OK here come's .02 more. The state of our dysfunctional labor market isn't due to unions migrant workers, or scabs. The responsibility lies with everyone that shops at Wally World, Krap Mart, and Tarshae(Target). It seems that Americans have a bi-polar disease. They want to make the most money possible at their jobs, and pay the least amount for the goods or services that they buy. Well guess what, the only way that works is if our goods and services are provided by non-Americans. It isn't rocket science. Most consumers don't care whether it's American made or not, just that they saved .38 cents on it.
Union Pro or Con??
- Thread starter badkarma74
- Start date
As a union person I have a multitude of companies I can work for, in construction you usualy move around from company to company.
What I can't do is move from here to Mexico and steal there work, it doesn't pay enough. They come here, giving employers a worker surplus to drive down wages. It used to be limitted to agri culture but now its in all fields of work.
We can all exspect to be working for less in years to come.( Unless of course your a Government Employee )
What I can't do is move from here to Mexico and steal there work, it doesn't pay enough. They come here, giving employers a worker surplus to drive down wages. It used to be limitted to agri culture but now its in all fields of work.
We can all exspect to be working for less in years to come.( Unless of course your a Government Employee )
MO,
It appears you are definately pro-union and seems alot in here are not. But just to toss something out for the sake of discussion, and for a few of the non-union guys to think about. I am going to grab a quote from one of your posts.
It is titled "Overtime Rules Are Under Review". This administration is looking at the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act. This is the act that covers minimum wage, 1 1/2 times pay for anything past 40 hours, and the criteria for exempt and salary status.
It appears this administration believes this act is hurting business. So they want to lower the criteria for salary and exempt status down to "specialized training". What this will do is exempt any worker with this "specialized training" from 1 1/2 pay after 40 hours if he is salaried. The criteria of "specialized training" appears so vast, that basically, it will only be non-skilled minimum wage laborers qualifying for 1 1/2 after 40. This is supposed to help business by lowering labor costs for employers.
Now just so everyone is aware. The orginized labor unions are against this, and are activily pursuing it in Washington. At present, there are 80 million workers in the USA that qualify for overtime pay. If your non-union, and still collecting overtime pay, I think you kind of owe the unions of this country, atleast a little debt of grattitude. In a round about way, they are fighting for you also.
Just something to think about....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
It appears you are definately pro-union and seems alot in here are not. But just to toss something out for the sake of discussion, and for a few of the non-union guys to think about. I am going to grab a quote from one of your posts.
That being said, I want to bring to light something about our present administration. This is a news article from the Allentown Morning Call Newspaper. It was in the Saturday Feb 1 Business section.
It is titled "Overtime Rules Are Under Review". This administration is looking at the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act. This is the act that covers minimum wage, 1 1/2 times pay for anything past 40 hours, and the criteria for exempt and salary status.
It appears this administration believes this act is hurting business. So they want to lower the criteria for salary and exempt status down to "specialized training". What this will do is exempt any worker with this "specialized training" from 1 1/2 pay after 40 hours if he is salaried. The criteria of "specialized training" appears so vast, that basically, it will only be non-skilled minimum wage laborers qualifying for 1 1/2 after 40. This is supposed to help business by lowering labor costs for employers.
Now just so everyone is aware. The orginized labor unions are against this, and are activily pursuing it in Washington. At present, there are 80 million workers in the USA that qualify for overtime pay. If your non-union, and still collecting overtime pay, I think you kind of owe the unions of this country, atleast a little debt of grattitude. In a round about way, they are fighting for you also.
Just something to think about....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Yup, we got wrestlers, and alot of girls softball greats. I am sandwiched right between Northampton High School, Nazereth High Shcool, and Lehigh University.
Oh, by the way. I am a non-union worker, but still support unions. I wish we had one this year. We have been taking a pounding on health benifits, pension stuff, pay increases, and alot of other stuff. This overtime article caught our attention. The company I work for has a habit of abusing its salary guys as it is. Load them up with work and most are there for 10 hour days at a minimum. Most of us "hourly" guys do have "specialized training", so it is a major concern.
Oh, by the way. I am a non-union worker, but still support unions. I wish we had one this year. We have been taking a pounding on health benifits, pension stuff, pay increases, and alot of other stuff. This overtime article caught our attention. The company I work for has a habit of abusing its salary guys as it is. Load them up with work and most are there for 10 hour days at a minimum. Most of us "hourly" guys do have "specialized training", so it is a major concern.
Sounds like things in in PA are alright. A lot of people around here would be glad just to have some work. A lot are not even getting 40 hours a week and would probably be glad to work a little overtime. Not saying they shouldn't be paid time and a half, just saying that some would jump at the chance, even if for straight time.
I've heard that before. Yellowhammer,
The only reason we are working the hours we are, is because they installed a new computer system for material management called S.A.P. Also because we just recently got bought by another company, and their Wisconsin operation got absorbed by the PA facility. Most business here is just as flat as everywhere else in the country.
But, you do bring up an interesting point about people just being happy to work extra hours for straight time.
I am totally confused as to why the workforce has taken the direction it has. Maybe it's because my dad was a steel worker, and those guys stuck together through thick and thin. So maybe I am a little brainwashed on this.
But the people in the workforce today, are definately different. They'll cut your throat for just the chance to get ahead. But in the end, it doesn't get them anywhere. It's amazing how companies use this to their advantage. Not so much the owners I guess, but more middle management. The working world is pretty screwed up right now. Unions had their place years ago and were a good thing. They then declined a bit when things were doing ok. I think it is time they become a bit stronger again now. But I am not sure if that is possible with the mind set of the younger workers today.
It's tough for these younger folks today. I think alot tougher than when I was getting established, and I am only 43. You'll never hear me say "to be young again".
The only reason we are working the hours we are, is because they installed a new computer system for material management called S.A.P. Also because we just recently got bought by another company, and their Wisconsin operation got absorbed by the PA facility. Most business here is just as flat as everywhere else in the country.
But, you do bring up an interesting point about people just being happy to work extra hours for straight time.
I am totally confused as to why the workforce has taken the direction it has. Maybe it's because my dad was a steel worker, and those guys stuck together through thick and thin. So maybe I am a little brainwashed on this.
But the people in the workforce today, are definately different. They'll cut your throat for just the chance to get ahead. But in the end, it doesn't get them anywhere. It's amazing how companies use this to their advantage. Not so much the owners I guess, but more middle management. The working world is pretty screwed up right now. Unions had their place years ago and were a good thing. They then declined a bit when things were doing ok. I think it is time they become a bit stronger again now. But I am not sure if that is possible with the mind set of the younger workers today.
It's tough for these younger folks today. I think alot tougher than when I was getting established, and I am only 43. You'll never hear me say "to be young again".
tonlocus,
The area is nice. We have jobs, but suffer just as all the rest of the states. Health care is a big issue here. Nurses seem to be the in the biggest demand. Hospitols are even offering signing bonuses, and paying the balance of their student loans to entice them. It's a tough job, and I don't think I would be able to handle it. I get to travel around the states a little. I get to Arizona, Caifornia, and Nevada quite a bit. I like the southwest, and can't blame you for running off to such a place. It's good to get out and about, to see what this country is like. This area I am in, you can't believe how many people have not been farther west than Harrisburgh (about 85 miles). Sometimes I think California is not the most liberal state in the nation..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
The area is nice. We have jobs, but suffer just as all the rest of the states. Health care is a big issue here. Nurses seem to be the in the biggest demand. Hospitols are even offering signing bonuses, and paying the balance of their student loans to entice them. It's a tough job, and I don't think I would be able to handle it. I get to travel around the states a little. I get to Arizona, Caifornia, and Nevada quite a bit. I like the southwest, and can't blame you for running off to such a place. It's good to get out and about, to see what this country is like. This area I am in, you can't believe how many people have not been farther west than Harrisburgh (about 85 miles). Sometimes I think California is not the most liberal state in the nation..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Hodgen, you had it right when you said people were different now. I have seen the back stabbing in the unions also. Too much politic'n and trying to get ahead of the other guy. There are times when our BA makes "sweetheart" deals with companies and it turns out bad for the rest of us. It seems people will do anything for the "American Dream", two cars, white picket fence, etc. I just want to get by, and be left to live as I please. I guess I am just a simple man. Just my .02
SRS1,
As I said, I have no clue as to why things are the way they are. Perhaps things got easy through the late 80's and 90's, and these are the offspring of the non-union mind set of that era, that we are seeing coming into the workforce now. Hopefully the phrase "history repeats itself" is true. What we have now isn't good.
The american worker is working harder than ever, and in some cases for less money. I think I read an article somewhere, that workers in PA, work more hours in a month than the japanese. I think it's time for the labor force to show a little unity and strength, just to show a point.
I know it would only ever be a pipe dream, but could you imagine the effect, if all hourly workers just called off sick for one day, to show unity????
They could call it the "blue coller flu".
Bet that would wake up everybody..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
As I said, I have no clue as to why things are the way they are. Perhaps things got easy through the late 80's and 90's, and these are the offspring of the non-union mind set of that era, that we are seeing coming into the workforce now. Hopefully the phrase "history repeats itself" is true. What we have now isn't good.
The american worker is working harder than ever, and in some cases for less money. I think I read an article somewhere, that workers in PA, work more hours in a month than the japanese. I think it's time for the labor force to show a little unity and strength, just to show a point.
I know it would only ever be a pipe dream, but could you imagine the effect, if all hourly workers just called off sick for one day, to show unity????
They could call it the "blue coller flu".
Bet that would wake up everybody..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
The trend for the last century in regard to the number of hours worked per week has actually be a downward trend. There has been only a slight increase in the last few years.
http://www.preservenet.com/studies/hours.gif
http://www.preservenet.com/studies/hours.gif
As a Union construction worker I'm paid 28.70 hr.Hardley ever do I see overtime. When a holiday comes, we set home,no pay. ( we tend to hate holidays )We don't have schedual vacations. We take vacation when we happen to be in between jobs.( thereby we tend not to spend too much money because we don't know when exactly the next job starts.)A 10 month work year is considered a good year.When the econmy goes south, we are usuasly the ones to feel it 1st.In my paticular Union, which covers all the US,Theres no such thing as senority which means us old guys compete with the young bucks for our jobs.Theres no so called out of work list, if an employer doesn't want one of us he doesn't have to hire him.I cannot see how this translates into spoiled lazziness.
Today's Parade Magazine's feature acticle was title "What People Earn". It had some interesting stats for today's workforce.
2002 At a Glance:
Unemployement rate 5.8%
Inflation rate 1.6 %
Median weekly salary for all workers(half earned more, half earned less): $610.00
Median weekly salary for men: $685.00
Median weekly salary for women: $531.00
Average hourly pay for non-supervisory workers: $14.77/hour
There were a couple of other interesting facts.
The total long-term debt of American Households, on average, now adds up to more than 100% of their after-tax income. The highest level on record.
This might answer the question of why workers are willing to work for the wages that employers offer. They simply cannot afford not too.
Another interesting fact is that whitecollar workers went jobless longer last year than crafts workers or laborers, according to the Labor Dept.
I also found it funny that the highest paid people in our country are not politicians, bankers, or Corporate CEO's. Anyone want to take a quess who they are? Entertainers. This includes: Actors, models, movie makers, dancers, singers, and professional atheletes. A few examples listed by Parade:
Yearly Income:
Arnold Schwazeneggar-$35 million
Cameron Diaz-$40 million
Amare Stoudemire(NBA)-$1.9 million
Stephen King-$52.4 million
George Lucas-$200 million
Ozzy Osbourne-$20 million
Koby Bryant(NBA)-$13.5 million
Bill Clinton-$25 million
Gisele Bundchen(Super Model)-$12.5 million
Las Vegas Showgirl-$125,000
Hawaii Kiteboard school owner-$200,000
Sandra Bullock-$30 million
In contrast:
Gen. Tommy Franks Chief, Central Command US Army $145,000
Police Officer(WV)-$28,000
Fire fighter (Detroit) $50,000
School teacher(Maine)-$43,000
Kind of funny what we value in society.
I thought these two were funny:
Utah mink farmer-$68,000
Coordinator for PETA-$25,000
2002 At a Glance:
Unemployement rate 5.8%
Inflation rate 1.6 %
Median weekly salary for all workers(half earned more, half earned less): $610.00
Median weekly salary for men: $685.00
Median weekly salary for women: $531.00
Average hourly pay for non-supervisory workers: $14.77/hour
There were a couple of other interesting facts.
The total long-term debt of American Households, on average, now adds up to more than 100% of their after-tax income. The highest level on record.
This might answer the question of why workers are willing to work for the wages that employers offer. They simply cannot afford not too.
Another interesting fact is that whitecollar workers went jobless longer last year than crafts workers or laborers, according to the Labor Dept.
I also found it funny that the highest paid people in our country are not politicians, bankers, or Corporate CEO's. Anyone want to take a quess who they are? Entertainers. This includes: Actors, models, movie makers, dancers, singers, and professional atheletes. A few examples listed by Parade:
Yearly Income:
Arnold Schwazeneggar-$35 million
Cameron Diaz-$40 million
Amare Stoudemire(NBA)-$1.9 million
Stephen King-$52.4 million
George Lucas-$200 million
Ozzy Osbourne-$20 million
Koby Bryant(NBA)-$13.5 million
Bill Clinton-$25 million
Gisele Bundchen(Super Model)-$12.5 million
Las Vegas Showgirl-$125,000
Hawaii Kiteboard school owner-$200,000
Sandra Bullock-$30 million
In contrast:
Gen. Tommy Franks Chief, Central Command US Army $145,000
Police Officer(WV)-$28,000
Fire fighter (Detroit) $50,000
School teacher(Maine)-$43,000
Kind of funny what we value in society.
I thought these two were funny:
Utah mink farmer-$68,000
Coordinator for PETA-$25,000
In almost all cases, the private sector equivilent will make much more than a government employee. I have been a state employee for 10 years. During that time, employee raises have averaged about 1.5% per year. The cost of living has gone up much more than that.
On the average, government employes recieve wage increases when those in the private sector don,t. I have every year recieved an increase in my total package. But I have not seen it on my check. We take that increase and apply it to our health care as health care goes up higher each year.Back in the late 80's thru the early 90's I went 6 years with no raise.
That may or may not be true, but the fact remains that goverment employees income is less than a comparable private sector job.
Federal employees have gotten cost of living increases, but don't confuse this with state and local government employees. I'm talking employees not elected officials.
Again, a federal employee usually makes less than a employee doing the same job. Health Insurance only narrows the gap. The gap still exists.
Maybe upper management jobs pay more in the private sector,but here I think we are talking jobs which can be covered by Unions.
Public Teachers,Road Maintanance, Garbage collector,Grounds Keeper,Prison Guards, etc in the public sector make more than there private sector contemporaries.
Private sector employees must show proffits to keep there job. Is there such a thing as showing profits in the public sector ?
Bush recently attempted to make Airport security private, the Democrates demanded they be Federal. Is it because Federal Employees do it better at a compettive price?
I know of many private sector employees seeking public sector jobs. I know of no public employees seeking private sector jobs.
Public Teachers,Road Maintanance, Garbage collector,Grounds Keeper,Prison Guards, etc in the public sector make more than there private sector contemporaries.
Private sector employees must show proffits to keep there job. Is there such a thing as showing profits in the public sector ?
Bush recently attempted to make Airport security private, the Democrates demanded they be Federal. Is it because Federal Employees do it better at a compettive price?
I know of many private sector employees seeking public sector jobs. I know of no public employees seeking private sector jobs.
Do you think public school teachers make more than private school teachers? I can't say for sure, but I doubt that.
Many of the jobs you listed have little if any private sector equivilents.
Government employee are living to go to the private sector a lot, which is one of the major problems faced by state governments. The state of Texas figures that job turnover is costing them millions of dollars every year. They can't keep good employee, because of lower wages. Texas is currently under a hiring freeze, as well as the Federal Government.
Many of the jobs you listed have little if any private sector equivilents.
Government employee are living to go to the private sector a lot, which is one of the major problems faced by state governments. The state of Texas figures that job turnover is costing them millions of dollars every year. They can't keep good employee, because of lower wages. Texas is currently under a hiring freeze, as well as the Federal Government.