NEW Shotgun Pattern Test Results - Detail & Pic' heavy...

Since it says on the box of ammo to try a modified choke I would try your modified choke. You may not need to buy a choke. If you don't like the way the modified choke patterns try your full choke and then your improved cylinder choke before spending ammo money on chokes.
 
I have an 835 and a little bag of extended chokes....factory full non-extended shoots 3.5 inch Winchester #4 buck best of all for me. I'd try what I have first.
 
I agree, I'd try what you have. If you know the constrictions and don't like the patterns, then you can start looking into buying aftermarket extended chokes by comparing constrictions to go a little tighter or a little more open rather than just going by full or extra full or what have you.
 
Oh, I should have mentioned, I think those Hornady loads use VersaTite wads which is supposed to be like Federals FliteControl. So if you do get aftermarkets chokes, avoid porting, it interferes with the wad. In fact, it may be because of the wad that a tighter choke isn't necessary and your factory flush modified may be gold.
 
I've been using the Hornady BB loads in a Versa Max. I got the best patterns with my factory modified out to 40 after that it starts to get too open. I kill most of my shotgun coyotes 35 and under so this works well for me. If I'm planning on shooting out to 50 I go with Carlsons sporting clays full with three inch 4 buck remingtons or I use my super Nova with the Carlsons Buckshot choke.
 
I have a new Beretta A350 Xtrema that I just purchased a new Indian Creek Turkey Choke (.670) for. I have a box of the Winchester Varmint X to try out. Looks as though the load likes the .665 to .680 constrictions.
 
When it comes to patterning shotguns for Predators I just cut out a steel silhouette Fox and shoot at it.

35 yds

50 yds


So when this cat syepped out at 43 yds its a done deal. Hornady magnum coyote bb with factory mod choke
 
Less effective did you not see the dead animal in the last picture? I beg to differ. I guess it's less effective if if you want to count every pellet that leaves a shotgun shell. I don't care about the ones that are not in the Kill Zone. As for precise aiming... It's a shotgun. I just aim for the neck like I would in the woods.
 
normally pattern in the fall when temps are 40's/low 50's. got to thinking about something and not sure i ever seen it mentioned anyplace.

going to be pattern testing a different shotgun in the next week or so. temps probably be low 70's to upper 70's when i get around to doing the testing.

could be quite a difference in temps between pattern time and killing time next fall/winter.

are shotgun patterns affected by temperatures? not even enough to worry about?

thanks.
 
Originally Posted By: dwaLess effective did you not see the dead animal in the last picture? I beg to differ. I guess it's less effective if if you want to count every pellet that leaves a shotgun shell. I don't care about the ones that are not in the Kill Zone. As for precise aiming... It's a shotgun. I just aim for the neck like I would in the woods.

Yes, less effective. You don't care about pellets not in the kill zone? What if the majority center of the pattern is high? Left, right or low? Using your method you have no idea of that. You really dont have your pattern precisely mapped out using your method. I need and want to know where my center dense pattern is regarding point of aim and point of impact. It's akin to sighting in your rifle by simply laying over the hood of the truck and being able to hit a quart oil container at 100 yards. Could you still kill a deer with that coarse sight in? Most likely so. However, you really don't have a truly accurate picture of your rifle and chosen loads accuracy, or a precise sight in. My son had a brand new Winchester SX3 that patterned 30" high and 18" left! We went to the skeet range with it when he first bought it and he couldn't break a clay. He took it squirrel hunting and missed every squirrel he shot at. Same with crow hunting. He finally complained enough that I took it to the range and the patterning board. Good grief that was a messed up shotgun. That was the worst I've ever seen, but it's not uncommon at all for a pattern to center 6" - 12" off. That's why so many guys put adjustable sights or an optic of some sort on board so they can actually sight in and center their pattern. Had a guy on this forum a few years back that bitched about a certain choke company and a shell manufacturer. Seems he couldn't kill a coyote with that special coyote choke and shell. In fact, he had rolled a couple and they got away wounded. I asked if he had patterned his shotgun and he answered, "it's a shotgun, no need really." I convinced him to actually go shoot some paper and his gun shot high. He was shooting mostly just over the top of the coyotes he'd shot at. Mostly that is, I think he had grazed a couple and rolled them but not really hit them hard enough to keep them down. He had blamed everything but himself. He actually had a decent pattern but it impacted to high. It really opened his eyes to how finicky shotguns can be.
 
STS,
Yes, patterns can be affected by temperature and humidity. No doubt that a frosty morning well below freezing isn't going to give as good a pattern as a nice 80* setting. But what's to be done about it? I try to keep things as apples to apples as I can and test my combinations in hunting like conditions best I can. Then you truly know what's gonna happen on that 21* snowy morning at 40 yards.

A factor not often recognized is the difference between a clean bore/choke and a dirty barrel. Patterns will begin to deteriorate at a certain point when the barrel/choke gets dirty enough. Clays shooters, bird hunters and small game shooters don't worry about a dirty bore too much. Those situations are pretty forgiving with clouds of small shot and 30" circles. Turkey and predator hunters that want to deliver a precise pattern at longer ranges on much smaller target areas should be more aware of how their gun shoots after 18+ shots fired. A dove hunter might not clean his barrel for the entire season with hundreds of shots fired. A predator hunter concerned with optimum performance probably should scrub the barrel and choke by the time he's fired 25 or so shots.
 
That's very interesting GC, and real time consuming and a little expensive these days. Thanks for all the work you put into this post. I can't wait to get out and try my new gun out like that and see what I come up with. Thanks again very much.

Jim
 
That's a great post .I really look forward to testing patterns.
I have a idea and wanted to hear from you all on it. What if we came up with a (standard ) for measuring knock down power.
Like a simple sled that moved back so far when shot , like a frame that held a foot by foot plywood and slide s on 2" by 2" angle irons we could all make em the same way and weight.
 
Just a point of note regarding choke.....

A number of years back a few friends and I wanted to see what kind of performance we could get from a particular shot gun load for ducks. This was a load of non tox stuff whose name I will retain but say that it was supposed to be the kick a** load of all times.

We ordered two choke tubes from one of the major mfg'g choked at full based on their nominal bore size for two different guns. From that point we shot patterns and opened chokes a little bit at a time using valve grinding compound on a wire brush with light patch material wrapped around it. (yea, I know, not real scientific)

What we found did not surprise us much but both guns (chokes) did the best with those loads at about a point between IM and Full on one gun and M and IM on the other gun. Their bore dimensions were not the same so that answers that question.....

ADMITTEDLY this was a low science examination but it did prove the tighter choke was not the answer. We has scary even distribution as I remember to the point that these were the rounds used by that entire bunch for a number of duck seasons here on the Mississippi flyway all the way down through AR and LA.

I would like to go back and do this again with some of this bigger shot we have today just for giggles. I sort of dont think the outcome would be much different......
 
Originally Posted By: huntschoolI would like to go back and do this again with some of this bigger shot we have today just for giggles. I sort of dont think the outcome would be much different......

go for it. please try to be done by around mid october.
 
Improved Modified is .025" from the nominal bore diameter. I've found it to be very consistent and often does better than full choke with large payloads of big shot. However, in every instance I was able to better performance by going tighter. There has always been a sweet spot somewhere farther down the constriction line. With that said, if someone really pressed me and said I can only use the five factory chokes that came with my gun, which one would most likely give best results I'd recommend they try the IM first.

Edit: I don't shoot steel shot. In that case I doubt going tighter would improve things and could quickly reach a dangerous place. My testing has always been lead, plated lead or some form of tungsten mix shot. And this right up through No. Four Buckshot but not the larger sizes. That's completely different. In fact, with 00 and 1 Buck the Improved Modified has been very consistent and usually the best patterning constriction. Many of the aftermarket speciality buckshot choke tubes will be right there at .025" construction.
 
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Originally Posted By: Duane davenportThat's a great post .I really look forward to testing patterns.
I have a idea and wanted to hear from you all on it. What if we came up with a (standard ) for measuring knock down power.
Like a simple sled that moved back so far when shot , like a frame that held a foot by foot plywood and slide s on 2" by 2" angle irons we could all make em the same way and weight.

For a shotgun shooting buckshot or big pellets the only way I would be interested in knock down power was if I was shooting very large animals at 15 yards or less. Moving a sled would show the energy of all of the pellets. I don't think plywood would work because some good coyote loads the pellets will go through 3/4" plywood at 60 yards.

For big animals at short range you will still need deep penetration not just energy.

Knock down power is like a football player tackling you while he is running at high speed. There is a lot of pounds of energy there that knocks a guy down but most guys just get up a walk away.

With shotgun pellets I am pretty sure that penetration is the most important thing when it comes to killing birds and animals.

Some shot types and sizes can have a fair amount of energy but they won't penetrate as deep as some smaller denser shot types.

From KPY Shotshell Ballistic Software
1500 fps Steel T shot at 40.7 yards is going 825 fps, has 12.62 pounds of energy and gets 2.98" of gel penetration

1200 fps #2 Federal Heavyweight shot at 40.7 yards is going 824 fps, has 10.10 pounds of energy and gets 4.51" of gel penetration.

The Steel T shot is only going 1 fps faster at 40.7 yards than the Federal Heavyweight #2 shot. The Steel T shot has more energy at 40.7 yards than the smaller #2 FHW shot but the smaller diameter denser #2 shot out penetrates the bigger less dense Steel T shot at 40.7 yards by quite a bit.

The ballistic gel is a way of measuring penetration so you can compare the results using a consistent material.
 
Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen. All else is gravy. Shotguns kill by having multiple pellets of sufficient size penetrate deeply enough to shred vital organs. Animals die from shotgun wounds in hunting situations not from an energy dump as in maybe a high velocity centerfire rifle cartridge but because large amounts of vital tissue is destroyed by multiple pellets and is no longer functioning. I might add that rifle cartridges also need to accomplish the same goal but that they do so by a different means. Because individual shotgun pellets lack the high velocity energy, diameter and construction of rifle bullets it requires multiple pellets to get the work done. That's why patterning is critical. You just can't rely on the single Golden BB to get the work done.

In the case of a sled to capture or record momentum or energy dump for shotguns I doubt it would be very impressive at 40 yards. I don't think it would give a true reflection of a shotguns killing power. Much in the way of an arrow and broadhead. An arrow launched from a modern bow has very little energy on target. But it kills game dead very quickly and humanely because momentum drives that razor sharp broadhead which cuts a large hole through heart, lungs, arteries and veins disrupting their function. Animals succumb very quickly and quite humanely to deeply penetrating sharp broadheads. I've shot through deer while bowhunting and they often have very little reaction to the shot. Maybe kick slightly, hop off a few yards and look around like they were stung by a bee. Within short seconds they get wobbly and go down. Usually they move off from the shot from 25 to maybe 100 yards and are down very quickly.

In the case of shotgun pellets my concern is how large the pellets are, are they large enough, material of construction, how deeply can the individual pellets penetrate and how far can I get a sufficient number of those pellets to impact at point of aim? This be it dove, turkey or coyote. Range is a factor because it limits penetration of smaller pellets and also limits the number of pellets in the kill zone with larger shot sizes. This is due to the considerably fewer pellets in the load and increasing pattern spread. Every ten yards past the forty yard line really penalizes the pattern. Choosing a suitable load and working out reliable patterns to point of aim is critical to success with shotguns. Especially so on larger animals. All the yelping about 70 - 80 and even 100 yard shotgunning is well and fine but you have to hold reliable killing patterns in a 10" circle at point of aim. Plus the pellets need be of sufficient size and penetrate deeply enough to shred vital organs. And that's a challenge that nobody seems to be able to consistently accomplish. It's the question that the yelpers can't or won't answer. Hits on a plywood coyote cut out in the gut or hind leg don't count. Relying on the Hail Mary that Uncle Ernie used to kill that one coyote at 90 yards back in '77 from his bolt action long tom goose gun doesn't count either. It's what is consistently and repeatedly going on in the center of the pattern right at point of aim that counts. Otherwise you're praying for the Golden BB. Can I kill a coyote with a dove load of 7.5 shot? You bet, but the coyote has to be a lot closer than if I'm using Number Four Buckshot. A bit of a rambling thought on the subject. It's been discussed here numerous times in the past but I'd bet it's yearly one of PM's most often discussed and cussed topics.
 
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