Scope + Red dot ?

Vent_O_Later

Vent_O_Later

New member
I'm in the process of building a light weight ar, and want to mount a compact scope with a red dot mounted on top, before I go buy the stuff I need to know what works for you guys. What mount, red dot site....... I don't know were to start.
 
While I personally dont have any experience with this, I have done a little research because I was looking into the same question. I decided to go with the Burris PEPR mount and my next optics purchase will be a burris fastfire to top it off. It seems to be a popular combo....
 
The Burris PEPR, the swfa ssalt, if it comes back, and the Primary Arms AR15 Mount all come with picatinny rails on top. You can mount on top of the scope, or at a 45 degree angle from the scope on the scope, on the picatinny scope rail, or on the handguard. I will be going handguard. on top of the scope just seems like too much distance from sight to barrel, especially considering the distance the red dot will be sighted in at.
 
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It seems to me that if you have it mounted at a 45 it would only be good at one exact yardage, you could be dead on @ 50y but way off @ say 100y........ I don't know....could someone explain?
 
mounted at a 45/90 degree angle would be incredibly difficult to use. You could play with it until it was sighted in at one specific distance. This would not be easy, instead of simply adjusting up/down and left/right each adjustment would have to be a combination of both dials. However at any other distance than whats sighted in your shots would start to land side to side as well as up and down. When the scope is mounted on top the two planes are on the same axis as gravity and you only need to adjust for drop. Side to side you would need to adjust not only for drop but compensate for the scope angle in comparison to "striaght" or the plane that the bullet follows down the barrel and to the target...

I dont know if that makes any sense when you read it... it was my best attempt
 
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Quote:This would not be easy, instead of simply adjusting up/down and left/right each adjustment would have to be a combination of both dials. However at any other distance than whats sighted in your shots would start to land side to side as well as up and down.

Have been thinking about mounting a red dot 45* to the right of my scope for close running shots. In use, I would cant the rifle 45* left to bring the red dot top center and would sight rifle in at same angle. This would make sight adjustments and bullet drop same for both the scope and red dot, if that makes sense.

Still haven't made up my mind if I want the added bulk on my rifle but suppose one could remove the red dot and install it when a stand in close cover indicates possibility of a close running shot.

Regards,
hm
 
Yes if you can mount the red dot perpendicular to the ground it would make sighting in easier...

BUT, Think about the line from your scope to the target vs the straight line (forget gravity for a min) your bullet travels. If you mounted the red dot on the left hand side of your gun and sighted in at 50yds, the line would travel from say 2" left to dead center at 50 and right 2" at 100. Anything past 50 yards you would have hold left as the scope would now be looking to the right of the target... factor in wind drift and bullet drop and I think it would be more trouble than the setup is worth...

What is the main goal here? to have a magnified red dot? or to have a red dot for upclose and optics for downrange? there may be another way to do what you want...
 
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I was afraid my explanation was lacking in clarity.
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Will see if I can do a better job. First, in answer to your last question, the purpose is to have a scope for longer shots and the red dot (zero magnification)for close running shots.

For shots using the scope, rifle is held vertical, as usual, so bullet path (on a calm day) would be directly above or below line of sight.

With the red dot mounted to the (shooter's)right of the scope @ 45* angle to the scope, the rifle would be canted 45* to the opposite direction when shooting(shooters left) when using the red dot sight, thus placing the red dot sight directly above the bore of the rifle (same position as regular scope is mounted when rifle held vertically). The relationship to the bore/sight would be the same with either scope (held vertically) or red dot sight (held @ 45* left cant). Sighting in would be accomplished the same with either scope or red dot, as well. The red dot would, of course be mounted so as to have the elevation knob at 12 o'clock w/rifle held @ 45* left cant so that elevation/windage changes would affect POI in normal manner.

Originally Posted By: JTrottaNYYes if you can mount the red dot perpendicular to the ground it would make sighting in easier...

BUT, Think about the line from your scope to the target vs the straight line (forget gravity for a min) your bullet travels. If you mounted the red dot on the left hand side of your gun and sighted in at 50yds, the line would travel from say 2" left to dead center at 50 and right 2" at 100. Anything past 50 yards you would have hold left as the scope would now be looking to the right of the target... factor in wind drift and bullet drop and I think it would be more trouble than the setup is worth...

What is the main goal here? to have a magnified red dot? or to have a red dot for upclose and optics for downrange? there may be another way to do what you want...

Whew! I knew I didn't do a very good job the first time
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.

Regards,
hm
 
I got you HM... hey to each his own. Maybe your onto somthing revolutionary, but for me it seems like too much work. I would just look into somthing like the Burris link posted above... Should someone try the 45* method I would def be interested to see how it works out and how hard it is to shoot with the gun tilted off to the side!!

Im sorry but all I can think of is Steve Carrell in the movie Date Night when the guy turns the hand gun sideways "Kill shot, thats a kill shot!"
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Quote: how hard it is to shoot with the gun tilted off to the side!!

I'm a bit concerned about that, as well. Shot competition for over 20 years and was always taught never cant a rifle, so might be a bit hard to change this old dog's tricks
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. I will say that when shooting my target bolt gun w/iron sights, I did cant the rifle a tad to get square behing the sights and as long as you cant it the same each time, good things happen
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.

That is a nice setup Burris has but I think the fastfire would be a hair too high to achieve any cheek weld. Probably not as much of an issue w/reflex sight as paralax not supposed to affect POI.

I have an extra Millet red dot so may look for a 45* mount and give it a test drive. If I do, will let ya know how it works.

Rabon:
Just noticed your post; the Trijicon looks like a nice sight, but a bit out of my price range.

Regards,
hm
 
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Canting is very acceptable in high level competion now. But the people doing it are well trained in the details of it.
It does work but requires a learning curve.

Jack
 
Originally Posted By: Jack RobertsCanting is very acceptable in high level competion now. But the people doing it are well trained in the details of it.
It does work but requires a learning curve.

Jack

Yep, giving away my age, but lots of things are taught today that were verboten when I first started shooting competition, and scores just keep getting better
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.

Regards,
hm
 
In fact, there are a number of mounting options designed specifically to allow a scope + a holo sight, usually at 45* off the right side. It's fairly common in the CQC tactical combat community.

It does kind of age (some of) us though doesn't it?
 
IF you are worried about getting the cant right, mount an anti-cant device on the 45 degree red dot, and just practice rolling the gun. The level will be right in your eye, so it wouldn't be that hard to practice with. Take it off, or leave it on when you go shoot.
 
Quote:mounted at a 45/90 degree angle would be incredibly difficult to use Not So

Several guys that I've shot competition with in the Open class have started setting up their optics with a secondary red dot...

Considering that speed as well as accuracy are paramount in the events, they practice quite a bit...

Most mount right next to the scope, or just in front of it using something similar to the 45* mount made by Yankee Hill Machine that attached to the flat top rail or a small rail on the front of the handguard...The targets they are used for are generally really close..so your parallax is not that critical with the red dot..

In our competitions, there are numerous targets at varying distances and in some cases, you are running through an obstacle course with targets that are within 5-10 feet and hidden behind 55gal barrels...so you don't have time to adjust your sighting picture to make up for the 2.5" scope height and it's faster and easier to roll the rifle a couple of degrees to hit the "A" zones (3"x5") with one quick shot, otherwise, you have to hit any other target zone with two shots for it to count...

It's not unusual to have a series targets distanced from 10' on out to 125 yards on a single stage, so you don't have time to make any scope adjustments...The following pics are from the 2006 DPMS Three Gun Match...

Close targets (Black areas are "Hard Cover" so hits there don't count
DPMSRifelSpeedTargets.jpg


Distant Targets (white targets are "No Shoot")
DPMSLongDistanceRifle.jpg


Odd Shooting Platforms
BoatPlatform.jpg

ShotguninBoat.jpg


Did you ever try shooting shotgun slugs from a rocking pontoon boat on water??
 
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I plan on doing this for this winter as well. I should have my TNVC mount at my door step today. It attaches to the scope tube and I'll run a small Bushnell red dot off the side at a 45. My primary optic will be my 2.5-10x40 Elite 4200.

I figure I can get 50 or 40 yards and less with the red dot after sighting in with a 25 yards zero.

I'll see if I can snap some photos and post them tonight.
 
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