Removing Case Neck Donuts?

I agree with everything you stated Cat.

I'm with Furhunter on this, in that I measure the outside diameter of a loaded, and annealed, neck. Then subtract .002 for my bushing size. In an unscientific sense that would be .002 neck tension. These are the tools most of us work with in the general reloading world. Thats all.

In a scientific sense, it would be interesting to know how that .002 smaller bushing equates to tension in a annealed neck. Un annealed necks would be pointless because spring back would be all over the map.

It would also be interesting to know how much neck tension actually effects accuracy and at what amounts.

All I know is that my method of getting .002 or there abouts, neck tension work very well in my world, and annealing is everything.
 
I remeasured and realized that I was actually at .002. I measured a sized case and then a fired case, instead of a loaded one. Duh.
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: JPH sand hillsinside neck turning will solve the issue.

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And how do you inside neck turn?



It never fails to amaze me, the large number of people that will totally fabricate a false answer to a question and then run away and hide when you ask them to explain it.

What a punk!!

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Cat, why don't you recommend the Type S bushing die? Does the body sleeve make a large difference or do you like to partially size the neck?
 
Originally Posted By: Verminator2Cat, why don't you recommend the Type S bushing die? Does the body sleeve make a large difference or do you like to partially size the neck?

OK... here is what it is. And it makes no difference whether you are sizing the whole neck or part of the neck - it's all the same same.

I started using "S" bushing dies right from a looong time ago.

Now, use your mind and picture what I am talking about as I go.

When you have a case (like the 22-250), and you run it up into a neck size die (either a plain die, or a bushing "S" die)... the case has taper, so it goes in but does not touch ANYTHING... until the mouth hits either the base of the dies shoulder/neck junction, OR the entrance to the bushing - at this point, the case is still NOT touching anything.

So... you could actually cut away the whole body of the die, and just have the shoulder and neck part in the press, or JUST THE NECK PART... and the case would touch the same thing, just the neck or bushing - are you still with me?

OK... now, since the case does not touch anything and the neck gets sized without support or guidance, then if the neck is not uniform in thickness, or the anneal is not uniform, the thin (or softer) part of the neck will move more than the thick/hard side of the neck.

So, Voila - we just made run-out that was not there before we neck sized the case.

Now, I will be the first one to admit that none of this occurred to me for a long time - I was happy as a pig in poop, just sizing away with my "S" dies thinking that I had the best that there was. I got run-out, but thought that "some run-out" was inevitable.

I had seen the "Comp bushing Neck Sizers" in the catalogue, but I thought they were the same as a bushing "S" die but with a micrometer, and who needs a micrometer to set the sizing depth of a neck - not moi!

Then I bought a 6mmBR benchrest rifle, and the only dies I could find in stock was a complete Comp set. So I bit the bullet and bought it. Later, when I checked my cases for run out, I was getting 1/2 a thou (0.0005"), which is unheard of... and not a few cases, but all of them.

So I gave it some thought and here is why it is so freakin' good.

In the "S" die, nothing supports or aligns the neck, even at the end of the stroke. You could actually put the bushing up there without a die, and it would work the same.

In the comp bushing neck die, the shoulder is a male cone, and the floating sleeve is a female cone - the case goes up into the sleeve and the shoulder and neck are FORCED into alignment with the axis of the die, BEFORE the bushing even touches the case.

Once the case is in there, with spring pressure forcing it in tight, no side force can move the case out of alignment because of the "Cone in cone" arrangement.

So, in effect, the case is locked in the sleeve, concentric with the axis, and the bushing is "lowered" down down onto the neck, which cannot move off the axis, no matter what.

So, now I only get Comp Busing Neck Sizers for high accuracy rifles if they are available.. if not, I get the bushing "S" dies.

Make sense???

 
Yeah that makes perfect sense! What you were talking about with the S dies is why I started using the Lee collet, because I had heard that they don't cause much runout. I gave my process some more thought and realized that the body die should probably be my first step, rather than my second. So beyond overworking my cases, I'm probably also causing more problems there.

As far as annealing goes. What I found on 6mmBR.com wanted me to buy some annealing kit. Is there a way around this for a broke college kid? If I can chuck cases up in a drill,set up a propane torch with some tempilaq, and dump them in a bucket of water, would that work?

I appreciate all the info.
 
Originally Posted By: Verminator2Yeah that makes perfect sense! What you were talking about with the S dies is why I started using the Lee collet, because I had heard that they don't cause much runout. I gave my process some more thought and realized that the body die should probably be my first step, rather than my second. So beyond overworking my cases, I'm probably also causing more problems there.

As far as annealing goes. What I found on 6mmBR.com wanted me to buy some annealing kit. Is there a way around this for a broke college kid? If I can chuck cases up in a drill,set up a propane torch with some tempilaq, and dump them in a bucket of water, would that work?

I appreciate all the info.



With a drill and socket and a propane torch in the dark heated to a glow then dumped on to crinkled up foil or dumped into cleaning solution is how I do it. Either way works fine.
 
Originally Posted By: SmokelessWhat is your critique of Forster neck bushing dies?

Just curious about your thoughts.

I am looking for an excuse to get one, but haven't as yet - I am not a "bump" fan... I like crush.
 
Originally Posted By: Verminator2
As far as annealing goes. What I found on 6mmBR.com wanted me to buy some annealing kit. Is there a way around this for a broke college kid? If I can chuck cases up in a drill, set up a propane torch with some tempilaq, and dump them in a bucket of water, would that work?

I appreciate all the info.

Don't waste time with tempilaq.

I put down a folded cloth (dish towel size) and on top of that, I put two layers of lightly crumpled aluminum foil so the hot case necks won't get damaged or burn anything.

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I use a small tipped Propane torch in the short-fat cylinders (the ones that won't tip over).

Put just the neck, in the tip of the flame until it turns dark red... leave it there for 3 or 4 seconds.

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Do NOT pay attention to the color of the brass - it can be very deceiving.

These two sets of cases were from the same manufacturer, same caliber, annealed at the same temperature, for the same time, yet look completely different. They were two different lot numbers, bought a few years apart - brass formulas DO vary, and that causes the colors to vary.

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It is not expensive to anneal - you do NOT have to drop them in water... that is myth #847


.
 
Originally Posted By: Verminator2

As far as annealing goes. What I found on 6mmBR.com wanted me to buy some annealing kit. Is there a way around this for a broke college kid? If I can chuck cases up in a drill,set up a propane torch with some tempilaq, and dump them in a bucket of water, would that work?

I appreciate all the info.

That would work fine you can skip the water and tempilaq also make your own shell holder from a socket or Custom reloading tools makes or used to make a real nice case holder to spin them in a drill I used them before I got the Bench source annealing machine, If I can find them I'll send them to you if your interested in them (I remember being a broke college kid) I don't use them any more anyway if you want to try them pm me your shipping address

Typing same time as cat only much slower and he has nice pictures
 
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If you pay attention and maybe turn the lights down you will see the flame begin to turn green. That's when it's done.
 
Originally Posted By: CastIf you pay attention and maybe turn the lights down you will see the flame begin to turn green. That's when it's done.


The flame can turn green for many reasons, but mostly because of the ash in the neck - green flame is NOT an indicator of when the case neck is done.

In fact, I have annealed thousands and thousands of cases, and it is rare to see one make a green flame... and sometimes, it does it right away.
 
Could be, dunno. Just works that way for me. I use tempilac just to get setup and check myself and have noticed the green flame agreeing with the tempilac. That's actually what I advise if OP can afford it, plus the thick aluminum case holders they include in the kit are better heat sinks than a deep socket.

Cat I wish I had your annealer, do you anneal for hire?
 
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Originally Posted By: CatShooter
Put just the neck, in the tip of the flame until it turns dark red... leave it there for 3 or 4 seconds.

Do NOT pay attention to the color of the brass - it can be very deceiving.

Just to clarify, when the tip of the flame turns dark red leave the brass for another 3 to 4 seconds? The 6mmbr site said that when the case neck is at a red heat, it's being over-annealed.

Rich, thanks for the kind offer! I'll send you a PM here shortly.
 
Originally Posted By: Verminator2Originally Posted By: CatShooter
Put just the neck, in the tip of the flame until it turns dark red... leave it there for 3 or 4 seconds.

Do NOT pay attention to the color of the brass - it can be very deceiving.

Just to clarify, when the tip of the flame turns dark red leave the brass for another 3 to 4 seconds? The 6mmbr site said that when the case neck is at a red heat, it's being over-annealed.



I know what the 6mmBR site says. Those folks have no idea what they are talking about.

They read something, and pass it on without ever even trying what they talk about... never happens here, does it??
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Go here and read my posts - it is about half way down the page.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3841470.15


I use a $2,500 tool to measure neck and base hardness - they use nothing, and scream that the sky is falling.


It is the case neck that turns dark red, not the flame... the flame will stay light blue.
 
I'm currently doing 338 formed from LC 308 brass. I measure the needed time using tempilac, but it's always the same. Using a small quiet but focused flame I spin it slowly in a battery drill and deep socket. I drop the brass in the deep socket with tweezers and count to 5 seconds and pick it out and drop it in a bowl of water just so I don't burn myself when flailing around on the gun bench looking for something. The LC brass gives off a very slight green flame occasionally just as I pluck it out and drop it in the bowl, but CS is right, don't do that or you will over heat it. The brass has just started to turn a dull red color when it's done. You'll find your way, just be conservative at first and don't over do it.
 
So I tried it out today with a drill/deep socket and propane torch. The good news is that the 'donuts' or whatever tight spot I had in the case neck is fixed. However, I can't seem to reach that dark red glow, no matter how long I leave them in the flame or how close to the torch I get. (Don't worry, I'm testing it on trash brass, just to get a feel for it.) The test brass has been Winchester and old Lapua .243 AI cases. Any ideas?
 
Turn up the flame a bit. IIRC, my flame was maybe 2 1/2" long and the case neck was against the inside blue flame cone tip.
 
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