boonecounty
New member
I have a 700 VTR that shoots like crap. Want to rebarrel into a 284 win. So go or no go? Is there a better 7mm out there that I'm over looking?
Talk me out of building a 284 win.
- Thread starter boonecounty
- Start date
ksduckhntr
Active member
Long action? What's it gong to be used for? I would suggest the 280 AI if long action.
You're going to get a lot of opinions, but I can't imagine anything better than your current choice, as long as you handload.
I didn't know the VTR was made in a long action, been a long time since I looked at a Remington.
If it's a short action, I'd go with 7mm-08 unless you need long range energy- then 7mm SAUM. I don't care for the 7mm WSM. I like more neck with that much boiler room.
Happy hunting.
I didn't know the VTR was made in a long action, been a long time since I looked at a Remington.
If it's a short action, I'd go with 7mm-08 unless you need long range energy- then 7mm SAUM. I don't care for the 7mm WSM. I like more neck with that much boiler room.
Happy hunting.
Originally Posted By: boonecountyI have a 700 VTR that shoots like crap. Want to rebarrel into a 284 win. So go or no go? Is there a better 7mm out there that I'm over looking?
Are you dead set on it being a .284/7mm???
If not, in that size case I much prefer 6.5-284 over straight 284. IMO, the 284 size case is best suited for bullets in the 140-ish weight class and the 6.5 bullets in that weight have a pretty sizable BC advantage over the .284/7mm. Also, Lapua 6.5-284 brass is pretty much load and go and will outlast all others. Not that there is anything wrong with a straight 284 and if that's what you are set on, either with a quality custom barrel will serve you well.
Are you dead set on it being a .284/7mm???
If not, in that size case I much prefer 6.5-284 over straight 284. IMO, the 284 size case is best suited for bullets in the 140-ish weight class and the 6.5 bullets in that weight have a pretty sizable BC advantage over the .284/7mm. Also, Lapua 6.5-284 brass is pretty much load and go and will outlast all others. Not that there is anything wrong with a straight 284 and if that's what you are set on, either with a quality custom barrel will serve you well.
derbyacresbob
Well-known member
Hillary Clinton loves the 284 Win.
boonecounty
New member
Thanks for the options so far gentlemen. My VTR as I believe all VTR's is a short action. 7mm-08 kinda seems like a bit of a limp noodle compared to the 284 win? Or am I wrong? 6.5x284 is awesome, but already have 260 rem in the stable, and looking for something with more uumpph at range. 7 saum seems great, but what about brass availability?
boonecounty
New member
Omg that is funny. Didn't see that before my last reply. I think HilLary would more of a 6mm br fan, short and narrow.
Originally Posted By: boonecounty 7 saum seems great, but what about brass availability?
Brass availability absolutely sucks. WSMs are getting bad enough. The RSAUMs had a lot going for them but are orphans at this point. Heck, in 2006 I was deciding between a 300 RSAUM and 300WM and the single box of 300 RSAUM ammo Cabelas had in stock…no brass…made my decision, and I've never looked back.
I have one wildcat working off WSM brass and I've located exactly 3 bags of brass in 3 years….
Brass availability absolutely sucks. WSMs are getting bad enough. The RSAUMs had a lot going for them but are orphans at this point. Heck, in 2006 I was deciding between a 300 RSAUM and 300WM and the single box of 300 RSAUM ammo Cabelas had in stock…no brass…made my decision, and I've never looked back.
I have one wildcat working off WSM brass and I've located exactly 3 bags of brass in 3 years….
Huckleberry75
Member
The 284 Win is best served by a long action rather than the short flavor, due to mag restrictions. IN a long action, you can seat bullets out to where they don't eat up case capacity. In a short action, you hamstring yourself a bit when trying to use the heavy for caliber bullets. If you only plan to run the light pills like the Berger 140 vldh at the most, then you may be alright. If you run a long action, drop to the 6.5x284 and run a 140 class bullet, it will walk all over the 284 on BC. It also depends upon intended purpose. For a hunting rig, a 6.5x284 is a fine chambering, but for a match gun, its a little rough on barrel throats.
boonecounty
New member
All valid points. Let post the article that inspired my thought process, and see what you all think.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek095.html
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek095.html
Winny Fan
New member
Don't let anyone talk you out of a 284 Winchester.
It's not a round everyone wants, but it's an extremely good 7MM cartridge for 140 grain bullets on down in weight. So is the 6.5-284.
Unless you regularly try to shot game animals at 500+ yards, neither you nor the animal will know the difference. And if you do regularly try to shoot game animals at extended distances, you'll be better served by getting a 7MM Rem Mag or a 264 Win Mag both loaded with heavier bullets.
I own both a 6.5-284 and a couple of 284 Win rifles and they are different enough that I'll likely die with all of them still in a safe at my house.
It's not a round everyone wants, but it's an extremely good 7MM cartridge for 140 grain bullets on down in weight. So is the 6.5-284.
Unless you regularly try to shot game animals at 500+ yards, neither you nor the animal will know the difference. And if you do regularly try to shoot game animals at extended distances, you'll be better served by getting a 7MM Rem Mag or a 264 Win Mag both loaded with heavier bullets.
I own both a 6.5-284 and a couple of 284 Win rifles and they are different enough that I'll likely die with all of them still in a safe at my house.
BooneCountry, I have had two 6/284's and a 25/284, great case. I had these rifles built in the early 80's for long range coyotes and then the 25 cal for p. dogs. At that time, I had no experience in reamer design in relationship with actions specifications and barrel life, experience obviously comes with a price. There were issues I encountered.
First was the length of the bullet to touch the lands in relation to how large the opening is in the action.
Second is the case's powder capacity vs seating the bullet way down in the case to conserve mag box length.
Third, the guns liked the bullets seated near the lands, so If I seated that long, I could not use the mag box, nor could I eject a loaded round without removing the bolt.
So, you have some alternatives to accomplish the same thing, one being a 7/08 AI. I would also have the action opened up to accept a Wyatt's mag box.
If you are bound and determined, get a long action. Then throw a 280 and 280 AI into the pot which are unreal accurate cases.
So, since you can not chase the lands as the leade grows on a relatively over bore case, usable long range barrel life can be short...BIG SURPRISE!
DAA, has a 6/284 hope he chimes in. The 6/284 with zero freebore would shoot the 55-62g bullets in the 4400 fps area, and if a guy only uses the rifle hunting, then the barrel has many years of use with this set up.
Everybody gets all gigged up over a short action and its weight, but there is only 6 oz diff in a long action and short action. I even put my 257 Roberts, 6 Remington on long actions...marriage made in Heaven.
Best wishes
First was the length of the bullet to touch the lands in relation to how large the opening is in the action.
Second is the case's powder capacity vs seating the bullet way down in the case to conserve mag box length.
Third, the guns liked the bullets seated near the lands, so If I seated that long, I could not use the mag box, nor could I eject a loaded round without removing the bolt.
So, you have some alternatives to accomplish the same thing, one being a 7/08 AI. I would also have the action opened up to accept a Wyatt's mag box.
If you are bound and determined, get a long action. Then throw a 280 and 280 AI into the pot which are unreal accurate cases.
So, since you can not chase the lands as the leade grows on a relatively over bore case, usable long range barrel life can be short...BIG SURPRISE!
DAA, has a 6/284 hope he chimes in. The 6/284 with zero freebore would shoot the 55-62g bullets in the 4400 fps area, and if a guy only uses the rifle hunting, then the barrel has many years of use with this set up.
Everybody gets all gigged up over a short action and its weight, but there is only 6 oz diff in a long action and short action. I even put my 257 Roberts, 6 Remington on long actions...marriage made in Heaven.
Best wishes
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Originally Posted By: ackleymanDAA, has a 6/284 hope he chimes in.
My 6-284 is a 13 twist with zero free bore, built it to shoot 55's at warp speed. Dedicated coyote rifle. Not really anything like what the OP is wanting. Mine does feed and eject beautifully on a short action, but, it's on a Nesika that has a 700 SA footprint but with a longer ejection port and I'm using short light bullets.
- DAA
My 6-284 is a 13 twist with zero free bore, built it to shoot 55's at warp speed. Dedicated coyote rifle. Not really anything like what the OP is wanting. Mine does feed and eject beautifully on a short action, but, it's on a Nesika that has a 700 SA footprint but with a longer ejection port and I'm using short light bullets.
- DAA
I think far to much importance is placed on seating bullets out as to not take up any more case capacity than the bare minimum.
I remember a few years back Kirby Allen doing a good amount of testing on how much difference there was in velocity when a chamber was set up in order to use the maximum amount of usable case capacity versus the same cartridge chamber set up that the bullet was seated down in the case.
The amount of powder used before they pressured out was obviously less in the one with the same bullet seated deeper into the case but the velocity difference between the two was minimal.
I know when I play with seating depths in my QL program and seat a 140gr Berger way out versus the same bullet but seated deep enough to be used in a SA then run both up to max pressure the one with the longer OAL takes about one grain more powder to reach max pressure than does the shorter OAL but the velocity on both is less than 10fps difference.
I remember a few years back Kirby Allen doing a good amount of testing on how much difference there was in velocity when a chamber was set up in order to use the maximum amount of usable case capacity versus the same cartridge chamber set up that the bullet was seated down in the case.
The amount of powder used before they pressured out was obviously less in the one with the same bullet seated deeper into the case but the velocity difference between the two was minimal.
I know when I play with seating depths in my QL program and seat a 140gr Berger way out versus the same bullet but seated deep enough to be used in a SA then run both up to max pressure the one with the longer OAL takes about one grain more powder to reach max pressure than does the shorter OAL but the velocity on both is less than 10fps difference.
Winny Fan
New member
Originally Posted By: B23I think far to much importance is placed on seating bullets out as to not take up any more case capacity than the bare minimum.
I remember a few years back Kirby Allen doing a good amount of testing on how much difference there was in velocity when a chamber was set up in order to use the maximum amount of usable case capacity versus the same cartridge chamber set up that the bullet was seated down in the case.
The amount of powder used before they pressured out was obviously less in the one with the same bullet seated deeper into the case but the velocity difference between the two was minimal.
I know when I play with seating depths in my QL program and seat a 140gr Berger way out versus the same bullet but seated deep enough to be used in a SA then run both up to max pressure the one with the longer OAL takes about one grain more powder to reach max pressure than does the shorter OAL but the velocity on both is less than 10fps difference.
Excellent post..!!
I'm sure it will cause some people to grind their teeth, but your assessment is spot on.
For hunting purposes, a long "most ballistically efficient" bullet is not needed, and a short action will house the 284 Win with excellent 140 grain bullets designed for hunting. Just like it was designed to do in the Win Model 88/100 actions.
If you want to use the cartridge with long, high BC bullets for long range accuracy purposes, a long action will suit your needs better.
I remember a few years back Kirby Allen doing a good amount of testing on how much difference there was in velocity when a chamber was set up in order to use the maximum amount of usable case capacity versus the same cartridge chamber set up that the bullet was seated down in the case.
The amount of powder used before they pressured out was obviously less in the one with the same bullet seated deeper into the case but the velocity difference between the two was minimal.
I know when I play with seating depths in my QL program and seat a 140gr Berger way out versus the same bullet but seated deep enough to be used in a SA then run both up to max pressure the one with the longer OAL takes about one grain more powder to reach max pressure than does the shorter OAL but the velocity on both is less than 10fps difference.
Excellent post..!!
I'm sure it will cause some people to grind their teeth, but your assessment is spot on.
For hunting purposes, a long "most ballistically efficient" bullet is not needed, and a short action will house the 284 Win with excellent 140 grain bullets designed for hunting. Just like it was designed to do in the Win Model 88/100 actions.
If you want to use the cartridge with long, high BC bullets for long range accuracy purposes, a long action will suit your needs better.
Originally Posted By: B23I think far to much importance is placed on seating bullets out as to not take up any more case capacity than the bare minimum.
I remember a few years back Kirby Allen doing a good amount of testing on how much difference there was in velocity when a chamber was set up in order to use the maximum amount of usable case capacity versus the same cartridge chamber set up that the bullet was seated down in the case.
The amount of powder used before they pressured out was obviously less in the one with the same bullet seated deeper into the case but the velocity difference between the two was minimal.
I know when I play with seating depths in my QL program and seat a 140gr Berger way out versus the same bullet but seated deep enough to be used in a SA then run both up to max pressure the one with the longer OAL takes about one grain more powder to reach max pressure than does the shorter OAL but the velocity on both is less than 10fps difference.
The big deal is chasing the lands as the leade grows. In my brand new 25/284 I could not seat the bullets to touch the lands and get the bullet out of the rifle without removing the bolt, and this is the case on a lot of VLD bullets in the 284 case.
A good alternative is a 7/08 AI, use new unfired Lake City brass(stronger than Lapua) or Lapua brass.
For accuracy, you have to adjust your seating depth to accommodate the "sweet spot" that produces the best accuracy, in long cases in short actions, this is all but impossible, the 7x57 cases and deviants are also included. IN most cases, a bullet will only jump so far till it gets started crooked, accuracy will be lost forever at this point. IN this case, the throat dia is critical in getting the bullet started straight. If you design a reamer for this situation, then make the throat .0003 over bullet dia., and you will have a very accurate rifle for a long time, with JGS grinding your reamer so that you get what you ask for.
I remember a few years back Kirby Allen doing a good amount of testing on how much difference there was in velocity when a chamber was set up in order to use the maximum amount of usable case capacity versus the same cartridge chamber set up that the bullet was seated down in the case.
The amount of powder used before they pressured out was obviously less in the one with the same bullet seated deeper into the case but the velocity difference between the two was minimal.
I know when I play with seating depths in my QL program and seat a 140gr Berger way out versus the same bullet but seated deep enough to be used in a SA then run both up to max pressure the one with the longer OAL takes about one grain more powder to reach max pressure than does the shorter OAL but the velocity on both is less than 10fps difference.
The big deal is chasing the lands as the leade grows. In my brand new 25/284 I could not seat the bullets to touch the lands and get the bullet out of the rifle without removing the bolt, and this is the case on a lot of VLD bullets in the 284 case.
A good alternative is a 7/08 AI, use new unfired Lake City brass(stronger than Lapua) or Lapua brass.
For accuracy, you have to adjust your seating depth to accommodate the "sweet spot" that produces the best accuracy, in long cases in short actions, this is all but impossible, the 7x57 cases and deviants are also included. IN most cases, a bullet will only jump so far till it gets started crooked, accuracy will be lost forever at this point. IN this case, the throat dia is critical in getting the bullet started straight. If you design a reamer for this situation, then make the throat .0003 over bullet dia., and you will have a very accurate rifle for a long time, with JGS grinding your reamer so that you get what you ask for.
Originally Posted By: ackleymanOriginally Posted By: B23I think far to much importance is placed on seating bullets out as to not take up any more case capacity than the bare minimum.
I remember a few years back Kirby Allen doing a good amount of testing on how much difference there was in velocity when a chamber was set up in order to use the maximum amount of usable case capacity versus the same cartridge chamber set up that the bullet was seated down in the case.
The amount of powder used before they pressured out was obviously less in the one with the same bullet seated deeper into the case but the velocity difference between the two was minimal.
I know when I play with seating depths in my QL program and seat a 140gr Berger way out versus the same bullet but seated deep enough to be used in a SA then run both up to max pressure the one with the longer OAL takes about one grain more powder to reach max pressure than does the shorter OAL but the velocity on both is less than 10fps difference.
The big deal is chasing the lands as the leade grows. In my brand new 25/284 I could not seat the bullets to touch the lands and get the bullet out of the rifle without removing the bolt, and this is the case on a lot of VLD bullets in the 284 case.
A good alternative is a 7/08 AI, use new unfired Lake City brass(stronger than Lapua) or Lapua brass.
For accuracy, you have to adjust your seating depth to accommodate the "sweet spot" that produces the best accuracy, in long cases in short actions, this is all but impossible, the 7x57 cases and deviants are also included. IN most cases, a bullet will only jump so far till it gets started crooked, accuracy will be lost forever at this point. IN this case, the throat dia is critical in getting the bullet started straight. If you design a reamer for this situation, then make the throat .0003 over bullet dia., and you will have a very accurate rifle for a long time, with JGS grinding your reamer so that you get what you ask for.
I remember the gunsmith that built my 6-284, which is on a SA 700, telling me he uses a different reamer when chambering a 6-284 for a SA vs LA.
I remember a few years back Kirby Allen doing a good amount of testing on how much difference there was in velocity when a chamber was set up in order to use the maximum amount of usable case capacity versus the same cartridge chamber set up that the bullet was seated down in the case.
The amount of powder used before they pressured out was obviously less in the one with the same bullet seated deeper into the case but the velocity difference between the two was minimal.
I know when I play with seating depths in my QL program and seat a 140gr Berger way out versus the same bullet but seated deep enough to be used in a SA then run both up to max pressure the one with the longer OAL takes about one grain more powder to reach max pressure than does the shorter OAL but the velocity on both is less than 10fps difference.
The big deal is chasing the lands as the leade grows. In my brand new 25/284 I could not seat the bullets to touch the lands and get the bullet out of the rifle without removing the bolt, and this is the case on a lot of VLD bullets in the 284 case.
A good alternative is a 7/08 AI, use new unfired Lake City brass(stronger than Lapua) or Lapua brass.
For accuracy, you have to adjust your seating depth to accommodate the "sweet spot" that produces the best accuracy, in long cases in short actions, this is all but impossible, the 7x57 cases and deviants are also included. IN most cases, a bullet will only jump so far till it gets started crooked, accuracy will be lost forever at this point. IN this case, the throat dia is critical in getting the bullet started straight. If you design a reamer for this situation, then make the throat .0003 over bullet dia., and you will have a very accurate rifle for a long time, with JGS grinding your reamer so that you get what you ask for.
I remember the gunsmith that built my 6-284, which is on a SA 700, telling me he uses a different reamer when chambering a 6-284 for a SA vs LA.
Originally Posted By: boonecountyThanks for the options so far gentlemen. My VTR as I believe all VTR's is a short action. 7mm-08 kinda seems like a bit of a limp noodle compared to the 284 win? Or am I wrong? 6.5x284 is awesome, but already have 260 rem in the stable, and looking for something with more uumpph at range. 7 saum seems great, but what about brass availability?
The 7-08 can be loaded to within 100-200 FPS of the 284 Win...that should't be the only factor considered IMO.
Both are wonderful cartridges, but I have a slight preference to the 7-08...simply that though, a preference. I'd not kick either out of bed for eating crackers.
The 7-08 can be loaded to within 100-200 FPS of the 284 Win...that should't be the only factor considered IMO.
Both are wonderful cartridges, but I have a slight preference to the 7-08...simply that though, a preference. I'd not kick either out of bed for eating crackers.