Shots Fired!

Just as a point of interest, I have been in specific training for and shot targets through windshield glass from both outside and inside the vehicle. When shooting from the inside out as in the video being discussed there is some deflection with the first couple shots. It's not as much as you might think at reasonably close ranges. Within a few yards off the hood of your vehicle, say out to 5-7 yards, combat effective hits can be achieved with the first few rounds. After you get a few holes punched through the glass basically you're good to go. I have done this type training several times, the last time was two years ago. A course titled "Fighting In & Around Vehicles" taught by two very experienced combat SEALS fresh from the sandbox. It was a tremendous class and a ton of both fun and shooting education. Wow, the concussion from an M4 firing 5.56 inside a vehicle!
 
Thanks for the insight, GC. I'd have been more concerned, as you confirmed, about targets farther away from the glass than those up close. I figured after the first group he fired in windshield, remaining shots would not deflect too much, but that was just a WAG.

As said in OP, good end results, but I do think there was some luck involved that apparently no collateral damage. That was a pretty congested area.

Regards,
hm
 
For clarity, my reply was just for information and not to validate the officers choice to shoot from his vehicle in that particular environment. For several reasons I personally think it was a bad choice. However, it's a skill to be familiar with. Several years ago an Oklahoma Highway Patrol Trooper engaged a murderer in a vehicle that was shooting at the trooper in a similar fashion. The Trooper was pursuing the multiple murderer and the killer began shooting at the officer during the chase. The Trooper unlimbered his M4 and returned fire while driving. The very important exception was that they were way out in the boonies on a dirt road late at night with zero traffic or houses nearby.
 
We're on the same page,Gary. Personally, I would be hesitant to shoot with all the traffic, etc. downrange. I'm happy it worked out well and the world is a better place for it, though.

Think I read about the OK incident or a very similar one.

Regards,
hm
 
Originally Posted By: GCJust as a point of interest, I have been in specific training for and shot targets through windshield glass from both outside and inside the vehicle. When shooting from the inside out as in the video being discussed there is some deflection with the first couple shots. It's not as much as you might think at reasonably close ranges. Within a few yards off the hood of your vehicle, say out to 5-7 yards, combat effective hits can be achieved with the first few rounds. After you get a few holes punched through the glass basically you're good to go. I have done this type training several times, the last time was two years ago. A course titled "Fighting In & Around Vehicles" taught by two very experienced combat SEALS fresh from the sandbox. It was a tremendous class and a ton of both fun and shooting education. Wow, the concussion from an M4 firing 5.56 inside a vehicle!

When done correctly it's completely possible to put shots on a man sized target oUT to what ever range you can normaly place shots on target. The le in the video did not do it correctly. He didn't clear a hole in order to fire, he just punched holes in the glass. If you look at the target vehicle you'll notice a complete absence of bullet holes. He is either lacking in the training to do so, which is very likely, or he ignored the training he received. The method isn't one that's usually taught, maybe mentioned but not practiced.

In any case shooting through a windshield is usually reserved for a defensive situation, eg a stop where someone gets out and charges you. Shooting from and at a moving vehicle, in general, is on the do not do list.
 
I have a hard time believing that he hit anywhere near the intended target. I also doubt that those rounds would have had much energy on target IF he had hit the target.
You can hear the fear in his voice. A quick reaction to fire from inside the car, but not an effective solution to anything.
 
Originally Posted By: NdIndyOriginally Posted By: GCJust as a point of interest, I have been in specific training for and shot targets through windshield glass from both outside and inside the vehicle. When shooting from the inside out as in the video being discussed there is some deflection with the first couple shots. It's not as much as you might think at reasonably close ranges. Within a few yards off the hood of your vehicle, say out to 5-7 yards, combat effective hits can be achieved with the first few rounds. After you get a few holes punched through the glass basically you're good to go. I have done this type training several times, the last time was two years ago. A course titled "Fighting In & Around Vehicles" taught by two very experienced combat SEALS fresh from the sandbox. It was a tremendous class and a ton of both fun and shooting education. Wow, the concussion from an M4 firing 5.56 inside a vehicle!

When done correctly it's completely possible to put shots on a man sized target oUT to what ever range you can normaly place shots on target. The le in the video did not do it correctly. He didn't clear a hole in order to fire, he just punched holes in the glass. If you look at the target vehicle you'll notice a complete absence of bullet holes. He is either lacking in the training to do so, which is very likely, or he ignored the training he received. The method isn't one that's usually taught, maybe mentioned but not practiced.

In any case shooting through a windshield is usually reserved for a defensive situation, eg a stop where someone gets out and charges you. Shooting from and at a moving vehicle, in general, is on the do not do list.

And you know this how? What year did you quit rolling a beat?
 
Originally Posted By: littledawgOriginally Posted By: NdIndyOriginally Posted By: GCJust as a point of interest, I have been in specific training for and shot targets through windshield glass from both outside and inside the vehicle. When shooting from the inside out as in the video being discussed there is some deflection with the first couple shots. It's not as much as you might think at reasonably close ranges. Within a few yards off the hood of your vehicle, say out to 5-7 yards, combat effective hits can be achieved with the first few rounds. After you get a few holes punched through the glass basically you're good to go. I have done this type training several times, the last time was two years ago. A course titled "Fighting In & Around Vehicles" taught by two very experienced combat SEALS fresh from the sandbox. It was a tremendous class and a ton of both fun and shooting education. Wow, the concussion from an M4 firing 5.56 inside a vehicle!

When done correctly it's completely possible to put shots on a man sized target oUT to what ever range you can normaly place shots on target. The le in the video did not do it correctly. He didn't clear a hole in order to fire, he just punched holes in the glass. If you look at the target vehicle you'll notice a complete absence of bullet holes. He is either lacking in the training to do so, which is very likely, or he ignored the training he received. The method isn't one that's usually taught, maybe mentioned but not practiced.

In any case shooting through a windshield is usually reserved for a defensive situation, eg a stop where someone gets out and charges you. Shooting from and at a moving vehicle, in general, is on the do not do list.

And you know this how? What year did you quit rolling a beat?
2005, carried an expert rating with handguns and 1 of 10 designated marksman in the dept. Also specialised in arson, crime scene investigation and k9 agitator(the guy who fights the dogs). you?

Fwiw, we never called it "a beat".
 
28 years and still going.. A lot has changed in the last 13-15 years. My agency routinely trains shooting through windshields from the driver seat. Granted, we don't train from a moving vehicle, or at a moving vehicle, but it is part of their training. I presume an agency the size of Las Vegas has highly trained officers. I'm not saying they are perfect, but they are a premier law enforcement agency. The latest and greatest Virtra trainers have also taken firearms, taser, pepper spray, and AR-15, training to the next level, in addition to simmmunition weapons, which was probably around in 2005.

I'm not confident enough in my ability to take those shots, but I don't know to what level that particular officer is trained. For all we know he could be a former military hotshot who holds a national combat pistol championship, or maybe he just got off field training the day before this incident.

I'm not saying he is right or wrong, I do know he took care of business without any civilians getting hurt. I think there needs to be some recognition that the kids rolling black and whites today are better educated, equipped, and trained. The policy manual of the 1980-90's and even early 2000's isn't applicable in most agencies today. It is a different world, and never before have officers been held to a higher standard. I feel as law enforcement officers (current or retired), we should reserve our judgment until the facts are fully known and presented in the proper context. We owe them that....
 
We didn't train actually shooting through the glass, too expensive. But the concept holds. Muzzle against the glass, 2-3 shots to clear a hole to actually shoot through and the subsequent shots are unfettered and on target. Muzzle off the glass and shooting in various areas, and if you're lucky you have bullet tracks on your hood.

Inside out, shots go way low. Outside in, way high.

Las Vegas may have highly trained, but that doesn't mean you're highly trained because that's where you work.
 
Yeah, but have you seen the way cops shoot? 21 shots fired, 3 hits, and none fatal! Glass probably put him on terget
scared.gif
Originally Posted By: hm1996Originally Posted By: NdIndyYep, one of the first things I thought when I saw it. The only thing he's doing is defening himself and putting rounds "somewhere". They're very unlikely going anywhere close to his target.

Yep, no telling which way bullets were deflected by the glass. Not to mention the possibility of glass particles being blown in his own eyes.

Regards,
hm
 
Police have an open season on dogs, just type "cop shoots dog" into youtube and it's amazing what they get away with.

This is a shooting that I find particularly insane. https://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192111974.html


It involves 2 gamers getting in a fight online, one way or another gamer #1 gives gamer #2 a random address and gamer #2 calls police saying there's been a murder at the address. Cops show up to the random address and kill the owner, father of two, right after he opens the door with no idea what's going on. Of course, cop got off scot free. That could happen to anyone at any time, 20 cops outside your door with guns drawn, they demand you open the door, then they kill you....
 
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People love to pot shoot cops, either literally or from the computer. And some cops make theirselves good targets.
 
Originally Posted By: littledawgA little more background on the detail: https://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article208738719.html

I'm curious Mr. Knocker; Don't play armchair quarterback with the facts as they are known now, only the facts known at the time of the shooting; the exact information provided at that specific time; what should happen to the officer?

I looked into what happened...

"He said officers who were closer to Finch thought he reached down to pull up his pants."

The cop was a trigger happy gunman, they should show some restraint. Every officer there was behind cover or out of his direct site, I'm sure every officer there had armor on and the nearest cop in the innocent man's site was probably more than 50 yards away. There was who knows how many guns aimed at one guy and one lunatic shot him before they saw any gun at all... because there was none, that's cowardice or sociopathic murder right there, he was ether terrified, itching to shoot someone or wanted to be the hero of the PD.

An armed goon squad shows up to an innocent man's home completely ignorant to the situation and they kill him for nothing... or rather for a split second a trigger happy gunman above the law couldn't see his hand. That's the making of a tyrannical government force in our country and no one that thinks they support our constitution should stand up for this barbarism. How is blindly supporting a militarized police force that's clearly above the law any different than supporting socialism or gun control?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Wichita_swatting#Parties_involved

Shooter

Justin Rapp, Officer, Wichita Police Department; Rapp initially claimed he saw a gun but testified in May 2018 that he merely saw Finch make a motion with his hand.
 
Originally Posted By: NdIndyOriginally Posted By: littledawgA little more background on the detail: https://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article208738719.html

I'm curious Mr. Knocker; Don't play armchair quarterback with the facts as they are known now, only the facts known at the time of the shooting; the exact information provided at that specific time; what should happen to the officer?

Don't feed the troll.

It’s a Luciferian conspiracy.
They’re hiding in plain sight.

*
 
Yeah... Maybe the government isn't trying to give law enforcement as much power possible, and maybe the democrats aren't trying to take our guns...
 
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