BL C2 vs H335 vs. 748 in .223

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If you want to believe that 748 is a very different powder than H335, feel free.



Maybe so, but there's the kicker- I don't want it to be a "very different powder". I want it to be just a LITTLE different. And if "they will differ in burning rate slightly", then I'm fine with that- I'm only fine tuning here anyway and that IS a little different.

I'm concerned about H335/748 vs. BL-C2, not necessarily 335 vs 748. It's obvious by just looking at it that they're all pretty similar stuff. They look the same, feel the same, etc. I can buy that H335 and 748 are the same, but my experience says that BL-C2 and H335/748 shoot a LITTLE differently. Why would Hodgdon bother packaging BL-C2 and H335 separately if they were the same?

Finally, every reloading manual that I have calls for about 1 grain less of 748 than BL-C2. If they're exactly the same, then why is that?

Example, from Sierra:
748 27.2
BLC-(2) 28.5
http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223rembolt.pdf

Compare BL-C2 loads with 748 and H335 here:
.223 Loads
 
one thing to keep in mind especially with the ball powders we are talking about, besides the lot differences that we are talking about is, temp sensitivity I have seen it play havoc with my loads depending if its 85 degrees outside or 40, I have also seen where after I have been at the range for a while and my loads had been out of the truck in 40 degree temps they shot different than the first groups when the loads were warm from being inside the truck. so be mindful if the differences you could be seeing might be temp related because ball powders are even more prone to differences

I have really changed my thinking on loads, I used to always want speed with decent accuracy, now I want speed as well but I want accuracy in all weather conditions
 
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so be mindful if the differences you could be seeing might be temp related because ball powders are even more prone to differences

...but I want accuracy in all weather conditions



I hear ya, but when I did the 10 powder comparison, I loaded up 5 5-shot groups at a time. I fired 3 from something else to get warmed up and then I went P1a, P2a, P3a, P4a, P5a, P1b, P2b, and so on until I'd fired them all. Since this was a prairie dog gun, part of the criteria was how well the load performed in a warm barrel.

Speed is very low on my list, personally. I'm shooting for repeatable groups and "feel". Another thing I like to do is test the 1-shot performance of various loads. On a good day, I'll get all the rifles out and fire 1 shot each at 100 and 200 yards. Then I'll check and those and fire another shot from each. This seems to be a pretty good test of hunting performance- I want that first shot on target.
 
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".... The difference is just in various lots of the same powder. They just pour it into different cans.




Uh... Duuuuh.

That is a major stupid remark.

By that definition, ALL ball powder is the same - they just pour it in different cans depending on the burning rate /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

If it has a different burning rate, it is a different powder!

My current cans of W748, when loaded in a 223 gives the same velocity (within 10 fps) as W748 made in the 1980s.

It is NOT give even close to H335, and my current H335 is within 20 fps of my old cardboard cans of H335 that are marked $1.65, and date from the mid 70's.

W296, W680, H110, and AA1680 all look EXACTLY identical, and cannot be differentiated under a microscope... but they all have different burning rates.

That comment is about as stupid as saying that H-322 is the same powder as Benchmark - because they look exactly the same (but burn at a different speed). More Duuuuuuh.

... your guru, Johm barsness does not more than most will - he knows just enough BS to impress the kidlets that know nothing.

---

Powder is made in tons batches and graded for burning rate - most of it will be sold as "bulk" powder to ammunition companies with a ID number that is similar to canister powders (what we buy).

W750 is close to the burning rate or W748, but W750 is ALWAYS a little different in burning speed... sometimes faster and sometimes slower.

When a company buys 20,000 pounds of W750, they grade it themselves and adjust their loading machines - so when you buy factory ammo from year to year, the amount of powder in the case is different all the time.

But part of that batch of W750 will be graded for speed and given a "rate"... then it is blended with some of other batches of W750 that were faster or slower, the result is the same rate that they have defined as "Canister W748".

So NONE of the canister powders you buy are "as they were made" - they are all blended to make the canister version you buy, as close as possible to the one you bought twenty years ago - and they do a [beeep] good job.


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The wind died down right at sunset and I was able to try 26.0 gr of W748 behind the V-max 50 and it didn't make much difference over BL-C2. Still right at 1". That's not terrific, but it's acceptable for coyotes- now it's time to see how the V-max 50 gr-ers perform on fur. That is, after all, the reason I'm trying them.

I also got to try BL-C2, W748, H414, and W760 behind a 55 gr SP in my Ruger .22-250. It liked the BL-C2 considerably better, producing a 1" group, compared to 1 1/2" from H414 and W760 and nearly 2" from W748. 1" is about as good as I've ever seen this sporter barrel, stock triggered Ruger shoot. I'm still 1.5 gr shy of max, so we'll see what 0.5 gr on either side does for it. I bet a trigger would do more it than anything else!
 
one of the things I think this thread would be helpful with is, keeping a guy from buying 2 or more of these different powders, yeah I guess the lots vary, there may be ever so slight differences, however the differences are not worth going out and buying these different powders and expecting to get dramatic differences. its a waste of money.
 
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The wind died down right at sunset and I was able to try 26.0 gr of W748 behind the V-max 50 and it didn't make much difference over BL-C2. Still right at 1". That's not terrific, but it's acceptable for coyotes- now it's time to see how the V-max 50 gr-ers perform on fur. That is, after all, the reason I'm trying them.

I also got to try BL-C2, W748, H414, and W760 behind a 55 gr SP in my Ruger .22-250. It liked the BL-C2 considerably better, producing a 1" group, compared to 1 1/2" from H414 and W760 and nearly 2" from W748. 1" is about as good as I've ever seen this sporter barrel, stock triggered Ruger shoot. I'm still 1.5 gr shy of max, so we'll see what 0.5 gr on either side does for it. I bet a trigger would do more it than anything else!



My .223 load is a tad north of 27grns 748 under a 50grn Sierra with WSR primers. If yours is like mine- with 748- the more the better, and it likes it at about max. I had a dramatic improvement from 26.5 to where I am at now- groups shrunk by half. But bullets make a big diff. Same exact load but with 50grn Speer tnt's groups 3 times larger in my rifle.
 
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... buying these different powders and expecting to get dramatic differences. its a waste of money.



Yeah, except that I'll eventually find a use for the powder. It's useful having some variety on hand. And if they really prove to be that similar, then I won't have to work up a new load. In view of upcoming events, I don't mind stockpiling a few pounds either.

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I had a dramatic improvement from 26.5 to where I am at now- groups shrunk by half.



10-4. Will keep that in mind. Thanks.
 
Similar, yes. Same definitely not. The W748 and H335 both have coatings on them that affect the burn rate. The BLC2 does not.

I have a few 223s that definitely prefer one over the other and print different chrono readings. Overall, W748 is my favorite of the three in .223.

Barsness has a pretty high opinion of himself /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif but that is not the first thing that I've read where he used a little too much 'literary license'.
 
Life's too short to worry about a $20 or so lb of powder.

If nothing else needing different powder's give's us another reason to tell our wive's why we have to go to the gun shop again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

JMO
 
I have used both W748 and H335 and both are very greta powders for accuracy, as far as my experience with them is concerned.

I have heard it so many times that H335 is fickle with temp. changes. I do NOT believe it for a second unless maybe it has to do with max/fast loads. I have shot the same load in minus degree weather and 100 plus degree weather and accuracy has been fine and have had no other issues from it at all.

25.5 grains of H335 and 55 grain vmaxes has been lights out for me in my .223.
 
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Life's too short to worry about a $20 or so lb of powder. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

JMO




Definitely right on...

Think "Woofs" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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go to this site for more powder information. kwg

http://www.tacticoolproducts.com/powder.pdf



There are many of these powder rate charts around.

I remember the first one I came across back in the days before the flintlock ( /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ), I thought it was a blessing from God-da.

Then I looked it over and some discrepancies came up - hmmmmmm - OK, maybe it was a badd day for God-da.

Then I came across another one, and it didn't match the first one - hmmmmmm - OK, which one was the "real" one.

And then another one, and none of them match each other - Oh, they were close. They didn't list Bullseye as being slower than BlueDot or anything that far "off"... but there were lots of position changes that were two to five places off.

NEVER use one of these "burn rate charts" for loading decisions - they make nice wall decorations when hung upside down (so you can't read them /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

In this chart... they list BenchMark as being #86 and H-322 as #89 - no way in Hades is that possible - I have shot over 50 pounds of BenchMark, and 70 pounds of H-322, and any fool that shoots these powders knows that H-322 is about 3% faster than BM...

... same with W-748 and H-335. This chart lists W748 in position #92 and H-335 in position #96 - same "no way in Hades" thing... they are reversed in the wrong position on this chart, as are many others.

So much for Tacticool - they are Uncool! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


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I have heard it so many times that H335 is fickle with temp. changes. I do NOT believe it for a second unless maybe it has to do with max/fast loads. I have shot the same load in minus degree weather and 100 plus degree weather and accuracy has been fine and have had no other issues from it at all.




Carl, I have seen the changes first hand. The loads that I developed in 40-50 degree temps showed a little pressure signs on the primers. They were a little flattened, but nothing to get concerned about. No hard extractions, but slightly flattened primers. These very same loads when shot at 100-105 degrees were flattening the primers a LOT. I found that if the MTM boxes were kept in my cooler on ice, the results were much better. But as they sat out in the sun and heated up while I was shooting, there was a definite difference.

Were they "dangerous"? I don't think so. The changes weren't that great, in my opinion. But there was a definite difference.

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QUOTE-CatShooter: NEVER use one of these "burn rate charts" for loading decisions - they make nice wall decorations when hung upside down (so you can't read them /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif).



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif That's HILARIOUS. Shooter, can I have your permission to use that phrase in the future? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
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QUOTE-CatShooter: NEVER use one of these "burn rate charts" for loading decisions - they make nice wall decorations when hung upside down (so you can't read them /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif).



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif That's HILARIOUS. Shooter, can I have your permission to use that phrase in the future? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif



Sure...

... they look so, like, well, you know - so scientific - they impress the neighbor's kids!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I have also seen the swings with H335 loads that I worked with in the winter blew primers in the hot summer BUT Carl is right that its only with max loads that it causes dangerous pressures but that does not mean that its not happening with lighter loads. Chrono shows it.
 
26gr of 748 with a 55gr nolser in my CZ varmint works great, I dont really worry about velocity one I find a load that prints good.
 
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