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Top 5 states for SAT scores for 2009.
http://blog.bestandworststates.com/2009/08/25/state-sat-scores-2009.aspx

1 Iowa 3% 610 615 588 1813
2 Wisconsin 5% 594 608 582 1784
3 Minnesota 7% 595 609 578 1782
4 Missouri 5% 595 600 584 1779
5 Illinois 6% 588 604 583 1775


Bottom 5
46 New York 85% 485 502 478 1466
47 Georgia 71% 490 491 479 1461........*** Non Union
48 South Carolina 67% 486 496 470 1453....*** Non Union
49 Hawaii 58% 479 502 469 1451
50 Maine 90% 468 467 455 1391

So where are you getting the idea that the union is the problem? I don't see the correlation.
 
Originally Posted By: jeffoOnly 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal:
Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows. South Carolina -50th, North Carolina -49th, Georgia -48th, Texas -47th, Virginia -44th (By the way, Wisconsin is #2.)

· this information has been verified at the following sources: http://www.nctq.org/tr3/scope/

· http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/states/USCHARTsar.html


Stop taking the spoon fed crap the union tells you for gospel, there is also 10 other states that do not guarantee it and the whole SAT/ACT is flawed.

http://factcheck.org/2011/03/wisconsins-baffling-budget-battle/
 
Quote:So where are you getting the idea that the union is the problem? I don't see the correlation.
HELLO, EARTH TO DOGCATCHER, it was jeffo's contention that unions RAISED ACT/SAT scores, nobody claimed the opposite.





Quote:Where do the rest of the kids go? The ones no one wants?
Just curious jeffo, which students would be "the ones no one wants"?

Certainly not blind, deaf, or autistic. Not those with pervasive developmental disorder, Asperger’s Syndrome, mental retardation, specific learning disabilities, speech and language impairment, emotional disturbance, or developmental delay. Also not those with drug, alcohol, and/or violence issues.

Just which students would you anticipate there not being a school for?
 
Originally Posted By: crashnrondoOriginally Posted By: jeffoOnly 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal:
Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows. South Carolina -50th, North Carolina -49th, Georgia -48th, Texas -47th, Virginia -44th (By the way, Wisconsin is #2.)

· this information has been verified at the following sources: http://www.nctq.org/tr3/scope/

· http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/states/USCHARTsar.html


Stop taking the spoon fed crap the union tells you for gospel, there is also 10 other states that do not guarantee it and the whole SAT/ACT is flawed.

http://factcheck.org/2011/03/wisconsins-baffling-budget-battle/

You need to check your data, there was nothing in your fact check about the 2009 SAT scores. You can find that data in the link I previously provided or at http://blog.bestandworststates.com/2009/08/25/state-sat-scores-2009.aspx
 
Originally Posted By: NM LeonQuote:So where are you getting the idea that the union is the problem? I don't see the correlation.
HELLO, EARTH TO DOGCATCHER, it was jeffo's contention that unions RAISED ACT/SAT scores, nobody claimed the opposite.

I don't believe that either. I don't beleive it is only the union or the non union teachers that control how the students do on the SAT tests or any other test.
 
Wisconsin ranked third among all states and the District of Columbia. But only 4 percent of Wisconsin students participated in the SAT in 2010, so the ranking isn’t very meaningful.

In 2010, 69 percent of Wisconsin students took the ACT. And what did those results show? The state-by-state composite ACT scores for 2010 show Wisconsin students scored an average of 22.1, which is higher than the national average of 21 and better than 32 states and the District of Columbia. Seventeen states scored higher than Wisconsin; one had the same score. But, again, such comparisons are dicey. Only four states had higher composite ACT scores than Maine, but only 10 percent of its graduates took the test. The College Board warns against making such comparisons. In an e-mail, Katherine Levin, a College Board spokeswoman, called such comparisons "invalid" since the students taking the test are self-selected.
 
LOL....all i can say with vacations and sick days a teacher only works 7 years out of 10...PLEASE tell me who gets that kind of payed time off.

As for stress teaching children...try thinking the stress if knowing your company is capable of going out of business at any time. And will there be food on the table for the kids.

It happens to accountants, and many educated professionals.
They go to a new job and start all over at a lower salary.

Its about time the have to live like the rest of us.

Forgot...we were in the classroom for 17 years so we DO know what its like.
 
Originally Posted By: crashnrondoOriginally Posted By: jeffoOnly 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal:
Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows. South Carolina -50th, North Carolina -49th, Georgia -48th, Texas -47th, Virginia -44th (By the way, Wisconsin is #2.)

· this information has been verified at the following sources: http://www.nctq.org/tr3/scope/

· http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/states/USCHARTsar.html


Stop taking the spoon fed crap the union tells you for gospel, there is also 10 other states that do not guarantee it and the whole SAT/ACT is flawed.http://factcheck.org/2011/03/wisconsins-baffling-budget-battle/







How so?
 
HELLO, EARTH TO DOGCATCHER, it was jeffo's contention that unions RAISED ACT/SAT scores, nobody claimed the opposite.




That was not my contention. That was your interpretation. There's a difference. You should know that.
 
Reading is fundamental...

5th bullet point in the summary

A claim that Wisconsin ranks second in combined SAT and ACT scores is based on 12-year-old data and flawed methodology. Even the author of that report says it shouldn’t be taken "too seriously."
 
Originally Posted By: crashnrondo Stop taking the spoon fed crap the union tells you for gospel, there is also 10 other states that do not guarantee it and the whole SAT/ACT is flawed.

http://factcheck.org/2011/03/wisconsins-baffling-budget-battle/]
Originally Posted By: jeffoHow so?

From the link you apparently ignored: "It’s true that five states specifically ban collective bargaining for teachers, but it is also true that 10 other states do not have collective bargaining laws — giving school boards the final say in salary and working conditions in 15 states, not just five."

The latest reports (above) are from 2010. That's about as good as it gets.


 
Originally Posted By: NM LeonHELLO, EARTH TO DOGCATCHER, it was jeffo's contention that unions RAISED ACT/SAT scores, nobody claimed the opposite.
Originally Posted By: jeffoThat was not my contention. That was your interpretation. There's a difference. You should know that.

So this was just B.S.?

Originally Posted By: NM LeonSo again jeffo (for the third time), Is it really your contention that teachers union collective bargaining increases ACT/SAT scores?
Originally Posted By: jeffoThat is what the data shows.
 
Quote:I was asking how the SAT/ACT test was flawed.


The tests themselves aren't flawed.

The supposed correlation/causation between SAT/ACT scores and collective bargaining IS flawed.

The use of a metric that applies to only 4% of students as an indication of where that state's students rate against other state's students IS flawed.

I guess you didn't remember THIS?

Originally Posted By: jeffoHow can Wisconsin kids be so dumb for so long but suddenly outdo almost everyone else on the day of the SAT test? Oh yeah, they cheat!
Originally Posted By: NM LeonLet me try this once again. The ones who "suddenly outdo almost everyone else on the day of the SAT test" are ONLY the 12th graders who take the SATs. That subset does NOT include the the kids who have dropped out or just not taken the test. The "dumb" kids (your words) DIDN'T TAKE THE TEST.

It also turns out to be just 4% of the subset and as such is invalid even when only considering that subset.

In other words it's total B.S.



When you can show with statistical validity that the implementation of laws allowing collective bargaining is consistently followed by improved quality of education or that taking away collective bargaining rights is consistently followed by a degradation of scholastic quality, come on back. I'm always ready to learn.

In the meantime, your supposed correlation/causation between collective bargaining and educational quality is pure union propaganda B.S. They lied up front about how many states don't have collective bargaining, they used junk methodology in combining ACT and SAT scores to arrive at an "average", and they used data that the testing organizations (properly) say upfront is invalid.

Apparently even basic statistical analysis isn't a required class for a teaching certificate?
 
Originally Posted By: NM LeonQuote:I was asking how the SAT/ACT test was flawed.


The tests themselves aren't flawed.

The supposed correlation/causation between SAT/ACT scores and collective bargaining IS flawed.

The use of a metric that applies to only 4% of students as an indication of where that state's students rate against other state's students IS flawed.

I guess you didn't remember THIS?

Originally Posted By: jeffoHow can Wisconsin kids be so dumb for so long but suddenly outdo almost everyone else on the day of the SAT test? Oh yeah, they cheat!
Originally Posted By: NM LeonLet me try this once again. The ones who "suddenly outdo almost everyone else on the day of the SAT test" are ONLY the 12th graders who take the SATs. That subset does NOT include the the kids who have dropped out or just not taken the test. The "dumb" kids (your words) DIDN'T TAKE THE TEST.

It also turns out to be just 4% of the subset and as such is invalid even when only considering that subset.

In other words it's total B.S.



When you can show with statistical validity that the implementation of laws allowing collective bargaining is consistently followed by improved quality of education or that taking away collective bargaining rights is consistently followed by a degradation of scholastic quality, come on back. I'm always ready to learn.

In the meantime, your supposed correlation/causation between collective bargaining and educational quality is pure union propaganda B.S. They lied up front about how many states don't have collective bargaining, they used junk methodology in combining ACT and SAT scores to arrive at an "average", and they used data that the testing organizations (properly) say upfront is invalid.

Apparently even basic statistical analysis isn't a required class for a teaching certificate?




No, we just have to know things that actually matter. Stats are so misleading that you can "prove" anything. I've given you stats - you shot them down and said they were invalid or something to that effect. You seem to use them when they are in your favor. Otherwise, and heaven forbid you might be wrong about something, data is flawed.
 
There are LOTS of very good teachers in the public schools who bust their asses every day for their students. I also know there are some deadbeats that are protected by their unions...many times these same deadbeats serve as the local union reps.

It's not really fair to condemn all public school teachers. IMO they have good middle class jobs with great benefits. No one is getting rich teaching, but it is one of the better middle class jobs. That being said, there is no excuse for us to tolerate mediocrity. If we could eliminate tenure I think we would go a long way towards improving the quality of public education in America.

 
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Great post Brad....not sure why check out threads like this that seems to bash every public school teacher out there. But I get tired of not saying anything when I'm at home on these forums and she(my wife)is at home still busting her tail grading papers or going to meetings calling parents or many other things she does AFTER school hours.Seems to me there are a lot of Universities out there full of students with public school educations? Yes there are flaws in the educational system but point out any system that does not have a flaw and I will shake your hand.Sorry for the rant I will call it my 1 cent worth since I have a public education and am probably not smart enough to give 2 cents worth.
 
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