You can have your national forest back

Originally Posted By: Josh PearsonThank you for posting this bluealtered. I agree with what your saying and I'm very surprised to see the backlash from other members on this thread. I will be contacting my representatives!

I guess some of it could be construed as backlash; I'd like to think of it as "differing opinions". Everyone has that "God given right".
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At least in this country anyway.
 
Quote:If the government feels that they have to govern to the lowest common denominator, we are all in trouble. I think, if you will research some of the various companies, agencies and departments, whether private or public have a huge book of 'Policies & Procedures' somewhere...For the most part, everyone of them was inspired by the 'lowest common denominator' screw up, or group of screw ups, so I guess we are all in trouble...

Take this website for example...We have a censor program to attempt to prevent curse words so that is can be 'family' oriented for young children, but we still have some that will substitute various symbols to get around the process...We have rules in the ToS that are necessary because various members come on thinking that they have the 'freedom' to say whatever they choose to other members...So let's not go there...

As to the National Parks and access, I'm a frequent visitor the the Canaveral National Sea Shore and Wildlife Area...An area approximately 10 miles by 40 miles along the Atlantic Ocean...There are some great trails and roads that are accessible by vehicle (only on road permitted) and areas that are foot traffic only...The area is staffed by a cadre of Conservation Officers and Rangers that maintain and monitor visitors to the point of running radar along the roadways that have somewhat restrictive speed limits...

I'm also disabled due to a couple of health issues that limit my ability to walk very far on level ground, much less going uphill, so there are areas that I cannot enjoy..No Handicap Permits for off roading of which I'm aware here...

In my home state of Missouri, there are many of the same restrictions, with the exception that I can obtain a special handicap permit for off road access by State Conservation District only...

We are always going to have those that fail to respect their environment, just as we have those that fail to respect local and state established laws and while I'm not in favor of a "Police State", we are seriously lacking in our education of our citizens at an early age for the last several decades for the need to follow established rules and exercising common courtesy in this country....The lack of community support for activities such as the Scouting program is part of it..While I was raised 'in family' to 'leave no sign' of my passing, the Boy Scouts further reinforced that concept...

Primarily, I'm in favor of opening, or keeping open as much public land as possible, but I also see the need to pay for monitoring in general the activities of those that visit it...Even then, there will be those that want to gripe about being monitored, or will work to find ways around established regulation...
 
Originally Posted By: OldTurtleQuote:If the government feels that they have to govern to the lowest common denominator, we are all in trouble. I think, if you will research some of the various companies, agencies and departments, whether private or public have a huge book of 'Policies & Procedures' somewhere...For the most part, everyone of them was inspired by the 'lowest common denominator' screw up, or group of screw ups, so I guess we are all in trouble...

Take this website for example...We have a censor program to attempt to prevent curse words so that is can be 'family' oriented for young children, but we still have some that will substitute various symbols to get around the process...We have rules in the ToS that are necessary because various members come on thinking that they have the 'freedom' to say whatever they choose to other members...So let's not go there...

As to the National Parks and access, I'm a frequent visitor the the Canaveral National Sea Shore and Wildlife Area...An area approximately 10 miles by 40 miles along the Atlantic Ocean...There are some great trails and roads that are accessible by vehicle (only on road permitted) and areas that are foot traffic only...The area is staffed by a cadre of Conservation Officers and Rangers that maintain and monitor visitors to the point of running radar along the roadways that have somewhat restrictive speed limits...

I'm also disabled due to a couple of health issues that limit my ability to walk very far on level ground, much less going uphill, so there are areas that I cannot enjoy..No Handicap Permits for off roading of which I'm aware here...

In my home state of Missouri, there are many of the same restrictions, with the exception that I can obtain a special handicap permit for off road access by State Conservation District only...

We are always going to have those that fail to respect their environment, just as we have those that fail to respect local and state established laws and while I'm not in favor of a "Police State", we are seriously lacking in our education of our citizens at an early age for the last several decades for the need to follow established rules and exercising common courtesy in this country....The lack of community support for activities such as the Scouting program is part of it..While I was raised 'in family' to 'leave no sign' of my passing, the Boy Scouts further reinforced that concept...

Primarily, I'm in favor of opening, or keeping open as much public land as possible, but I also see the need to pay for monitoring in general the activities of those that visit it...Even then, there will be those that want to gripe about being monitored, or will work to find ways around established regulation...

....And here we are today with the Government thinking we are all morons and unable to control ourselves. Then the Government steps in and "takes control". Might be fine with some of you but not with me.

This website is private and the Federal Forests are public. Big difference in how they can and should be managed. I'm here as a guest but when I am on public land it is in part mine and yours and all US citizens. It is not government land it is our land. Just as the taxes that the government takes in is not the governments money it is our money.


Tim
 
The problem with the I pay for it so it's mine (ours the public) to do as I please mentality is that the irresponsible law breakers also pay into it so shouldn't they get to do as they please weather right out not they still pay too don't they
 
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I also pay for the public roadway but I expect every other driver to respect that little line in the middle that keeps me and them from meeting at high speed. Public does not mean there are no rules. Right of access to public land is the issue. There are plenty of designated wilderness areas where people can walk in or take horses. The full range of options is out there just as on the public roadway. We have to deal with people as they are not as we wish they would be. The initial post was about access now the thread is about a small minority of people ruining it for a majority. This is life.
 
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There is a difference between legal use and illegal activity.

If public land does not belong to the citizenry, who does it belong too?

If everyone doesn't have the right to free use, who does? Only those who pay such as timber and mining? Only those who have connections? Only those who are able bodied?

I know it can be hard to believe but some use the roads to get farther away from the crowds. Not all are just lazy road hunters. Some of us actually drive in and then walk in even farther.

Tim
 
The idea that the National Forests were created so the public could do whatever they wanted on them is a fallacy. They were created to serve the public..."Where conflicting interests must be reconciled, the question shall always be answered from the standpoint of the greatest good of the greatest number in the long run." James Wilson, Sec. of Agriculture, 1905 addressing Gifford Pinchot. They were created as a reserve of timber, minerals, and land that would serve the public in the face of ever increasing private land ownership with natural resources and recreation. That doesn't mean you can just do whatever you want. What about firewood cutting, Christmas tree cutting, making your own ATV trails, etc, etc? All of these are regulated just like vehicle traffic. They are publicly held lands managed by professionals (usually) who make the decisions about what serves the greatest number. Whether or not you agree with their decisions, that is the way the system was set up over 100 years ago. Too many people associate being able drive on every road in the woods with access to the land. Too many people don't know the history and the original purpose the National Forests (much different than National Parks OldTurtle) were created. In fact there was an element when the N.F.'s were created that didn't want any human intrusion at all, recreational or industrial.
 
I have sat here and reread the three pages here. Yes my reaction to the first five or so posts was very much uncalled for, for that i owe you an apology. I do apologize here.

Yes there are stupid people trashing and tearing up our public lands. The best facts i have been able to come up with over the years seem to show that it's around 1% or less. That said while everyone can tell us or show us these problems, i very seldom if ever hear anybody offer to help change it. The only thing i see is the forest service/blm able to use this as a reason to lock it up which is what they have done in most places. As for the right to drive "everywhere" in the forest, i haven't said that at any time. My logging contracts did include that the those roads were for the public to use after the contract was complete and signed off on. Whether the contracts in your area or state are/were written that way doesn't change how it was done here at that time.

Whether or not the closed roads in the national forests, deserts, or grasslands are reopend really has very little meaning to me as someone who can only walk so far no matter what. If all the roads in the world were open i can only still walk about a mile and thats that. For that i am very thankfull.

The whole purpose of this post was to simply let the members here know that there is a bill in the house to bring back their right to acces to public land, and yes that right extends to driving on established roads, before you jump up waving your arms the word is established. Not cross country or anywhere else. If the roads in your area weren't made for public use, then whats the problem?

O.T i realize i may have pushed the boundries of language to far, i will amend that as soon as this post is done. To anybody i may have affended here i offer my apology.

In closing let me say this, myself and the other older members here have seen some of the freedoms we took for granted growing up be lost to you who are younger. You probably don't miss them because you never knew them.

The truth is that you were born with the right to travel as you please simply by being born here or becoming a citzen. That means yes you can go where you want, ... if you do it in a responsible manner. That doesn't mean do anything you want. With that right also comes the responsibility to care for and look after the land so that others may enjoy it as well. That means you must also and always take responsibility for making sure the stupid among us don't ruin it for everybody else. Here i thought this would be a simple post, boy was i wrong.

 
Tim I agree there is a BIG difference between legal and illegal. And as citizens especially this day in age with everyone not only sue happy but some mentally unstable all we can do is report and get the authorities involved which brings us back to square one. Govt. Involvement. The cheapest way for us the public (who pay for LE) is to try to prevent as much of the illegal activity as possible by detering trash shooters not limit access. While it's not the best it is the cheapest and if your like me you hate to give out more of your hard earned money to fund full time patrols or road repairs or clean up and let's face it we have familys and other obligations that keep us from going and cleaning after or chasing of the law breakers.
 
Originally Posted By: DTOMThere is a difference between legal use and illegal activity.

If public land does not belong to the citizenry, who does it belong too?

If everyone doesn't have the right to free use, who does? Only those who pay such as timber and mining? Only those who have connections? Only those who are able bodied?

I know it can be hard to believe but some use the roads to get farther away from the crowds. Not all are just lazy road hunters. Some of us actually drive in and then walk in even farther.

Tim



Very good point. The devil is in the details, and as I look at my own contributions to this thread, and that of others, it's got me thinking that there are probably many "details" that many of us (including myself) have not considered or haven't been presented. I've made some pretty pointed comments here that in hindsight may not have been completely prudent. So have others. The issue is not as "cut and dry" as I had treated it. Many folks have brought up excellent arguments on both sides of the topic, and I for one appreciate hearing different perspectives. I suppose that in some way that is what these forums are for; to discuss important issues in a respectful and meaningful way. Not everyone will agree all the time on any one topic, but it's important to hear everybody's position so we all can become better educated before "jumping in with both feet".

Thanks to all for their contributions.
 
How about this fact? I know it is a fact sense many years ago the lady next door use to brag about it. She is a devout envior-maniac who is a life member of the sierra club and green piece. She will tell all in ear shot that she worked like a dog so that both her children could go to college to get a degree in forestry. They have over 20 plus years in service with the Forest Service. They have both risen up the ladder to a point where they make some (how many I do not know) decisions regarding access to Forest Service land. I have lived in
Washington State for 72 years and can tell you first hand they have had an effect and others like them in BLM and other management agencies. It used to be hi ranger how was your day! Now it’s a blue and red light the big gun on my hip and oh yes the big badge and what do you think you are doing up here? Yes there are nuts and criminals and god knows what taking refuge out in our forests, but we are not all criminals looking to break the law and trash THEIR forest. I have had a sweet little thing hand on gun badge shining in the sun ask me what I was doing in HER forest shooting HER deer during general hunting season. The next year there is a gate where there use to be access. I can guarantee you any place and I mean any place there is a concentration of Elk on Forest Service land there is a gate. If there is logging there is left a gate to make sure there is no access. There are areas 20 miles deep that have been logged and now there is no access. Walk in big boy and pack out 600 pounds of elk meat on your back guarantee you won’t be back next year? Does the rescores need to be managed yes they do, but not by the Sierra club
Or other Greener groups that want it left all to them. I have been denied access to hunting areas by logging company equipment so their employees and friends could have a good hunt on Forest Service land. When I attempted to contact the Forest Service about this practice I ran into the sierra club college manager types that said basically sorry not going to help you with this. Packing metal in both shoulders and my spine my ability to enjoy the outdoors I grew up in has pretty much been trashed. Do I still hunt? Can I enjoy getting far enough away from a main road to have some piece if mind? Not very often and if I do happen to find such a place there will be a gate next year. Follow the run around to get a permit and you will probably give it up. What ya gona do? Me I’m on the way out in a few short years so I sure am not going to get it fixed. Oh yes I know for $39.95 the Forest Service will send you a six pack DVD so you can enjoy OUR forest that way you don’t need to drive on OUR roads. Yes I have probably offended some of you people but I’ve walked in the tacks that are no longer accessible and I don’t give a dam anymore.
 
Guys you are all making good points, there are places that need more protection, but changing the whole road system in the nation from an open road unless posted closed to a closed road unless posted open system is simply pure enviromental extreme at it's worse.

To touch on mikes point i can say that here the old school foresters, the ones who actually walked through the woods and learned what was best for nature "hands on" were given the choice of early retirement or being forced out, the reason was that the "new forest service" was coming in and they wouldn't fit. This was on a memo that one of our locals kept after being forced out.

Everybody knows i love a good fight, but this is to important to fight over. This is about your freedom of choice, if you want the choice of going somewhere or not, fight for it. If you like the roads closed, then fight for that. Don't just sit back and complain about the way things are, do something about it. Americans fought so we would still have the right to choose and it's our job to fight so our children or grandchildren have the same right to choose.
 
Originally Posted By: Timberbeast7With little exception the roads on federal land were built for logging and mineral extraction in the first place, not public access...that's what hiking trails were built for, literally. Dollars from logging and mining paid for the construction and maintenance of these roads and now with the absence of these activities (which I don't agree with) there is no money to maintain the infrastructure. So keeping people from driving on and destroying the roads is the only answer. Just because the road is there doesn't mean you have a right to drive on it. You can still hike on all of the closed roads, why do you feel like you need to drive everywhere?

I used to like to take the family out to a lookout tower in a fairly remote area, idiots go out in the spring in their rock crawlers and gun their motors in muddy spots where water is running through the dirt road,thereby creating four foot deep ruts with high centers that no normal 4 wheel drive can get through.

Roads can be "used" in such a way that they can continue to be used as roads. The hard "use" side of this equation doesn't have a clue that muddy forestry roads have nothing to do with being there to destroy. Those are the same exact pigs that tear up remote roads getting into a remote spot to camp, and leave more trash than can be believed could be possible by one group of off road "wilderness" users.

Go into some of the remote areas of desolation wilderness hiking only area right here by where I live, you'd be hard pressed to tell anyone has been there, they carry out the trash from what they use, going on the premise that if they carry it in they can carry it out. Yet our rugged and intrepid 4 wheelers think by god that land and the roads in were put there for them to trash, too much trouble to bick up the bud light cans and take them back out.

Open up desolation wilderness and four wheelers would have it thoroughly trashed in a year, first season. There are plenty of jeep roads around here, lots of them such as the Rubicon which I've been on. They don't need the keys to what hasn't already been trashed.

Funny and true conversations with friends who have serious rock crawlers and trucks. I was asking (silly me) what was wrong with a few of the serious jeep roads, they said they are all trashed out from too many people going through them, they've gotten too hard to go on with a decent truck,it takes serious rock crawlers.

So, in a roundabout way you can get guys who think that forests should be for everyone to "use" (or abuse) to admit that four wheelers trash roads.
 
Originally Posted By: iron mikeHow about this fact? I know it is a fact sense many years ago the lady next door use to brag about it. She is a devout envior-maniac who is a life member of the sierra club and green piece. She will tell all in ear shot that she worked like a dog so that both her children could go to college to get a degree in forestry. They have over 20 plus years in service with the Forest Service. They have both risen up the ladder to a point where they make some (how many I do not know) decisions regarding access to Forest Service land. I have lived in
Washington State for 72 years and can tell you first hand they have had an effect and others like them in BLM and other management agencies. It used to be hi ranger how was your day! Now it’s a blue and red light the big gun on my hip and oh yes the big badge and what do you think you are doing up here? Yes there are nuts and criminals and god knows what taking refuge out in our forests, but we are not all criminals looking to break the law and trash THEIR forest. I have had a sweet little thing hand on gun badge shining in the sun ask me what I was doing in HER forest shooting HER deer during general hunting season. The next year there is a gate where there use to be access. I can guarantee you any place and I mean any place there is a concentration of Elk on Forest Service land there is a gate. If there is logging there is left a gate to make sure there is no access. There are areas 20 miles deep that have been logged and now there is no access. Walk in big boy and pack out 600 pounds of elk meat on your back guarantee you won’t be back next year? Does the rescores need to be managed yes they do, but not by the Sierra club
Or other Greener groups that want it left all to them. I have been denied access to hunting areas by logging company equipment so their employees and friends could have a good hunt on Forest Service land. When I attempted to contact the Forest Service about this practice I ran into the sierra club college manager types that said basically sorry not going to help you with this. Packing metal in both shoulders and my spine my ability to enjoy the outdoors I grew up in has pretty much been trashed. Do I still hunt? Can I enjoy getting far enough away from a main road to have some piece if mind? Not very often and if I do happen to find such a place there will be a gate next year. Follow the run around to get a permit and you will probably give it up. What ya gona do? Me I’m on the way out in a few short years so I sure am not going to get it fixed. Oh yes I know for $39.95 the Forest Service will send you a six pack DVD so you can enjoy OUR forest that way you don’t need to drive on OUR roads. Yes I have probably offended some of you people but I’ve walked in the tacks that are no longer accessible and I don’t give a dam anymore.



You want in on a little trick for getting great deer?

I haven't found the forestry road yet that doesn't have other ways into the road that's blocked right off the main road. Get a forestry map that shows all the dirt and 4 wheel jeep roads and figure out how to get back around. Sure it's no joke going 40 miles on rough dirt roads, but you won't see anyone else and neither will the deer.

I had a ranger asking me how I got in to an area it had taken me two hours to get to even though there was a gate to the main road half a mile and five minutes away. I showed him the road I used and asked him if he could let me back through the gate rather than have to go back around. He told me sure and gave me the combination to the lock, told me to be sure and lock it, there's cattle in here. Another time the ranger made me go back around, highly annoyed that's when I figured out another way to get through those gates, but that's another story.
 
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Originally Posted By: iron mikeHow about this fact? I know it is a fact sense many years ago the lady next door use to brag about it. She is a devout envior-maniac who is a life member of the sierra club and green piece. She will tell all in ear shot that she worked like a dog so that both her children could go to college to get a degree in forestry. They have over 20 plus years in service with the Forest Service. They have both risen up the ladder to a point where they make some (how many I do not know) decisions regarding access to Forest Service land. I have lived in
Washington State for 72 years and can tell you first hand they have had an effect and others like them in BLM and other management agencies. It used to be hi ranger how was your day! Now it’s a blue and red light the big gun on my hip and oh yes the big badge and what do you think you are doing up here? Yes there are nuts and criminals and god knows what taking refuge out in our forests, but we are not all criminals looking to break the law and trash THEIR forest. I have had a sweet little thing hand on gun badge shining in the sun ask me what I was doing in HER forest shooting HER deer during general hunting season. The next year there is a gate where there use to be access. I can guarantee you any place and I mean any place there is a concentration of Elk on Forest Service land there is a gate. If there is logging there is left a gate to make sure there is no access. There are areas 20 miles deep that have been logged and now there is no access. Walk in big boy and pack out 600 pounds of elk meat on your back guarantee you won’t be back next year? Does the rescores need to be managed yes they do, but not by the Sierra club
Or other Greener groups that want it left all to them. I have been denied access to hunting areas by logging company equipment so their employees and friends could have a good hunt on Forest Service land. When I attempted to contact the Forest Service about this practice I ran into the sierra club college manager types that said basically sorry not going to help you with this. Packing metal in both shoulders and my spine my ability to enjoy the outdoors I grew up in has pretty much been trashed. Do I still hunt? Can I enjoy getting far enough away from a main road to have some piece if mind? Not very often and if I do happen to find such a place there will be a gate next year. Follow the run around to get a permit and you will probably give it up. What ya gona do? Me I’m on the way out in a few short years so I sure am not going to get it fixed. Oh yes I know for $39.95 the Forest Service will send you a six pack DVD so you can enjoy OUR forest that way you don’t need to drive on OUR roads. Yes I have probably offended some of you people but I’ve walked in the tacks that are no longer accessible and I don’t give a dam anymore.



I've spent a lot of time in the woods in harder to get to places, and I've run into a lot of wardens. With the exception of a couple most were really nice guys, they shared tips for getting better fish or deer, I shared tips with them.

I suspect that half of what type of person a warden is has to do with the person encountering them. Now there's a profound thought huh?

How is a warden going to treat the guy that's belligerently telling them that he knows his rights, these are his forest lands, and he can do or doesn't have to do whatever? Yeah, he's going to be a jerk alright.
 

[/quote]

I've spent a lot of time in the woods in harder to get to places, and I've run into a lot of wardens. With the exception of a couple most were really nice guys, they shared tips for getting better fish or deer, I shared tips with them.

I suspect that half of what type of person a warden is has to do with the person encountering them. Now there's a profound thought huh?

How is a warden going to treat the guy that's belligerently telling them that he knows his rights, these are his forest lands, and he can do or doesn't have to do whatever? Yeah, he's going to be a jerk alright.[/quote]

Whether the warden (or the person the warden is checking) is a jerk or not may be irrelevant. For every 1 person that is contacted by a warden/ranger, there are 1000 that aren't. Wardens, rangers, and the like have huge juristictional areas and simply cannot be everywhere at once. Further, it would take millions of public dollars to pay for hiring an adequate number of enforcement officers to patrol all the nations Public Lands.
 
so if some people making a mess on public lands justifies closing the roads,does the fact that some people shoot other people with guns mean we should ban all guns?
 
Originally Posted By: J.Markso if some people making a mess on public lands justifies closing the roads,does the fact that some people shoot other people with guns mean we should ban all guns?

Well, I can see where you're going with your analogy, but I think what is being debated here is whether or not people have a RIGHT to use the roads to access public lands. Some people say yes, some people say no (including myself). My position (and a few others on this thread) is that everybody has a RIGHT to access the land, just not by motor vehicle. The roads were originally created for reasons other than public access, and the public using those roads is a PRIVILEGE. . .not a RIGHT. That PRIVILEGE is apparently going to be taken away; the reason(s) is irrelevant since the roads were not created or maintained for the public anyway. We've just become accustom to using them and in turn feel entitled that they are OUR roads.

So to follow your statement to it's logical conclustion and come full circle; owning a gun is not a PRIVILEGE. It's our Constitutional RIGHT to own a gun. So your analogy sticks if you believe that using roads on Public Land is a Constitutional RIGHT; otherwise it's comparing apples to oranges.
 
Some counties would close even more roads than the forest service.

I am not for closing roads. To get away from people you simply need 4x4 and the balls to use it. 18-24 inch rock garden next to 3,000 foot cliffs for 30 miles keeps most people out. No blown up tv's out there. Not everyone is fit enough or has the time to back pack in. They should not be locked out of their favorite spot by a bunch of tree huggers who live in in Frisco and go hiking in Yosemite once a year. I'm a day hiker but really can't handle lugging a pack at 10,000 feet. Some of the dirt roads I go on are 30+ miles going from 4,000 to 12,000 feet. I would never get to see those places ever again. Many of those roads then terminate at the wilderness boundary and I hike in from there another 5 or more miles each way for fishing and hunting. Closing the road would take a 10 mile day hike with 1,000 feet vert gain and turn it into a week back packing trip and 8,000 + vertical. We already have vast wilderness areas all over the west where we used to be able to access them. Many of these you can't even go in on a bicycle or even a horse! How much more are we going to close? Why preserve it if no one can ever see it except a scientist with a helicopter?
 
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His point still stands in part though, you want to close areas because of a few bad actors. And a road is a road. Whether its for logging or mining, a passenger vehicle is surely easier on the road surface too. And if its public, and we pay for it, we should be able to use it in a responsible manner. Just my opinion here. But more public access on public lands seems like its a good thing for us all.
 
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