what causes "flyers" in groups on paper?

M

mudpuppy

New member
I have been trying some different loads for my new Sako 75 in 270win,
With every load I seem to get 2 holes touching and 1 about a inch away,

I've used 3 different bullets, and 4 diff powders in allot of diff loads.

The gun is shooting more than good enough to hunt with, but I would like to see a little better in this one.

What is it that causes flyers? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
I has similar results the other day when I was testing some new loads for my 223 NEF. I was using Benchmark powder with Nosler 55gr BT at 60 yards. (my backyard) I loaded 3 rounds of 3 different loads. 24.5...24.7...24.9. I shot one of each load at 3 different targets. Let the NEF cool for 10 mins (it was 80 degrees out !)Then shot the second round..one again of each at the appropriate target. Then cool again. Then finally, shot the last 3 rounds (one of each) at the targets. With the 24.5 loads, 2 were in the same hole, one was off about 1/2". The 24.9 grouped at about 1/2". BUT the 24.7 loads made one ragged hole at 60 yards. I was pleased with myself. The 24.7 load was the magic number for this bullet and powder combo. My point is this, many times during load developement, I find that I can put 2 in one hole but the 3 round is off about an inch or so. That means that its just not right yet. Close...but not right. Keep working at it...you will find the key...besides...its fun.
 
So if I am of understandingk you.

It has more to do with charge, ,, type of powder and weight,,
more-so than the bullet. It's weight and brand,, profile,,, ect,ect,ect,,,

That is consistant with what I have found.

Thanks,

Anyone else?
 
A gust of wind, or a flinch is most likely cause. If flyer is always on same shot of the sequence, it could be a bedding problem.
 
Most fly'rs I associate with me. If you have obtained a good case of ulcers by loading your cartridges to the n'th degree, review the principles of marksmanship. My biggest factor has always been moving my cheek on the stock or spot-weld in USMC parly. I have used a kitchen match taped to my stock so I could feel the contact and be in same same spot every time. This helps obtain the same eye-relief, same cant, same yadda, yadda, etc.

Putting rounds through the same hole is a goal, not reality. WAY-back in the late 1960's while a student at the USMC Scout-Sniper course, a GySgt gave me some advice that has stayed with me for all my life.

He told me that it was not this (he held up his hand with the thumb and fore-finger in a quarter sized circle), it is this every time you shoot (both hands making a 2" circle). I had shot near max every day that week until final qual day. Qual day I barely qualified because I forgot. The same way every time is the bottom line. Loads, bullets, weather, etc will always be X-factors, you can't be.

That's my nickle.
 
What is it that causes flyers?
Click to expand...
First off, when you shoot three shot groups and get two touching and one an inch of, you have just shot an moa group. Nothing bad about that and the one that stretched the group may not be a flyer at all, IMO /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

That said, it could be
1. wind
2. flinch
3. warming barrel
4. mirage
5. bedding
6. ammo
7. the shooter /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

And some other things that don't come to mind just now but someone will fill in for me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

My suggestion is this;

Three shot groups are a lousy indicator of the guns ability. I had a russian m44 that shot 6 moa. But if i shot enough 3 shot groups it would eventually give up an moa group. It's just the law of probabilities at work or also put, it's Murphy's law, "if it can happen, it will happen" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

My own standard for testing a firearm or load is a minimum of four five shot groups averaged (no "called flyers" allowed unless you call them without looking at the target)

If a gun is susceptible to barrel heating, I'll usually shoot two shots, let it cool, then shoot three or maybe just two and let it cool and then the last shot. Takes time but it gives a true picture of what the gun/load will do in the field.

I've got a suspicion that if you try four five shot groups as suggested above you will find yourself looking at four rather nice moa +/- groups the average of which will tell you you have a fine rifle.

Follow a similar regimen to test your loads to find the best one.

Heck, as long as I've gone overboard on this post I'll mention another opinion on load testing. It's my belief that the first thing you test for is a good bullet, then a good powder, then a good COAL, then a good primer.

Start with the bullets that will do the job you want to do and load all of them exactly the same with the same powder selection and with COAL per SAMMI spec. You should pick a powder that is generally a good all around powder for your cartridge such as 4350 for your .270. Shoot your groups and select your bullet. Then try some of the other powder selections that are tried and true favorites for your cartridge. Pick your powder and go on to fiddling with COAL and then on to charge weight. Last, play with your primer.

That has worked for me on a number of rifles and there are lot's of other ways to do it but that's my way.

Above all, only change one variable at a time!!
 
I've been having a similar problem working up loads for my CZ in .17 Remington caliber. The target on the left was shot with a cold barrel. These were 30 grain rounds. The second target (wider spread was shot with Calhoon 28 grain bullets. What is with the flyers? I've been getting very frustrated by the flyer thing.
Target-Woodchuck.jpg
Target-Calhoon.jpg
 
There are reasons for some fliers but many are just normal statistical variation. Most all data, such as group size, when graphed will form the "bell curve" shape. That is; most fit under the tall part of the bell but some will be out under those flared edges, which can be a long ways from the majority under the center portion.

Another way to visualize it is; You have a rifle that 75% of your groups are between 1" and 1.5". It will have some 3" groups and some 1/4" groups. They will not be many on either end because 75% are in the 1-1.5 range and most of the remaining 25% are not far out of that range.

Jack
 
Thanks Jack. I've loaded up about fifteen rounds of the two loads I tried last time. This time I'll fire a couple of fouling rounds and then shoot for groups with each load. We'll see what happens.

It seems like there are variables I can never control such as seating concentricity, exact charge (I reload with a Dillon progressive) and temp. I keep reading about these guys that are getting .5 inch groups and it frustrates me. I want to get a load that is really dialed in.
 
CA Desert Dog,
You have to realize that most people talking about 1/2" groups are talking about some good groups, not normally the average, and almost never about the worst. They also tend to throw out fliers, which is a statistical no-no. In real life, bragging rights aside, the most important groups are your worst ones. It is the worst group which will cause you to miss an animal or drop points in a match.

And all this small group stuff only applies to shooting from a rest, at a known range, under reasonable conditions. In the field, trying to hit a small target, at a not quite sure range, deciding whether to hold 3" or 6" into the wind is a lot more important than a bit smaller group from a bench.

Jack
 
And most of those 1/2" groups are with a varmint caliber. A 270 is tough to shoot group well due to recoil. the recoil may not bother you but it will upset the gun at every shot so the alignment in the bags(small stresses) are the same either.
 
What causes fliers-

1. Gnat in your ear while shooting
2. Some dumba.. suddenly honking horn or closing a car door behing you while shooting
3. Target stand falling over while shooting
4. Stool collapsing underneath you while shooting
5. Loading different bullets (weight/charge) in magazine
6. Using a POS scope
7. Bullet and bird somehow cross paths down range
8. Someone else shot at your target
9. Concentrating to intensely on breathing, causing yourself to cough
10. Using odd shaped objects as a rest

Had to impart a little humor. Good post though, continue on!
 
Originally posted by Big_Tex22:
[qb]What causes fliers-

1. Gnat in your ear while shooting
2. Some dumba.. suddenly honking horn or closing a car door behing you while shooting
3. Target stand falling over while shooting
4. Stool collapsing underneath you while shooting
5. Loading different bullets (weight/charge) in magazine
6. Using a POS scope
7. Bullet and bird somehow cross paths down range
8. Someone else shot at your target
9. Concentrating to intensely on breathing, causing yourself to cough
10. Using odd shaped objects as a rest

Had to impart a little humor. Good post though, continue on![/qb]
Click to expand...
1,2 and 9 happened to me today.
Mike.
 
I'll add a couple of other things to check. Make sure of your headspace on your cases (one of my old problems) and uniformity of bullet ogive off the lands.
 
Hi i had a new Remington 700 ADL 22 250 do the same thing the 2 of the holes would be touching and the #3 would go high and to the right every time so after many diff loads and powder test i went to a gun smith like on the third shot the barrel was getting hot and touching the stock so i had the action glass bedd the barrel floated and the crown repolish i had the trigger job done before all of this and now it will shoot great at first it was shooting a 1 inch group now a 3 shot group is in the same hole almost it was worth it VM
 
Big_Tex22, How about a "bob wahr" just under the cross hairs, up close?
Mostly I blame it on the loose nut behind the bench, or serious operator malfunction!
Mark
 
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