I watched the guys at the Berger S.W. National shoot X's at 600 yards Not 10's but X's. That's a .5 moa target. One guy shot 23 X's in a row to set a National Record. Of course he wasn't shooting a 20 cal. rifle. It can be done, and as long as you are not shooting for food, what's the harm. I say, good luck to you and enjoy the hunt. Don't know how you breath at 8,00 feet, I live at 500 feet and can't go that high.
Ptarmigan rifle
- Thread starter nlol
- Start date
Best shooters in the world, hand selected truck axle barrels, top of the line optics, custom receivers, triggers you can detonate with your thoughts, known distances and wind, spotters, pit crews, $1000 bipods, BCs higher than credit scores.....
You're correct, sounds a lot like bird hunting, in the field, with a 39 BK. I stand corrected.
You're correct, sounds a lot like bird hunting, in the field, with a 39 BK. I stand corrected.
Rock Knocker
Active member
Talk to the guys shooting rock chucks at 600 to 1000 yards....
OldTurtle
Moderator - Deceased
I've been shooting the .204 for over 10 years, sometimes at long distances...Your big problem with be the ability to see the target through a higher powered optic (18x and above) due to the mirage factor, then you will have a problem with the lack of bullet weight, if any breeze exists, when you get past 300 yards...I'm not saying it can't be worked out with a lot of practice, but cold bore shooting is it's own animal...
Personally, I would be looking at a 6.5 Creedmore with the 142g Sierra Match Kings since they have a Ballistic Coefficient of .600+...Their 123grs even have a BC of .500+...While wind will never be your friend, the heavier bullet and higher BC will help you tame it a little....
Personally, I would be looking at a 6.5 Creedmore with the 142g Sierra Match Kings since they have a Ballistic Coefficient of .600+...Their 123grs even have a BC of .500+...While wind will never be your friend, the heavier bullet and higher BC will help you tame it a little....
tripod3
New member
The issue I see is field conditions amplified by distance.
It has been legal here all my life to hunt grouse with rifle, shotgun, pistol, or even in .22.
I myself have killed 2 in one head shot with a .300 WM Sauer after my friend missed with a .338 WM Remington so he had to retrieve.
Grouse have been an almost tradition hunt all my lifetime.
The WDFW says, and don't laugh, "If your weapon of choice for grouse hunting is a rifle, handgun or bow, of course, you’re not interested in a moving target as much as a still one. It should go without saying that if you’re trying to collect a little camp meat with your deer rifle, you’ll be looking for a head shot, and it’s a very small target. Find a rest of some kind or it’s a tough shot if the bird is any distance away. The good news, though, is that a near miss may be enough to stun him and bring him to the ground. Most of the hunters who shoot their grouse with a .22 also seem to prefer head shots, but others insist that body shots with a small caliber gun don’t really have a big impact on the quality or the quantity of the resultant table fare."
It has been legal here all my life to hunt grouse with rifle, shotgun, pistol, or even in .22.
I myself have killed 2 in one head shot with a .300 WM Sauer after my friend missed with a .338 WM Remington so he had to retrieve.
Grouse have been an almost tradition hunt all my lifetime.
The WDFW says, and don't laugh, "If your weapon of choice for grouse hunting is a rifle, handgun or bow, of course, you’re not interested in a moving target as much as a still one. It should go without saying that if you’re trying to collect a little camp meat with your deer rifle, you’ll be looking for a head shot, and it’s a very small target. Find a rest of some kind or it’s a tough shot if the bird is any distance away. The good news, though, is that a near miss may be enough to stun him and bring him to the ground. Most of the hunters who shoot their grouse with a .22 also seem to prefer head shots, but others insist that body shots with a small caliber gun don’t really have a big impact on the quality or the quantity of the resultant table fare."
Originally Posted By: nlol
Yep, a custom rifle seems impossible. Even a 'semi-custom' unlikely, but my chances increase if I'm brand flexible.
.4MOA or better, from a factory rifle…do you even reload??
And holding that to 250+ yards with a 20 caliber?
I hesitate to give serious advice because I can't take the original question very seriously. But you need to think 6mm or even 6.5mm, take more of the wind out of the equation.
Throw a Shilen or similar quality prefit on a Savage action, and we can have a more serious conversation. With optimized reloads.
Yep, a custom rifle seems impossible. Even a 'semi-custom' unlikely, but my chances increase if I'm brand flexible.
.4MOA or better, from a factory rifle…do you even reload??
And holding that to 250+ yards with a 20 caliber?
I hesitate to give serious advice because I can't take the original question very seriously. But you need to think 6mm or even 6.5mm, take more of the wind out of the equation.
Throw a Shilen or similar quality prefit on a Savage action, and we can have a more serious conversation. With optimized reloads.
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Rock Knocker
Active member
.4MOA? The targets he is trying to hit around more around 1MOA... easy
Rock Knocker
Active member
1" is extreme but the bird's heads are going to be a larger targets than that and have more windage forgiveness than elevation.
Rock Knocker
Active member
We've got a member here with a chuck kill at 1400 yards, with a 243 if I remember correct(savage action at that, I believe). No one gave him heck for trying.
I said I wouldn't comment, but what the heck, even John Wayne changes his mind once in a while.
John Wayne Quote
Originally Posted By: nlol
I want a rifle that will hit a 1" circle (ptarmigan head) to 250 yards or beyond, day-to-day, month-to-month.
I'm thinking one of the .20's, probably, the .204 Ruger for simplicity, is a good caliber - better than a 22-250, and a 6 mm is over-kill. Hunting will mostly be between 4-8,000 feet, probably works well
Originally Posted By: GLShooter Quote: I want a rifle that will hit a 1" circle (ptarmigan head) to 250 yards or beyond, day-to-day, month-to-month.
As Greg said, 1"circle @ 250 yds = .4 moa. A rifle capable of shooting .4 moa off a bench is not beyond reason, but @ 250 yards, better calibers are available and a Ballistic Coefficient of 0.275 (40 grain VMAX) would not be my first choice.
Originally Posted By: nlol
Load devlopment will be done at about 700' altitude. I've got a selection of other bullets on hand for load development - whatever shoots best.
The rifle itself though... 10 pounds bare, I'm greatly deterred - roughly 13 pounds all up, plus everything else for a 5-10 mile walking hunt is more weight than I want for this
And then there's the field positions after a 5-10 mile hike @ elevations to 8000 ft. to contend with.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I live probably 30' above sea level and at age 64 & 65 made two trips to Colorado elk hunting (admittedly a bit higher than 8000' and at that time I had only 60% of my lung capacity) but I guarantee I couldn't have walked 50 yards and held 4 moa, let alone .4 prior to an 8 hour nap, and I had been running 40 flights of stairs 5 days/week for a couple of months prior.
Guess my advice, for what it's worth, is get the best rifle you can lay your hands on (which preferably shoots a bullet w/better BC than .275) practice, practice, practice, and in your spare time you could do a few aerobic exercises...hey, it can't hurt.
Above all, enjoy your hunt.
Regards,
hm
John Wayne Quote
Originally Posted By: nlol
I want a rifle that will hit a 1" circle (ptarmigan head) to 250 yards or beyond, day-to-day, month-to-month.
I'm thinking one of the .20's, probably, the .204 Ruger for simplicity, is a good caliber - better than a 22-250, and a 6 mm is over-kill. Hunting will mostly be between 4-8,000 feet, probably works well
Originally Posted By: GLShooter Quote: I want a rifle that will hit a 1" circle (ptarmigan head) to 250 yards or beyond, day-to-day, month-to-month.
As Greg said, 1"circle @ 250 yds = .4 moa. A rifle capable of shooting .4 moa off a bench is not beyond reason, but @ 250 yards, better calibers are available and a Ballistic Coefficient of 0.275 (40 grain VMAX) would not be my first choice.
Originally Posted By: nlol
Load devlopment will be done at about 700' altitude. I've got a selection of other bullets on hand for load development - whatever shoots best.
The rifle itself though... 10 pounds bare, I'm greatly deterred - roughly 13 pounds all up, plus everything else for a 5-10 mile walking hunt is more weight than I want for this
And then there's the field positions after a 5-10 mile hike @ elevations to 8000 ft. to contend with.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I live probably 30' above sea level and at age 64 & 65 made two trips to Colorado elk hunting (admittedly a bit higher than 8000' and at that time I had only 60% of my lung capacity) but I guarantee I couldn't have walked 50 yards and held 4 moa, let alone .4 prior to an 8 hour nap, and I had been running 40 flights of stairs 5 days/week for a couple of months prior.
Guess my advice, for what it's worth, is get the best rifle you can lay your hands on (which preferably shoots a bullet w/better BC than .275) practice, practice, practice, and in your spare time you could do a few aerobic exercises...hey, it can't hurt.
Regards,
hm
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Hmmm, well, for the few of you that have taken me seriously-and even half seriously - thanks. The rest of you seem to want to imagine me shooting at only 250 yards and the toughest of conditions. Everything I've said though denies that that is true.
Since there is interest in the hunting:
At 8,000' I find flat ground requires a bit more breath, but no issue. It does slow steep climbs. But nothing in the area goes much above that. It's kinda like the shooting - the extreme of the area - not the norm. Valley bottoms run up from about 2,000'. This is Yukon Territory. I've spent long summers there for more than 10 years. Have my Canadian PAL.
Four kinds of grouse. Most common are spruce. Locals ride the old mining roads on quads and shoot them on the ground. Ruffed grouse are available in bottom lands throughout the Yukon River drainage - generally not plentiful, but from time to time ... There are sharp tail, and I've shot a few. I've never found nor heard of them in significant concentratioms. Blue grouse - quite large - generally habitat around tree line. I've never found them in huntable numbers - but last year heard a reliable story, and the location. I've never seen other the willow and rock ptarmigan. In the right areas they exist in good numbers. Locals hunt them as they hunt spruce grouse. Bird season opens first September. There some limits on some of the species, but the combined daily limit on grouse is 10 and ptarmigan another 10. My bird dog and I greatly enjoy the wing shooting, but every now and then, when/where they are especially plentiful, I enjoy a .22 head shooting hunt. Ptarmigan, on open ground seldom let dog or me get closer than about 75 yards - that's what's generated my interest in a dedicated rig. Other small game - all legal year round and good eating are arctic ground squirrel, snow shoe hare, and porcupine. A non-resident season license is about $25 cdn. Big game hunting requires a guide.
A word on ballistics: bullet weight means nothing to drop or wind drift. Only BC and velocity count. Yes, as we generally see the world, high BC bullets are generally heavier - but not necessarily. Yes, absolutely there are many rifles of larger caliber, that have much much better wind drift than a 20. Interestingly- at least to me, and generally in 'varmint' loads - the .204 has less wind drift than a .22-250 or 223. One thing I really like about the .204 over a heavier caliber is the improved likelihood of seeing the bullet impact and maintaining better situational awareness for follow-up and shifting targets.
For those that made constructive comments - Thank You. I'm surprised some other rifles haven't yet been named. I'll be surprised if there aren't more suggestions ( and I hope for them) for something I'm unaware of or haven't considered.
Since there is interest in the hunting:
At 8,000' I find flat ground requires a bit more breath, but no issue. It does slow steep climbs. But nothing in the area goes much above that. It's kinda like the shooting - the extreme of the area - not the norm. Valley bottoms run up from about 2,000'. This is Yukon Territory. I've spent long summers there for more than 10 years. Have my Canadian PAL.
Four kinds of grouse. Most common are spruce. Locals ride the old mining roads on quads and shoot them on the ground. Ruffed grouse are available in bottom lands throughout the Yukon River drainage - generally not plentiful, but from time to time ... There are sharp tail, and I've shot a few. I've never found nor heard of them in significant concentratioms. Blue grouse - quite large - generally habitat around tree line. I've never found them in huntable numbers - but last year heard a reliable story, and the location. I've never seen other the willow and rock ptarmigan. In the right areas they exist in good numbers. Locals hunt them as they hunt spruce grouse. Bird season opens first September. There some limits on some of the species, but the combined daily limit on grouse is 10 and ptarmigan another 10. My bird dog and I greatly enjoy the wing shooting, but every now and then, when/where they are especially plentiful, I enjoy a .22 head shooting hunt. Ptarmigan, on open ground seldom let dog or me get closer than about 75 yards - that's what's generated my interest in a dedicated rig. Other small game - all legal year round and good eating are arctic ground squirrel, snow shoe hare, and porcupine. A non-resident season license is about $25 cdn. Big game hunting requires a guide.
A word on ballistics: bullet weight means nothing to drop or wind drift. Only BC and velocity count. Yes, as we generally see the world, high BC bullets are generally heavier - but not necessarily. Yes, absolutely there are many rifles of larger caliber, that have much much better wind drift than a 20. Interestingly- at least to me, and generally in 'varmint' loads - the .204 has less wind drift than a .22-250 or 223. One thing I really like about the .204 over a heavier caliber is the improved likelihood of seeing the bullet impact and maintaining better situational awareness for follow-up and shifting targets.
For those that made constructive comments - Thank You. I'm surprised some other rifles haven't yet been named. I'll be surprised if there aren't more suggestions ( and I hope for them) for something I'm unaware of or haven't considered.
Rock Knocker
Active member
What you're looking for is achievable. Price, accuracy and time frame. You're going to have to do some reloading though.
Sounds like a fun hunt and a heck of a challenge. Remember, pictures or it didn't happen!
Sounds like a fun hunt and a heck of a challenge. Remember, pictures or it didn't happen!
bubbabassin45
New member
I've hunted sharptails and turkeys similar in Montana on an Indian reservation doing what you want to do. I've used a 204 ruger 17 hmr 17 Remington and 17 hornet. I've not pushed it to 250 yards but have shot some turkeys in the head at around 180 yards. My favorite is the 17 hornet. I have a cz with the single set trigger which improves my shooting a bunch. I'm not the greatest shooter but I do alright. The key is getting a good rest you can hold steady with. The nice thing about head shooting is it's either a hit or a miss and not having to worry about biting into a bb, lol. Pretty hard to injure one while head shooting. Hunting rabbits this way is fun too. Good luck with whatever caliber you decide on.
Reloading: I've bought brass and bullets when I found good prices - have a couple suitable powders on hand but will add 8208 xbr for testing, plus the dies. I also have yet to buy the appropriate cleaning supplies - this will be my first 'sub' caliber firearm. The early May goal allows time for load development.
Pictures - I can perhaps find a few that hint at the beauty of the area - later this week perhaps.
So, come on guys - if you wanted to get this right the first time, what rifle would you choose?
Pictures - I can perhaps find a few that hint at the beauty of the area - later this week perhaps.
So, come on guys - if you wanted to get this right the first time, what rifle would you choose?
Rock Knocker
Active member
Savage action, prefit Criterion or Shilen barrel and a good aftermarket stock. I would go with a stock that has an aluminum bedding block.
You likely won't able to buy anything off the shelf more accurate than that combo and stay within your budget. And to build any other custom rifle would take you much longer.
You likely won't able to buy anything off the shelf more accurate than that combo and stay within your budget. And to build any other custom rifle would take you much longer.
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