Winchester Model 70 (Pre-64) The Riflemans Rifle

AZPredatorSlayer

AZPredatorSlayer

New member
I found one for sale and decided to wait. I did some homework since I knew next to nothing about them since they are before my time.

I found that they are the "Riflemans Rifle" because of the quailty work. They don't make em like they used too, Not to mention that are a collectable too. Values range from $1200 on up.

Went back and bought it right away. All orginal Model 70 Featherweight in 243 with a Weaver K4 Scope with sling.

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took it out to the range with some cheap winchester ammo and its a shooter. Can't wait to see what my handloads will shoot.

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100yrds. Cant wait to get a yote with it.
 
Very nice! Great rifle.

I have personally put between 15,000 and 20,000 rounds through a pre-64 Mod. 70 National Match rifle that I purchased used. I might add, that I dry-fired this rifle at least an equal number of "rounds".

Don't know the round count on the rifle prior to my purchase, but don't think it had too many since it had the Win. factory barrel. It is on it's third barrel since I purchased it and the barrel is only part I have changed and the action is smooth as glass!

I'm sure you will enjoy your new toy for many trouble free years to come.

Regards,
hm
 
Anytime you can find a nice unaltered Pre-64 model 70, you've found a good deal. Sadly, many that you find have been butchered by adding recoil pads, removing sights, refinishing/replacing stocks, etc. which all detract from the original value.

During their hey-day, their primary competition was the rather clunky Rem 721/722 series of rifles which proved to be very accurate but sported very plain-Jane stocks and stamped trigger guards. With the better metal work coupled with good Winchester advertising, the "Rifleman's Rifle" legend was born...

As for prices, they seem to vary considerably from one area to another where I have seen them in gun shops. In the mountain states, they seem to command a premium for nice unaltered examples in the $1200+ range that you mentioned. Where I live you can quite frequently find nice unaltered ones in excellent condition in the $800+ range.

A very nice find on your part..!!

-BCB
 
The collector value of the pre-64 Model 70s is undeniable to say the least. As far as the old model 70 being super accurate out of the box, well not so much. Most needed a bit of tuning and load development to get to their potential. It was one of the easiest to get shooting great.

"They don't make em like they used too", Well No. Now they are better than they used to be. The current production Model 70 Winchesters made in the FN plant in Columbia, S.C., are the best ever made. This takes nothing away from the fine example you have shown here. Anyone would be proud to own it.

Take a look at the new ones:
http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/hunting/2009/05/model-70-reborn
 
Originally Posted By: BusterGreat find! Here's one of my favorite rifles. 1957 .300 H&H Mag

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Now the 300 H&H is a beauty...great round to boot.

Hoggy
 
Later I found out later that they had Three Model 70 Pre 64's FW's from My Brother in Law. The 243 I had bought a 308 and a 270. (If I would have known that I would have purchased all three.)

I went back to get the remaining two however someone had purchased the 270. I puchased the 308. It has some wear marks from riding around in the saddle hoster. Missing the front sight hood cover and one of the sling swivels. Barrel is 95% no rust however it has wear marks and the bore is excellent all original. This makes a good pair a Pre 64's. I will have to look for the missing parts to complete the gun.

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Took both of them too the range today and here is a 100yrd target with both groups. 243 bullseye and the 308 high to the right.

Good groups for factory ammo. I will have to work up some handloads for both of them.

243N308at50.jpg
 

Sodakjim,

I went to Bass pro and checkout one of the new Winchester Model 70's Featherlights "Made better". Not even close. Yes it had the same extrator and looks sort of the same but newer. Definately a nice gun. However the bolt was loose fitting did not lock up as tight as a Pre 64 Bolt and not manufactored with the same care and attention to detail like the old pre 64's Spec's.
IMO its not even close to the same quality. Time will tell lets see how the new one shoot in 60 years.

For those of you that have never held a mod 70 Pre 64 or worked the bolt on a one IMO they are tight and smooth as glass. Showing the quailty of the gun that I have never seem in another gun from my experence. I now understand what all the fuss is about.
 
Originally Posted By: AZPredatorSlayer
Sodakjim,

I went to Bass pro and checkout one of the new Winchester Model 70's Featherlights "Made better". Not even close. Yes it had the same extrator and looks sort of the same but newer. Definately a nice gun. However the bolt was loose fitting did not lock up as tight as a Pre 64 Bolt and not manufactored with the same care and attention to detail like the old pre 64's Spec's.
IMO its not even close to the same quality. Time will tell lets see how the new one shoot in 60 years.

For those of you that have never held a mod 70 Pre 64 or worked the bolt on a one IMO they are tight and smooth as glass. Showing the quailty of the gun that I have never seem in another gun from my experence. I now understand what all the fuss is about.


I looked over 6 examples of the New FN Model 70s at Cabelas and Scheels in the past 6 months. None had loose fitting bolts or was sloppy fitting anywhere. You may have been looking at one made prior to those coming from the South Carolina plant. Cabelas also had 1 NIB pre-64 model 70 that looked pretty drab next to the new ones. The new ones are made with better materials that should easily outlast the older ones according to Winchester. Over the years I have built over 15 custom model 70s, and re-furbished twice that many more. They are a good starting point for a great custom rifle. Even a cheap $50 surplus 98 Mauser or Springfield, and $150 to a good gunsmith, could get you a rifle that would easily out shoot a new pre-64 model 70 out of the box. Back in those days, many of the original Model 70 stocks ended up as fire wood in favor of higher grade wood. People had no idea they would have the collector value they enjoy today. I remember buying my first model 70 in 1960 for less than $150. I hope Winchester can maintain the quality of these newest model 70s and rebuild the reputation they once had. Even as good as the model 70 may be, there is still room for improvement.

This is where some of the old Model 70s ended up. Al Biesen was a neighbor in Spokane that made some of the finest custom rifles ever made. Several were on the cover of Guns Digest and other gun magazines.
http://www.biesen.com/new%20Rifle.html
 
My dad bought a pre-64 220 Swift when he was in the Navy from a pawn shop in Norfork, VA. Back then, raising a family on military pay was ruff. He paid a little each month until he paid it off.
He took me groundhog hunting at my grandpa's farm in Culleoka several times when I was a kid.

The 70 had a factory black stainless barrel and was a great shooter. I inherited it from him, and years later, sold it to get a rifle I had the "hots" for. Dumb move.
 
I'm in SodakJim's camp.
I own one of the newly made Model 70's from the FN plant in South Carolina. It is a VERY well made rifle in every respect. It required one range session to find two loads that shot inside 1/2" for 3 shots, at 100 yards. I've never had a rifle that shot that well out of the box.
The Pre-64 Model 70's may have been good in their day 50+ years ago, but they are not in the same league with new M-70's.
I seriously doubt that many pre-64 Model 70's could match the accuracy of my rifle.
Nostalgia; that's all Pre-64 Model 70's have going for them.
And, all of the one's I've hefted are HEAVY, with a mediocre trigger. The trigger on the new M-70 is OUTSTANDING.
 
Originally Posted By: AZPredatorSlayer
Sodakjim,

I went to Bass pro and checkout one of the new Winchester Model 70's Featherlights "Made better". Not even close. Yes it had the same extrator and looks sort of the same but newer. Definately a nice gun. However the bolt was loose fitting did not lock up as tight as a Pre 64 Bolt and not manufactored with the same care and attention to detail like the old pre 64's Spec's.
IMO its not even close to the same quality. Time will tell lets see how the new one shoot in 60 years.

For those of you that have never held a mod 70 Pre 64 or worked the bolt on a one IMO they are tight and smooth as glass. Showing the quailty of the gun that I have never seem in another gun from my experence. I now understand what all the fuss is about.

Let's try to put all of this in perspective.

I own several pre-64 model 70's and even have a quite expensive custom rifle built on a pre-64 action. There indeed is a mystique about them, partly real and largely manufactured by marketing folks and gun scribes, and it has added to and maintained their value over the years. However, it does not necessarily make them a better rifle.

When analyzed critically and not with a misty tear in one's eye for what they have, the action is not as good an action in comparison to more modern day actions. The biggest issue is that the pre-64 Model 70 used the very old Springfield cone breaching of the 19th century for chambering and bolt fit. It's very unsafe in the event of a case rupture. And it does not support the cartridge case head as well for purely accuracy purposes as does today's flat faced breaching...

Still, I will keep my pre-64 Model 70's for what they are... But I will not use one in this day and age for building a custom rifle simply because there are far better and safer actions available today that can be made to be just as smooth as any pre-64 has became over time..... And it can be done very cheaply in the total cost of a good custom hunting rifle.

I also own two of the newer FN model 70's. One I already have had slicked up to possibly build a custom rifle with, and it is in every way as smooth as the Pre-64's I own that, again, indeed became smooth over time and with use, and it is a much safer action to use.

Don't let the mystique blind you totally as to what you have. Granted you have several nice old rifles. Are they comparable to today's Model 70 in all ways..? No. Are they on the average more accurate than even the older post 64 Winchesters..? No.

It's kinda' like owning a restored 66 Ford Mustang. You have something very nice, but the total ride just isn't comparable in ways with the ride you can get with a newer model of car with today's technology. However, if you want to be in a parade and be noticed, the choice of cars is very easy...

Again, to be fair, you have a couple of very nice rifles. However if a company took to making the exact same action as the pre-64 with the cone breaching, both safety and accuracy would suffer a bunch... And it would indeed be a step backward in time and quality...

In closing, this is coming from a person who is very familiar with the old...and with the newer ones, too. Today's average prices for good unaltered run-of-the-mill nothing unusual or rare pre-64 Model 70's - $1200 range - is cheap in comparison to the same $1200 we paid for most of them 30 years ago. Back then, $1200 was a bunch of money, but we paid it largely because of the marketing hype of the time...! Not because of superior quality...

Enjoy your rifles... They are a great find, but they are not the Holy Grail...

-BCB
 
Quote:Sodakjim: The new ones are made with better materials that should easily outlast the older ones according to Winchester.

Quote:hm: I have personally put between 15,000 and 20,000 rounds through a pre-64 Mod. 70 National Match rifle that I purchased used. I might add, that I dry-fired this rifle at least an equal number of "rounds".


Have heard great things about the new Mod. 70's. Not to disagree w/SodakJim's post, but durability was not really a concern with the pre-64's IMHO.

Quote:BCB: The biggest issue is that the pre-64 Model 70 used the very old Springfield cone breaching of the 19th century for chambering and bolt fit. It's very unsafe in the event of a case rupture. And it does not support the cartridge case head as well for purely accuracy purposes as does today's flat faced breaching...

The fact that the case head is unsupported in the pre-64 Mod. 70 has long been criticized as a safety concern, but in all fairness, how many instances have been reported of such failures? How many millions of rounds have been fired in such chambers without incident? As far as cross the course target rifles are concerned, I personally prefer the cone breach to the flat breach for smooth, trouble free feeding. Of course, this is aided considerably by the controlled round feeding (which the post 64's did not have) as well.

Quote: BCB: Again, to be fair, you have a couple of very nice rifles. However if a company took to making the exact same action as the pre-64 with the cone breaching, both safety and accuracy would suffer a bunch...

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Above is a 20 shot 100 yard string fired from prone position (no artificial support), iron sights which measured .922" w/the pre-64 target rifle when it still had the original Winchester barrel. Never felt the need to change the factory trigger, although did have it tuned by a good smith to the minimum 3.5# and rifle had also been bedded.

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This picture is a 3" spotter placed in each bullet hole in target during a 600 yard match fired prone (iron sights,no rest) w/same action, and Mark Chandlin ss barrel. While the "group" shown measures 2.61", actual group would probably be larger due to fact the spotter is moved from shot to shot....aiming point remained the same, however. The 15th shot hit the wooden spindle which was in the previous bullet hole, splintered wooden spindle and blew a 6" hole in target face so was not able to measure the actual group.

Not claiming this is "out of the box" accuracy, but simply pointing out the potential of the action. I wouldn't be too concerned about accuracy w/pre-64 action
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Both designs have their advantages and disadvantages as has been very well outlined by Sodakjim & BCB, but the pre-64 works for me.

Regards,
hm

 
I rarely run across someone that knows his model 70 Winchesters as well as Bayou City Boy; And he can type too. Good post.

I believe the designers of the original model 70 were trying to take the best from the Mauser and Springfield actions to make a rifle more suited to sporting use. They got rid of all the military vestiges like the stripper clip boss, thumb relief, straight bolt handle, cock on closing firing pin assembly, heavy creeping trigger, wide trigger guard, military sights, multiple piece stock, cleaning rod, extra length barrel, and about 3 lbs of extra weight in the stock and hardware.

There were some European and Asian companies doing the same thing with mixed success. Many of the good bolt actions of the past 100 years owe quite a bit to the Mauser designs.
 
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