shotgun loads

i'd love to hear about your results.

i've never heard of "Brilliat Pebbles" how does it compare in mallability to the HD and lead that we've been discussing? i'm guessing its similar to the HD/Heavy Shot that you prefer. i think thats the primary dispute that we're having now. i want a shot that is going to increase in diameter as it penetrates and you would prefer a shot that will not lose its structural integrity and therefore does not create the drag that lead does as it expands.
 
The Brilliant Pebbles are the shrapnel pellets from some of the early SDI interceptors. There was a company in Tennessee that manufactured them and had a few left over. We bought them at quarter per pellet. They are right at single O size and weigh 57% heavier than magnum lead. Early testing has given 100% patterns at some ridiculous ranges (not ready to release the specific info yet, because extraordinay claims require extrordinary evidence). The shot is very hard, much harder than steel, as evident by the perfect 12 holes we put in a 1/4" thick steel gong.

My argument is simply that at shotgun velocities. Even if the shotgun pellets deform, there is no significant increase in wound cavitation; either permanent or transient. Shotguns kill by putting pellets where they need to be. Generally if lead is soft enough to deform at shotgun impact velocities, then it is susceptible to setback deformation.
John
 
pcammo,
you attached a link the other day to a site of a respected company that tests shotgun loads. after reading the link to brassfetcher.com you gave us i decided to follow up with the company and this is the answer that they gave me when i asked for their recommendation for a coyote load.

"My recommendation would be to use #4 lead buckshot...."

I then followed up by asking why he recommended lead shot over HD:

"My recommendation there basically boils down to the way in which the two different types of materials 'fail' when they hit the target. Lead pellets are ... just that, but the HD pellets are typically composed of a mix of a heavy metal like tungsten powder and metals like copper powder and pressed together under tons of force. I've tested one particular type of Dead Coyote round, and a large percentage of the pellets broke into dust inside of the gelatin block. This was a bare gelatin block, with no bone involved. My suspicion (though I think your live fire testing in real Coyotes would greatly help to substantiate this), is that the lead pellets will deform (but stay in one piece) upon striking bone and will do more damage up front than would a pellet that breaks into powder upon hitting the target."

while his comments are not in agreement with my reasons for not using HD/heavy shot it does explain my experiences.

again, this company does not claim to have any real world coyote killing experience and judging by his comments i doubt that he hunts predators. this was a purely an unbiased opinion of the materials we are discussing.

sounds like someone needs to dissect their next kill to confirm the powdering of HD shot in an animal.
 
do you think its a recent phenomenon or do you think its an inherent characteristic of the HD/heavy shot pellets thats been exacerbated lately due to some QC problems?
 
HD does not break up and retains its integrity. HD is more malleable than the Environ-Metal mix. Dead Coyote on the other hand has a current ongoing problem. A couple of guys have been mailing me about troubles with the Dead Coyote shells breaking up inside coyotes and even foxes. I suspected Environ-Metal had made a change in the temper or composition of the mix as they are prone to do. I mentioned to this member about Derbyacresbob breaking Dead Coyote into dust with a pair of pliers as he showed us in the big shotgun sticky thread in the Firearms Forum. This gentleman then used a pair of pennies between his thumb and forefinger to crush some Dead Coyote T-shot. He has been in direct communication with Environ-Metal and this is what they had to say about it…

"We think we had a batch of pellets go out without the thermal processing that imparts their strength. Our quality system requires us to impact test samples from each batch after heat treatment, and they are much harder than the sample you described. They can still be crushed with channel locks (that's part of the design of the pellet), but not by hand between pennies.
We are re-testing all the pellets in-house now, and changing a point in the operation just before loading where we will re-check for strength."

Here is a recent thread in which we discussed some of Environ-Metal's unexpected changes and sudden twist...


http://www.predatormastersforums.com/for...639#Post1535639
 
I bought both HD and Hevi-shot over a 3 year period and cannot recall any of them working as good as I expected in real life. They do pattern better and I love them for turkeys but I don't shoot at the head of coyotes in practice and with as tight as they pattern I would doubt very many of the kills I did get with the tungsten based shot were meant to hit there. I'm sure there were some pellets that got to the head after the second or third follow up shot. I even recall one arizona coyote that took 4 of the dead coyote before I ended up shooting him at 10 yards with him suffering with a 5th 00 buck. killed 4 that day and 3 in shotgun range and only had one die with just one shot. Was still a believer back then but looking back now kinda wonder why. Should have listened to the old dad who says just stick with 4 buck. I just thought I new better and kept with HD and Hevi-shot.
 
i decided to ask one more follow up question to the guys at brassfetcher.com:

Q: which shot material, in your opinion, would be the most lethal on an animal or human?

A: "Given the same diameter of shot pellet, be it made out of steel, lead
or sintered metal powder, I would opt for lead (plated with copper or
not).

Picture the situation of a pellet/bullet/any other object penetrating
a fluid medium, like the body of an animal. This is exactly the same
in concept as when you hold your hand out of the window of a moving
car (I still do it too
smile.gif
) ... when you keep your palm facing the
ground, the force of the wind pushing your hand back is very small.
Increase the surface area/jaggedness of your hand by turning your palm
toward the front of the car - and the wind pushes your hand towards
the rear of the car. The 'push' that you experience is the same
'push' that gives a bullet or pellet its effectiveness.

While the projectile(s) is traveling through the body of a coyote, it
is encountering the same resistance because body tissues are fluid,
just like the air going over your car.

The trick is to find the right weight/diameter/shape of pellet that
will have enough penetration to penetrate through all of the vital
organs from the deepest reasonable shotline. Any deeper penetration
and you haven't thrown down as much as you could have. Any
penetration shallow of the vital organs and you run the risk of not
stopping the target in a timely fashion."


We all have our opinions but this guy is considered an expert in the field and has the experience to back up his opinion. After my personal experiences and the expert opinion that this gentleman added to the conversation there really isnt any more that could be said to convince me that lead shot isnt the most lethally effective material.

I know that this is more of a simple confirmation for me and that this thread will in no way convince the religiously faithful HD/heavy shot crowd.
 
nightcaller couldnt be more wrong...HD is exremely effective on coyotes..shot one at 55 yards the other night...but i shot a goose at 110 yards with hevi-shot dead coyote..and it wasnt crippled, it was stone dead...if you have the right choke tube hevi-shot dead coyote will kill coyotes from 70-80 yards
 
Yotehunter3,
WOW! to this point i think everyone has had very logical opinions and then you jump on here with your "magic pellet" post. GC, and Pcammo had reasonable arguments which i can appreciate and respect but anyone shooting at animals at 110 yds with shotgun pellets has ZERO credibility!!!

anyone trying to decide which shot they plan to use has had good info from both sides on this issue and then you throw out some BS comment!
 
Originally Posted By: yotehunter3nightcaller couldnt be more wrong...HD is exremely effective on coyotes..shot one at 55 yards the other night...but i shot a goose at 110 yards with hevi-shot dead coyote..and it wasnt crippled, it was stone dead...if you have the right choke tube hevi-shot dead coyote will kill coyotes from 70-80 yards
I cal BS too. How do you know it was 110 yards? Did you lazer range find it before you shot? There is no shotgun shell on the market or will ever be on the market that will kill a goose at 110 yards unless it is a slug.
 
No one said that HD or runaway coyote by hevi-shot was useless we just said we feel there are better products out there. Heck I have killed coyotes with the tungsten bassed stuff at upto 68 yards. I think that was my best with one shot kill with that stuff. It works but 68 yards was a poorly judged distance on my part and hope to do better at just shooting 60 yards max with broadside targets only in the future. Any thing 4 chill or bigger works at 30 and less. All I think I, nightcaller, and others are saying is in the medium to long ranges we are seeing some type of bullet failure we don't like, more often than we should. We never said everytime. Not all shotgun coyotes at those ranges go down everytime no matter what pellet and choke used. Just the nature of the shotgun. Second shots are fun in their own way but 3rds 4ths or even 5ths kinda upset me. I just like shooting 2 and 1/4 ounces of lead pellets not 1 and 5/8 and having the dog drop more consistently. More energy per pellet at any normal predator range, same number of pellets, better energy transfer or power delivered, and plenty of penetration to hit the vitals. All of this make for the product I now choose.
 
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