot. In WI we can use NV and Thermal, however we cannot scan with any light source including an IR Illuminator, we can only use the light at point of kill so this means night vision is limited to moon lit nights.

I have the thermal on a DTech 17 remington and the NV scope on a Dtech Tach-20. Both setups have their pros and cons. The thermal is great and it definitely is better at detection, however in fog, rain, snow or high humidity nights the detection is severely reduced.

The NV scope is great when the moon is out or in situtations where there is alot of light halo from nearby cities or metropolitan areas. You have to pay real close attention when scanning with night vision because if a yote is standing in the shadow of a tree line you will never see him without the IR Illuminator which will allow you to see the reflection in his eyes. If you are living in a state where you can scan with an IR Illuminator a NV scope will work very well, however my experience with the illuminator on my gun and PVS14 leads me to believe coyotes can see the red glow, even though it is faint, of the IR and will hangup. We were out the other night and I detected a critter closing in on the call with my Flir and when I flipped on the IR to ID the coyote hung up and would not come any further. With the thermal this would not have happened.

When it comes to night hunting I feel hunting in total darkness produces better results over moonlit nights. In this case thermal will prevail over NV.

You might want to check out HTRN hightech rednecks youtube channel and his website as he has a couple of DVD showing live hunts with NV. The dvd's are very impressive and will give you a good idea when hunting with NV.

I cannot speak to your questions regarding a clip on device or swapping the scopes between guns. I chose to dedicate two of my AR platforms for night vision.

Sorry to ramble. Good luck with your seletion.
 
It seems to me that trying to scan with a scope and then trying to reattach it in the dark, before the critter moves and then trying to require the target would have its challenges.

I'm just starting myself and I don't have an unlimited budget, so my plan, I bought a digital night vision scope, the Photon XT, I just ordered it from Amazon and with discount coupons I got it for $308. My next purchase will be a thermal unit. Either a monocular or scope. I will scan with the thermal and once I acquire a target I plan to flip on the Photon on the rifle once the target is in range.
 
MCary, that's exactly what I'm doing. The thermal scanner (in my case Pulsar HD19A) is the game changer. I then use the Photon XT 4.6 to shoot. It has worked quite successfully, and the thermal allows you to see animals that you would have never known responded or were present. You will need a stronger IR light like a t-20 or 50 to use in place of the onboard IR on the Photon. Also IR feedback can be a problem, so picking your stands where bushes and trees are few will help. We mostly call logging roads and open fields. Experience will allow you to somewhat minimize the IR feedback by reducing the power or widening the IR focus. It won't be perfect, but is certainly workable.
 
Wabbit I think you could save yourself a lot of trouble, by just going direct to a thermal sight. I own and have used Gen3 NV and digital nv scopes. I had settled in on scanning with a FLIR PS32 and shooting with a Photon XT. That worked pretty well, but I sometimes struggled with changing from the FLIR to the Photon. I am now using an Apex XD50A thermal scope and I find it much more productive than any other system that I have used in the past. The scope will save zero settings from three different rifles and is not hard to change if you wish to do that. I leave mine on a dedicated rifle as I am too lazy to mess with it and I like building rifles.

The most economical way to get a good hunting solution would be to go with a HD19A to scan with and a Photon XT to shoot with. That would work for you for quite a while, but I think you would eventually want to migrate to a thermal scope on the rifle I now do general scanning with my PS32, but refine by looking through the rifle sight. A lot of folks are reluctant to scan with the rifle, but I'm not. I use a primos trigger stick and it's pretty comfortable to scan around with it. You can always try out a setup by renting something from a dealer like UNV if you have doubts about how it will work.
 
I was in your shoes last year and I ended up buying a ps32 just to scan with and just used a light for my shots. After seeing how well thermal was working I knew I needed to get a scope so this year I got myself an ir hunter mkII 35mm. I'm really glad I went that route. So for now id recommend that you get yourself a decent thermal monocular and start saving for a thermal scope, you'll be very happy you did.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleUpMCary, that's exactly what I'm doing. The thermal scanner (in my case Pulsar HD19A) is the game changer. I then use the Photon XT 4.6 to shoot. It has worked quite successfully, and the thermal allows you to see animals that you would have never known responded or were present. You will need a stronger IR light like a t-20 or 50 to use in place of the onboard IR on the Photon. Also IR feedback can be a problem, so picking your stands where bushes and trees are few will help. We mostly call logging roads and open fields. Experience will allow you to somewhat minimize the IR feedback by reducing the power or widening the IR focus. It won't be perfect, but is certainly workable.

DoubleUp has struck upon a very good point to remember when picking out and IR Illuminator. This video demonstrates how well a sight picture you can get if you get a Illuminator that focuses tight enough plus the photon will allow you to adjust the brighness and that also helps. This is done with my Pulsar N850 which allows brightness and contrast.

 
Wabbit,

There are all sorts of options available but in all it really depends upon your budget. Any of our HTRN Signature Series Scopes allow you to scan and shoot with a single NV unit. It takes some practice at first since you are doing this in the dark but it can be done very fast and very effectively. However, if you have the budget to purchase two NV units then two are always better than one. Kevin
 
The guys above have provided great information that mirrors what I have learned the last 2 years of trial & error and swapping out gear to get what I am now comfortable with. I now scan with a thermal and shoot with night vision. I'd love to shoot with 640 core thermal, but am hooked on shooting with NV. There are A LOT of hunting dogs here 24/7 between coon dogs, hog dogs, deer dogs and yard dogs. I have to make absolute 100% positive ID that what we're shooting is a coyote and not a dog that looks like just like a coyote in thermal, especially when the [beeep] hits the fan and you have 5 seconds to detect, aim and shoot. We had a scare last year with that and it wasn't fun. We had a hard charger within the first minute and it literally was biting at the call. My partner shoots with 640 thermal and had it in the scope quick. I was caught with my pants down and watched in my thermal instead of swinging my gun and getting NV on it. With my 320 thermal it just didn't look right and just as I said don't shoot yet, he shot. Whap, squeal, spin and it ran off straight to the farm house where I had talked to the farmer and saw his yard dog the day before. My initial instinct was [beeep] we just wounded the farmer's dog. We came back the next morning to figure it out and own up to it, but low and behold, it was a coyote. I hate admitting that story, but was a definite lesson learned and is why I haven't switched over to shooting with thermal yet.

My primary NV is a gen 3 D730 and I use the Sniper Hog Light w/IR module and LR55 head and dimmer switch tail cap. I haven't had any problem switching over from thermal to NV and picking up the target. With that IR light I can just click it on and get eye shine if needed or I can crank it up and dial down the head to a real tight beam for longer distance or tighter spaces if needed. It just takes some practice. My secondary NV is an Armasight Clip-on Mini gen3 Alpha w/ a Torch Pro for IR. The clip on works great, but if I had to pick one to keep it would be the D730 based on clarity. To compare the two...if stating the D730 is at 100% clarity, the clip-on would compare to that at 80%. A guy at work just got a Photon XT and we are hunting Thursday morning before work, so I'll be able to compare that as well.
 
Thanks guys I really appreciate the info. My hunting partner scans with thermal and shoots with NV too, but i will have to approach this in stages. I'm think I might be better off going with a thermal scanner first and work up to a NV scope later, would you agree? or could I go with a thermal clip on now ,then add a NV scope later and use the clip on as a thermal scanner?? it's all about options LOL
 
No doubt in my mind. The most valuable tool you can have besides the rifle is a thermal scanner. Once you have a good one, your whole hunting experience will change. You can scan with a thermal and shoot with lights pretty effectively till you can afford a night scope. Trouble is, any night vision equipment purchase is a step down a very slippery slope. You just can't quit once you've made that first step. I think I am going to have to join nv anonymous.
 
I agree with having NV for 100% ID. If no ranches within 5 miles of calling Thermal is used, or in an area that a known ranch does have a dog I am 100% using NV.

My partner shoots with 640 thermal and had it in the scope quick. I was caught with my pants down and watched in my thermal instead of swinging my gun and getting NV on it. With my 320 thermal it just didn't look right and just as I said don't shoot yet, he shot. Whap, squeal, spin and it ran off straight to the farm house where I had talked to the farmer and saw his yard dog the day before. My initial instinct was [beeep] we just wounded the farmer's dog. We came back the next morning to figure it out and own up to it, but low and behold, it was a coyote. I hate admitting that story, but was a definite lesson learned and is why I haven't switched over to shooting with thermal yet.
 
Yep, with Mr. P. on this.

Just a couple weeks ago I was calling and had three house dogs come in. They acted just like coyotes the way they moved when seen with thermal. Glad I had Gen3 NV to see what they really were.
 
If I only had a thermal I would be afraid to shoot most of the time. It would be hard to explain shooting a non target animal.
 
There are too many occasions where what you think is a coyote in a thermal is actually a dog or in one case, the head is a Clydesale looking over a hill. Coyotes were howling right behind him and if we had only had thermal we would have taken the shot. If you are hunting the wide open or hogs, might not be an issue. If you hunt scattered farm land it is an issue. That being said, I use clip ons in front of day scopes. I use a PVS 26 and a L3. I also have a Flir PS 32, LS 64 and just picked up the IR Patrol 300. I have the Flir RS64 and the IR Hunter also. I will wrong those two out this week and see which is better.
 
I hunt semi-wooded farm land in this area with a thermal scanner and I had id issues when I started and still do occasionally. I believe that experience has shown me some different attributes that help me identify coyote vs dog, deer, horse, or cow. They have a different thermal signature on them. I am thinking that the heavy fur coat masks some areas of their body so that their thermal appearance is different than a dog to me. There are some dogs that are pretty close with hair type to a coyote, but I am fortunate in that my neighbors don't own such. I hunt pretty close in to my farm and know my area and the other animal residents pretty well. I don't take any shot that I have any doubt about. As a result, I've never had an oops or a close call on a wrong animal. Caution rules in my world. Not saying it can't happen, but I have a high level of confidence in my thermal system. I think it is wise and sensible to use NV scope with thermal scanner as a starting system, but I do believe that experience will improve your id capability with thermal.
 
I never knew ID was a problem with thermals. That does make me think a little more.
R15, have you had any issues with the clip on in front of the day scope? I think like that option over a dedicated NV or Thermal scope.
 
found an interesting video comparing NV to Thermal. I realize it's only 50 yard but the clarity is great. Does Thermal become more distorted as the distance increases?

 
Didn't go with the clip ons but would think that would be your best bet. Kevin at HighTeckRedNeck has some very nice ones I have seen in his videos that clip on really smoothly and quickly. Was impressed.
 
Great video. Really does a good job of defining the differences. And yes, thermal gets fuzzy at distance, but it is a great technology for use within normal night ranges (
 
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