shotgun loads

No one is saying anything against #4 Buck. I have killed many critters with it and still use it. My best single stand, was made with a load of 39 pellets of super hard #4 Buck at 1390fps from my BP-10. It is a very good 45 yard load. over 90 seconds I was able to take five coy-dogs and feral dogs with two additional blood trails in the snow. My point is that, in most cases, shotguns kill by perforation and not by the type of kinetic kill produced by high velocity rife cartridges.
John
 
nightcaller, having to shoot a couple of coyotes 3 times is not much of a test for shotgun loads on coyotes. No matter how good a shotgun load is, at times you will need to keep shooting them. Even with the best coyote loads there are many reasons for having to use more than one shot.

The heavier than lead loads pattern better than lead and penetrate much deeper than lead and they do work great on coyotes.
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=777351#Post777351
Look on page 9 of GC sticky pattern thread at the top of the Firearms forum. Deeper penetration with more pellets hitting the target is what the heavier than lead loads will give you "IF" you hit the coyote with the center of the pattern.

The number 4 buckshot smashed up pellets I dug out of the catalogs were not as big around as a 00 buckshot pellet.I would never use 00 buckshot on coyotes because they don't have enough pellets in them. But a number 4 buckshot pellet that only goes half way through a coyote is not deadlier than a 00 buckshot pellet that goes all the way through a coyote.

The hard heavier than lead loads also break bones in a coyote much better than the lead loads do, if you have shot very many coyotes with these loads it is pretty obvious.

It doesn't matter if you are shooting lead or heavier than lead if you hit the coyotes with the edge of the pattern.

When people say they have shot a coyote at 40 yards or less with Dead Coyote or Rem HD BB or T shot and it just ran off. I think they have just barley hit the coyote with the edge of the pattern.

I believe too many coyote hunters are shooting too tight of chokes trying to extend the range of their shotguns.If the pattern is real tight at 50 to 60 yards that means it will be very difficult to center that pattern on a coyote at 35 yards and less because the pattern is so small.
 
nightcaller,
Respectfully, again shotguns do not kill at longer ranges by energy transfer like a high velocity centerfire rifle does. They are simply two different critters. The velocity just isn't there for a hydrostic energy transfer. Shotguns kill with the same principle that a round ball muzzleloader does, or a flat point hardcast handgun bullet, above all else the projectile MUST penetrate through and disrupt vital tissue. In the case of the shotgun because the pellets are so small compared to a .45 - .50 caliber muzzleloader or .41 - .45 caliber handgun there must be a large number of those pellets to penetrate and wreck the interior vital tissue. A couple of small pellet wound tracks that only go halfway through just won’t get the work done like a dozen of the same wound tracks that tear and shred completely through the vitals.

Soft lead is an inferior pellet, it will not pattern well and it will not penetrate to disrupt the vital tissue of the animal as well as a hard pellet. Shotgun hunters have known this for years that is why promotional loads are cheaper; they use cheaper wads and powders, no buffering, and most of all very cheap soft lead pellets that may not be uniform shape. These loads do not pattern as well and do not kill as well at longer ranges. The better loads have better components with harder buffered shot that holds a pattern together and can deliver multiple pellet strikes that penetrate very deeply to tear things up inside completely through.

You speak of “mushroomed pellets” as soon as that expansion begins penetration is limited. I once called a bobcat to 65 yards and it hung up right there on a creek bank and wouldn’t budge. I had my 3” 12 gauge shotgun stoked with a premium No. Four Buck load that patterned very well. I was tempted but decided against taking the long poke on the cat. Long story shorter, it didn’t work out and later when I got back to my truck I took a 20 ounce plastic water bottle and stepped off 65 long steps and placed that bottle on a little bank and shot it just to see “what if.” I hit the bottle with three of the Four Buck pellets, two of which passed through like you would expect. However, one was lying in the bottom of the bottle, flattened out like a washer and didn’t even make it out the other side! That pellet struck near the bottom where the edge is thicker and curved upward and is harder. I was absolutely amazed at that and really glad I did not take the shot at the cat knowing the penetration could have been that limited. Some of us have been doing this stuff for quite a while, just saying there have been more than a few stray cats and possum shot to base our experience on.

BTW, You didn't answer my question about what sort of patterns you were getting with the HD loads?
 
Originally Posted By: J23in close rang with coyote hunting which load should i use, slugs or #4? and by #4 i mean the one with 4 metal pellets.

Here we can't use slugs unless it is shotgun deer season. It's illegal to carry them outside of deer season. I use Remmington #4 buck, 3" shells with 41 pellets. Pattern your gun so you know it's maximum range. I think the shot size and choke tube is more important than brand of shot. buy a couple of different boxes and test them to see which works better in your gun. I can tell you what works in my gun, that doesn't mean it will do the same in yours.
 
AlsBitch.jpg


I dont believe she cares one way or another bout this argument.
Get em in close for a shotgun...shoot em twice if you need to.
smile.gif
 
someone noted shotguns kill by damage to internal organs. well....thats part of it but we've all damaged vital organs and watched the animal live for a significant amount of time. how many times have hunters watched wounded animals run with blood spewing from a fatal wound at or near the heart? in order to get the kind kills that i'm after (i'm too lazy to want to track thats why i dont bow hunt)there needs to be a disruption in the nervous system.

i was watching a coyote hunting video a couple of years ago and noticed something interesting. on a frontal shot, from a rifle, you could visibly see the coyotes rib cage expand like a balloon inflating as the bullet entered and expended energy. i want my shotgun to create this phenomenon on a smaller scale but with multiple projectiles.

i know, i know, someone has already made the point that a shotgun pellet does not kill the same way that a rifle bullet does. well, as i have posted previously, why would i shoot a FMJ bullet out of rimfire rifle when i can use an expanding one? HD shot performs a lot like a FMJ and does not create the damage that a lead bullet does. (better throw an IMO in here)

guys,
i completely understand your arguments in favor of the HD loads. these arguments are the same ones that i used for a few years. none of them are new or ground breaking. i always thought that the guys that were stuck on 4buck were behind the times or using an inferior shot to save a few bucks.

at this point, and considering the arguments by other posts (which were extremely well put and informational), it would be impossible to change opinions. nobody was going to change mine when i thought the HD loads were "THE" shot to use. this post is not to change anyones opinion but to give a little insight for the guys that havent decided which shot they are going to use.
 
Last edited:
Would have to agree with nightcaller from what I have experienced. I thought with all the marketing hype and the patterns I was shooting with the hevi-shot and HD stuff it was a superior product until I watched coyote after coyote run off or need multiple follow up shots. Made me really rethink the load. I mean how could a load patterning so well and with so much more velocity and penetration be having so many more runoffs (not DRT) than the old lead I used for years. Don't multiple pellet strikes account for the kills on the animal like it says in the manuels for shotshell reloads? Took me over a year to come up with what I feel is the answer. It comes down to an understanding of the physics principle of energy vs power. Often times with ballistics the common value looked at is only energy as a function of mass and squared velocity. Probably more important is power. Power is a function of how much work is actually done over a specific time. Energy lacks real time value because it got squared and I don't have any squared units on my watch when I am out hunting (my wrist watch reads in seconds not seconds squared). Lets look at 50 yards as an example. HD(or hevi-shot) T shot has 27.8 ft-lbs and 4 buck from winchester has 37.8 ft-lbs of energy when it gets to the coyote (1350 and 1100 fps muzzle velocity). Its what happens when I strikes that changes due to the metallic properties. The HD stuff because it is not malleable, does not mushroom, and is a penetrations monster in comparison will probably penetrate 6-7 inches. The lead on the other hand is likely to penetrate 3-5 inches. Now both loads have 54 pellets in 3.5 inch form remember but the 4 buck has 20% greater surface area. Now 3 to 5 inches may not go all the way thru a coyote but that is plenty deep to destroy vital organs on any coyote I have every seen killed or shot myself. Taking 6.5 inches for HD and 4 inches as average for #4 buck and estimating that it takes 50% longer for the HD to come to a stop because it is traveling over twice as far we now have some very general numbers we can use in our calculations of power. If we use 0.2 seconds for the #4 buck and 0.3 seconds for the HD for time (I know it takes a lot less in real life but for the concept here the values are ok because the time value is not squared). 27.8/0.3= 92.7 ft-lbs per second that is the power for each pellet of T sized HD or hevi-shot. For the #4 buck we have 37.8/0.2= 189 ft-lbs per second for each pellet strike. Now all this assumes too that the HD didn't go thru the coyote cause if it did some of that 92.7 power per pellet got wasted on whatever it hit behind the coyote. Each pellet of #4 buck has more than double the power that the HD T's have. Even with half the pattern you still just edge out the HD stuff in power. So from an understanding of power in ballistics I was better able to understand why I still was having all those still running and not DRT dogs with the penetrating rounds. I did have many DRT's with the HD and Hevi-shot but those must have been head shots. Been a lot better off since I understood this concept and changed back to lead. Works the same in your rifle bullets just like nightcaller was saying. Only penetrate the amount you need too to kill. Overpenetrating kills what is behind the coyote and releases your energy over a longer time period decreasing its felt power to the coyote. Hope this helps with what you were trying to say nightcaller cause I agreed with most everything you said.
 
Every now and then, this idea of power comes up in the shooting industry. Normally it is associated with big bore handguns or punching skull plates. And I must admit that it has some merit in this venue. I am afraid it does not extend to shotgun pellets however. I will show you the correct math behind it a little later (if anyone is actually interested). Beyond that, having taken sixty some deer and plenty of dog size critters with a shotgun. It boils down to getting enough pellets in or through the boiler room that counts. If you find a load that patterns well, that uses shot large enough to penetrate the vitals, then you are good to go. The magic behind the HD pellets is that they penetrate good and pattern good. Sometimes they pattern better than folks can shoot, and this can lead to problems.
John
 
You cannot confuse a low velocity shotgun load at 1,300 fps with a rifle bullet traveling 3,000+ fps, they just are not the same kind of projectile and do not act the same way in game. Half dozen shotgun pellets in the lungs at 1,100 fps do not kill the animal the same as a high speed .243 bullet striking at 3,200+ fps. It is apples and oranges in the same way as muzzleloader rounds balls, hardcast handguns, or a broadhead tipped arrow for that matter. The broadhead has little shocking power or energy transfer and kills by slicing vital organs and creating massive hemorrhage and blood loss. You could use a fat blunt rubber tipped arrow and shoot coyote and up size critters in the rib cage and never transfer enough energy to kill them with a normal bow weight. Slice a sharp cutting broadhead through those ribcages and game lies over pretty quick. Shotgun pellets, hardcast handgun bullets and muzzleloader round ball or conical must retain their integrity to ensure adequate and full penetration and the ability to bust bone when it is encountered. Penetration is king in this venue and a dense pattern does the massive damage needed to shred vital organs.

Think about turkey hunters... Turkey hunters shoot for the neck and head to break bone and penetrate the vertebrae and skull of the gobbler. They use a dense pattern of hard plated lead or tungsten for this job and center this dense core pattern where it'll do the most good on the bone structures to affect an instant kill. What they don't do is body shoot a gobbler trying to get partial penetration into the body cavity and transfer energy to shock the bird into submission. Any experienced turkey hunter knows head/neck shot gobblers drop on the spot. Body shot gobblers run like Hades and most often are never recovered. They may die eventually from their wounds but you’ll probably never lay your hands on them. Penetration is king and all that matters is getting enough hard pellets in there busting bone and penetrating through to cause consistently quick kills.
 
in my opinion you're confusing penetration with power. We are not using shotguns to try to create a wound channel that causes bleeding. (We've all seen how long it can take for a coyote that is hit well to bleed out.)

I agree with the concept that 204ar has presented; the longer it takes to disperse the energy the less leathal the force.

If i jump off of a 50 ft bridge and land on concreate the power produced is dispersed immediatly. If i jump off of a bridge into water the water obsorbes the power over a significantly longer time period. same power, different time period to disperse that same power. Which tells us that the more penetration the longer it takes to disperse energy. i'll let him elaborate further on his point if he wants.

when hunting we want some penetration in order to disperse the power to organs on not on the protective layers of fur, skin, and ribs. However, overpenetration wastes available power on those protective layers out the opposite side. The key is to use the proper shot size and material to deliver the power to the vital areas of the animal.

As lead enters the body it is the same size as the HD/heavy shot. however, the lead produces a wound channel that is expanding in diameter that creates more destruction the deaper it penetrates until it transfers all power. HD/heavy shot forms a wound channel that is consistant and unchanging until it's power is gone. the wound channel of a lead bullet is going to be a cone shape while the wound channel of HD/heavy shot is going to look like a straw.

if you're shooting at a coyote broadside.

Skin| Ribs | vitals | Ribs | Skin

_|_____|_____|_____|___|______
_____________________________

vs

||||||||||||____
|||||||____/
_____/
_____
|||||\____
||||||||||\____

(give me some crayons and i'll finish this up right!)

My cone is obviously not to scale considering the tools that i'm working with but it helps me explain my position.

at this point in the discussion its a choice between which wound channel you are trying to create. i'll take the cone shape. You guys can continue with your straw shaped channels.
 
I shoot at coyotes at all angles if they are 40 yards or less away. When they are facing me or running straight away from me I want the pellets to penetrate as far as possible. A shotgun load with almost twice as many pellets that penetrates much deeper is what I want for the not so perfect shots. Plus the harder heavier shot does break bones much better than lead does.
 
If your wanting to perforate the coyote with lots of small 0.2 inch holes and chase the coyotes while waiting for them to bleed out sounds like HD would get you your excercise tracking. Me personnally I got sick of wasting extra bullets and time trying to convince myself that pattern and penetration were better. Now I am back to watching the energy go to good use killing immidiately not poking little holes in the dog and waiting for them to bleed out while the dogs adrenaline kicks in. Watch bowmania if you want to watch coyotes bleed to death. They track some of those things 2+ miles. If you want to see lots of dead on impact coyotes with a shotgun watch Les Johnson. He did use dead coyote for part of one season if I remember and now he is back to using the standard hornady #4 buck. Watch how many of his shotgun coyotes get lifted off their feet with the potential energy getting converted to power. I just like them dead when I hit them. If rifle data doesn't have the same physics in your mind as shotguns then maybe looking at pistols will help becasue they shoot almost identical velocities. Would you rather get hit with a FMJ 9mm doing 1000 fps or a cast lead 44 cal doing 900 fps with the ability to mushroom and increase its wound channel. FMJ same size hole front to back. 44 cal 20% bigger hole to start and gains size all the way thru while disrupting tissue to a much greater extent. Brassfetcher website was shot too close up to tell much with those pellets. At 7 feet/yards any size shot would kill a coyote/human. The site did show that the #4 buck wound channel was almost twice the size but the test was not done at 40 or 50 yards where we need the data. As for my 2 cents on running away or facing shots at the fringes of shotgun range It doesn't matter what shot your shooting at those angles you better be ready for a couple follow ups. That is just a hard shot for a scattergun to make everytime. 1/3 the area to hit and extra penetration needed. Just pray that the california condor stays in arizona and california so I can keep using my DRT loads. I load my own buffered lead 3.5 inchers and can pull great patterns at 60 yards.
 
pcammo,
i enjoy taking in relevant information to form/adjust my opinion. The link you provided was to a test that was conducted at just over 3 YARDS!?! and is not a practical representation of either of our opinions. at that range we can both be sufficiently confident in our choice.
 
Here is why it is relevant:
1- The impact velocities are higher than would be expected at 40 yards. Any magical terminal phenomenon would be amplified. Unless you are making the argument that the shot is traveling too fast to see the phenomenon.

2- A round ball is a round ball is a round ball. The only difference is the impact velocity as addressed above. There is no significant spin or any other stabilization mechanism that would improve down range lethality.

Here is what it means:
1- The cavitation track (look at the area beyond the upset caused by the cavitation of the wad and buffer) shown no improvement for lead over tungsten. Zoom in on the pictures and most of the lead deformation is setback related anyway.

2- There is no real difference in the depth of penetration for the Environ-Metal Product and lead. Given that one was T and the other was #4 Buck. The benefit shown by the tungsten shot was that it was still nice and round meaning that it should put more pellets on target.

3-The en-mass surface area of the T shot was 1.174" and that for the 4 Buck was around 1.01". The tungsten T shot will actually disrupt more area than the 4 Buck from the two loads tested.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: 204ARIf your wanting to perforate the coyote with lots of small 0.2 inch holes and chase the coyotes while waiting for them to bleed out sounds like HD would get you your excercise tracking.

Me personnally I got sick of wasting extra bullets and time trying to convince myself that pattern and penetration were better. Now I am back to...

I really don't understand, the first quoted section would indicate you have no experience with this, yet the second quote seems as if you want to say you do have experience with the HD loads. Those seem to be conflicting statements.
 
pcammo,
you really didnt examine this test for your comparison.

i'm just going to address your point #3 because the results are too inconsistant to prove either of our arguments.

this test was done using 2 3/4" lead shells vs 3" HD shells. the en-mass surface area was larger using the HD shot because there were about twice as many pellets.

please use comparable loads if you want to make a comparison.

i enjoy these conversations but it's annoying when you want to compare drastically different loads that appear to favor your opinion when in fact favor my opinion more than yours. e.g., it took half as many pellets to produce an en-mass surface area that was only .164" smaller than the HD.
 
If you read the last sentence it actually says "from the two loads tested". No intent at deception. It is not needed, the observation is sound.
John
 
the "observation" in your link above is lacking for this comparison.

in the 2 3/4" lead shot shell there were only 27 total pellets. of which 23 were recovered and 4 penetrated through the gel.

for the 3" HD load it does not say how many total pellets were fired but there were 46 pellets retrieved from the 2nd shot.

i'm actually really impressed at the damage those 27 lead pellets did in comparison to the 46 HD pellets. i think that the penetration at longer ranges would favor the HD while the damage done would favor the lead.

i do not think you were trying to deceive anyone with these results and i appreciate your bringing them to our attention. i would love to see a similar test done on the 2 loads that i have tried. 3.5" Rem HD T shot and 3.5" winchester #4 buck at a longer distance (30-40yds) the 3yds in those tests was not sufficient for this discussion.
 
I still maintain it is sufficient to show the lack of cavitation upon deceleration of shotgun pellets at shotgun velocities. Nothing but narrow wound channels beyond the upset caused by the wad and other filler materials is observed. On several of the 4 Buck pellets you can see the tell-tell marks of setback. It is really hard to get a good pattern when the shot is deformed right out of the barrel.

It turns out that there is not much of a density difference between the soft lead in that load and the current production Enviro-Metal product. The Federal soft lead in this load is 11.22g/cc and the current production Hevi-Shot T is close to 11.5g/cc for reference the Remington HD is 12.06g/cc the 99.4% tungsten Brilliant Pebbles shot runs 19.2g/cc. So, in this case any improvement in down range performance would likely be attributed to a better pattern from nice round shot in flight.

I still have four hundred pounds of virgin gelatin at the shop. As soon as we re-open in July I will set up the test as you describe. I have been dying to try some of this Brilliant Pebbles shot anyway.
John
 
Back
Top