Humiliation - a desctructive form of discipline

Hyperwrx

Hyperwrx

New member
Recently in a discussion here we had an individual claim humiliating his son/daughter in front of their peers was a perfectly acceptable and beneficial form of punishment. Good parenting techniques take time and effort. A lazy parent finds humiliation a quick and effortless form of correcting the problem immediately. Oftentimes the parent is repeating a vicious circle of abuse he/she experienced as a child by his parent.

Here is an article where they explain it and a few other harmful disciplinary techniques. It needs to be posted as there is always people in need of education.

http://life.familyeducation.com/parenting/punishment/45305.html?page=1&detoured=1

Highlight of the article

Humiliation (and by this I mean those forms of old-fashioned punishment like making a child stand in a corner with a dunce cap on, pulling down his pants and spanking him in public, washing his mouth out with soap, or sending him to bed without dinner) wears down a child's self-image and self-respect.

Humiliation teaches a child that you don't value him. Respect your child—his body, his mind, and his ego. Never underestimate the damage that can be done by humiliating a child. One of the most common triggers of suicide in kids and teenagers is a humiliating experience. His sense of self is a very delicate flower, easily stomped.
 
The author of the article is probably an advocate of 'feels good' discipline. Our prisons are crowded with beneficiaries of this type of parental guidance. Discipline is supposed to make the child feel bad about the unwanted behaviour. No doubt, constant humiliation of a child(or anyone else) will not be productive. However, a parent has many opportunities daily to show their children love and respect. An occasional harsh old-school disciplinary action can be very pursuasive and help focus an unruly child.
 
HunterBear71- If you read the article you see the 'feels good' discipline is never referred to nor implied. Humiliating children works, no disputing that, but it works at the cost of their self-esteem. Anyone who knows me personally knows that I am a strict disciplinarian in the classroom. I deal with a rough population who see lazy parenting 24-7.

I can honestly tell you (this whole debate aside) I get better results disciplining them by not humiliating them in front of their peers.
 
In the efforts of discipline,,,,Always present the negatives in private, when possible,,,, and the positives in public...

That goes for parents with children or supervisors and subordinates....

People will, most of the time, not remember what you say, but they will almost always remember how you make them feel...

My grandfather taught me.... "Keep your words soft and sweet, you never know which ones you may have to eat..."
 
I do advocate what is working best for your situation. I have had this discipline debate quite a bit with my better half. We have now settled on a good cop/ bad cop routine. OT, your grandfather sounds like a very wise man.
 
Quote:Recently in a discussion here we had an individual claim humiliating his son/daughter in front of their peers was a perfectly acceptable and beneficial form of punishment. Good parenting techniques take time and effort. A lazy parent finds humiliation a quick and effortless form of correcting the problem immediately. Oftentimes the parent is repeating a vicious circle of abuse he/she experienced as a child by his parent.

Humiliation (and by this I mean those forms of old-fashioned punishment like making a child stand in a corner with a dunce cap on, pulling down his pants and spanking him in public.


You keep setting them up Scott, and I'll keep knocking them down. But really, you should at least try to stay out of the line of fire.

The claim was that embarrassment was an effective disciplinary tool, and originated from you saying you would intervene if I gave my grandson "a swat" on school grounds.

The "article" you linked and cited is an excerpt from a book, "The Complete Idiot's Guide to a Well-Behaved Child".

Without having read anymore than that short excerpt, I doubt I'll (deliberately) ever read any more of Erika Lutz's writing.

You carry on though, at least you are looking for books tailored specifically for you.


The Complete Idiot's Guide to a Well-Behaved Child

Ericka Lutz's award-winning short stories and personal essays have appeared in books, anthologies, and journals, and her articles, book reviews and advice columns have appeared nationally in magazines, newspapers, and on the Web. She is the author of seven non-fiction books including On the Go with Baby: A Stress-Free Guide to Getting Across Town or Around The World, The Complete Idiot's Guide to Stepparenting, and The Complete Idiot's Guide to a Looking Great for Teens (translated into Polish) and The Complete Idiot's Guide to Friendship for Teens (translated into Portuguese). Ericka is a two-time recipient of a fiction fellowship at the Virginia Center for Creative Arts. She has been interviewed on over 40 radio shows including "The Parent's Journal" on NPR and has been a featured guest on KRON-TV and KGO (ABC) in San Francisco.

Ericka loves travel (she's adventured in two dozen countries on three continents), gardening, and hiking in the woods with her dog Mollie. She works as Senior Editor for Literary Mama, the online literary magazine, where she also writes the column "Red Diaper Dharma." A woman of sporadic but intense enthusiasms, Ericka dabbles shallowly in yoga, trance dance, ice skating, meditation, sculpture, home repair, and stand-up comedy.

The child of a bohemian San Francisco family, Ericka earned a B.A. in Interdisciplinary Studies in Creative Arts at San Francisco State University. Ericka teaches fiction writing and public speaking for U.C. Berkeley Extension, and is the Writing Consultant for the Evening & Weekend MBA program at U.C. Berkeley. Since 1992, she's provided private coaching on writing and writing process as well as editorial services to writers and organizations.

All this, and she still writes, too.

Ericka has been married since 1989 to communication expert and writer, Bill Sonnenschein. They have one amazing fourteen-year-old daughter, Annie, who is developing her own sense of righteous indignation at the state of the world.
 
Before you knock my posts you need to reread them.

I stated that HUMILIATION is not a good disciplinary tool.

Quote:...choosing to discipline your grandson by striking him on school grounds not only humiliates him in front of his peers, which is detrimental to his self-esteem, but is not socially acceptable in a school setting....

I then put the idea to practice by stating that if I was to see you striking her son/daughter in a school setting I would pull you aside into a classroom to speak to you so as to not hurt YOUR self-esteem.

Quote:...unless the striking was over the top but pulling you aside (so you are not humiliated) and addressing it the problem to you...

The article also stated that HUMILIATION is a bad choice as a disciplinary tool and has been found to be a common trigger to kids committing suicide. I said that it tears down a kid's self-esteem and the article reiterated it. It's a no brainer that humiliating your child has detrimental results. Nobody needs to look up the studies that there are better forms of discipline than humiliation.

After I made the points dealing with humiliation you countered that the reason you would humiliate your child was to embarrass him.

According to thesaurus.com the definition of the word humiliate is embarrass or put down.
 
Embarrass 1:CONFUSE, DISCONCERT 2:to involve in financial difficulties 3: to cause to experience self conscious distress 4: HINDER, IMPEDE

humiliate: to injure the self respect of: MORTIFY

Mirriam Webster Dictionary (a thesaurus doesn't give definitions)

On a school campus I think I would intercede and privately speak to the parent telling them that on school grounds they can't do that. I have actually done this 5-6 years ago. Asked a woman to step inside my room and told her she can't hit her child on school grounds. In a school environment a parent who decided to discipline a child like that is not very sharp. Are there laws governing stuff like this on school grounds- not sure. Anyone, especially a teacher, could make this parents life quit problematic if they chose to. Believe me, many teachers go overboard on how children are treated.

You make my point Sir, not only of the usurpation of parental authority by schools, but the arrogant assumption of the validity of that usurpation by teachers even outside their classroom.

Even without knowing whether or not the law would be on your side, you would assume a greater authority than the parent because it was on school grounds, and you baldy state “Anyone, especially a teacher, could make this parents life quit problematic if they chose to. Believe me, many teachers go overboard on how children are treated.”

If you confronted me after I had given my grandson a swat, especially on school grounds, I'd immediately (with my grandson present) have you into the school administrator's office. I would make a BIG deal of it in front of my grandson as a lesson to HIM on where the proper authority lies when I'M present.


I would love that to happen because your grandson would get a first hand seat to watch a teacher plus a principal tell you to your face while you fumed and spit that choosing to discipline your grandson by striking him on school grounds not only humiliates him in front of his peers, which is detrimental to his self-esteem, but is not socially acceptable in a school setting. It would be an eye opening experience for you and your grandson.


You see, if I discipline my child on the playground (or any other public place), part of the reason for choosing to effect immediate punishment in public is to cause embarrassment. Embarrassment is a wonderful teacher and often eliminates the need for further discipline. But of course YOU feel differently so YOU get to make that choice for me. You after all are a member of the intellectual/educated effete and know better than the common folk.

Not quite the way you portray it huh?

But then you and your liberal friends know better than parents right? I mean Ms Lutz has a Bachelor degree in Creative Arts and has actually raised one whole daughter to the age of 14. She's obviously an expert to be cited.
 
Main Entry: humiliate
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: embarrass, put down
Synonyms: abase, abash, base, bemean, blister, break, bring down, bring low, cast down, chagrin, chasten, confound, confuse, conquer, crush*, cut down to size, debase, degrade, demean, denigrate, deny, depress, discomfit, discountenance, disgrace, dishonor, downplay, humble, lower, make a fool of, make ashamed, mortify, pan, play down, put out of countenance, put to shame, rip*, run down, shame, shoot down, slam*, smear, snub, squash, subdue, take down a peg, take down, tear down, vanquish, wither
Antonyms: build up, elevate, laud, praise

http://thesaurus.com/browse/humiliate


It doesn't take a college degree or vast experience raising children to know that using humiliation as a form of discipline is the wrong thing to do.

I can not convince you of this. It is apparent. I never thought I could. These conversations between you and I are a giant waste of time and effort.
 
Funny thing....

I just went to a school meeting where a state patrol officer came and talked about gangs, terrorism and a fair bit of behavior modification.

In short, one of the things he said we need more of was public humiliation. Granted, this was mostly talked about when someone screwed something up. Forcing admittance to the crime they did to their parents etc.

Not sure it quite applies. But, I do believe if discipline is the topic we need more of it. Generally speaking, it seems to be scarce in any form.
 
I am not sure forcing admittance to something and then humiliating a child is good, but I think we should teach kids early on to own up to mistakes, and work to fix those mistakes. I mean I know as an adult if somebody intentionally humiliated me I would lash out at them as well. Do into others as they do to you. I seen this book and I think they are as wrong as the idea we should stand kids up and humiliate them. I also don’t tend to read books that say “Idiot’s Guide” or to take those books seriously.
 
Just to clarify. The forced admittance was the humiliation for those kids. Owning up, explaining what they did, apologizing and working out how to make it right.

That was the "public humiliation" that he was talking about and one I'm all for.
 
kid-dunce-hat-743674.jpg


Humiliation in front of your peers fosters nothing but resentment and diminishes a child's self-esteem. There are other forms of discipline that curb poor behavior better without teaching a child that belittling others is an acceptable action.

Humiliating your son/daughter/student is a lazy parents/teachers solution to poor behavior. This is why is it not practiced any longer in school.
 
Originally Posted By: Hyperwrx
kid-dunce-hat-743674.jpg


Humiliation in front of your peers fosters nothing but resentment and diminishes a child's self-esteem. There are other forms of discipline that curb poor behavior better without teaching a child that belittling others is an acceptable action.

Humiliating your son/daughter/student is a lazy parents/teachers solution to poor behavior. This is why is it not practiced any longer in school.

What types of dicipline are now used?
 
Each district and school develops their own discipline plan. There are even some schools that allow their teachers to handle classroom discipline how they choose as long as it is deemed appropriate by administration. Luckily my school allows me to choose how I wish to discipline my own students.

Discipline plans are tweaked from year to year to tailor them to that years students. This year I have a very rough group of kids (particularly boys). They are very street smart, not exceptionally book smart and a traditional verbal scolding or sitting out a recess does not impact them as it would a typical kid. The rougher boys are on a '3 strike' policy. Get 3 strikes for anything ranging from being out of their seat to being off task, to bothering other kids while they are working results in a strike. A more grievous offense can result in an automatic 2 or 3 strikes (my digression). get 3 strikes and you stay after school in a time out room in the office for an hour. Last Friday the students were sitting quietly reading and I had a young man throw chewed gum across the room- 2 strikes and that got him after school.

Most kids do not need such drastic measures. A stern verbal warning is enough to straighten out a student (for that day at least). I also sometimes pull the student outside and have him call his parent on my phone and tell them that they are having to stay in during recess due to their misbehavior. After they tell their mom that, they usually get an earful from her and if needed I will speak with the parent briefly and the mom will apologize for the students behavior and inform me they will catch [beeep] when they get home.

Extreme situations are shuttled directly up to the principals office as per the district policy concerning certain things. Fighting, extreme disrespect to an adult, bullying, weapons violations (which includes fireworks and bullets and even sharpened instruments that were made to simulate weapons). The stories I could tell about extreme behavior would surprise the rowdiest PM reader I bet.
 
I'll agree to disagree. You speak of resentment and low self esteem. I'm talking about remorse. The esteem you build up by praise and not constant discipline.

What drives me NUTS is these "alternative" methods and there is no follow thru. Parent that start counting...but it takes them 30 seconds to get to 3. Ah, and don't forget all the threats of time outs.

I'll go by the statement I made earlier. I'll take any sort of discipline vs none.
 
I manage a truck maintenance shop and have to deal with lack of parenting every day. Public humiliation and then peer pressure is what i've found works best. If the gang doesn't know it, it doesn't matter.
 
A child will try to control his environment. From the time he's born he gets his way, cry, get fed/changed/entertained/etc. At a little older age he will try to control the adult by embarrassing the adult.

Crying or acting up in public is typical. You can temporarily give in and settle it later at home, but that lets him have his way. To you it's just temporary, to him it's a win over you. He has controlled you, and he will do it again.

When the punishment comes later on, the young child doesn't really connect the dots from the punishment to the misbehaviour.

My experience, having raised two boys and two girls to successful adulthood and now on grandchildren, is that there is a direct connection between butt and brain in small children. As they grow older the connection between ears and brain develops (more quickly in girls).

I am a firm believer in an immediate swat or two after an infraction to get the message to their brain while the infraction is proximate enough to the punishment for it to "take".

I think Scotts "pronouncements" from on high on child rearing, stated as though they were fact, are arrogant and insulting.

I find it especially disturbing that a teacher would think that he would have the right to interfere with my disciplining my child at any time.

"Diminishes self esteem?" Heck yes it diminishes his self esteem. As a parent or grandparent, why on earth would I want him to feel good about misbehaving?
 
Quote:I also sometimes pull the student outside and have him call his parent on my phone and tell them that they are having to stay in during recess due to their misbehavior. After they tell their mom that, they usually get an earful from her and if needed I will speak with the parent briefly and the mom will apologize for the students behavior and inform me they will catch [beeep] when they get home.
I learned that approach a long time ago and dealing with juveniles, it is one of the more effective, provided the parents are somewhat responsible....Having the kid call from the police station to get the parent to come to the station for the kid's pick up also has a positive effect on the parent...

It's kind of hard for the parent to blame the authority figure when the kid has already confessed his wrong doing...
 
Originally Posted By: nmleonA child will try to control his environment. From the time he's born he gets his way, cry, get fed/changed/entertained/etc. At a little older age he will try to control the adult by embarrassing the adult.

Crying or acting up in public is typical. You can temporarily give in and settle it later at home, but that lets him have his way. To you it's just temporary, to him it's a win over you. He has controlled you, and he will do it again.

When the punishment comes later on, the young child doesn't really connect the dots from the punishment to the misbehaviour.

My experience, having raised two boys and two girls to successful adulthood and now on grandchildren, is that there is a direct connection between butt and brain in small children. As they grow older the connection between ears and brain develops (more quickly in girls).

I am a firm believer in an immediate swat or two after an infraction to get the message to their brain while the infraction is proximate enough to the punishment for it to "take".

I think Scotts "pronouncements" from on high on child rearing, stated as though they were fact, are arrogant and insulting.

I find it especially disturbing that a teacher would think that he would have the right to interfere with my disciplining my child at any time.

"Diminishes self esteem?" Heck yes it diminishes his self esteem. As a parent or grandparent, why on earth would I want him to feel good about misbehaving?


I actually agree with this post completely.
 
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