KIlling/Stopping Power From Twist Rate??

Quote:
Fast twist barrels, when used with heavier bullets, have shorter life, because the time in the barrel is longer, and the peak temperature curve is longer.

If you shoot light weight bullets, the barrel life is the same.




Not necessarily. I think that it depends a great deal on the capacity and velocity potential of the cartridge the barrel is chambered for. Speaking in terms of off the shelf stuff, I think you are generally correct. But with larger capacity cases and higher velocities found in many custom applications, I believe barrel life is often going to be significantly shorter in a fast twist regardless of bullet weight.

Using .224's as an example, I think you are probably right when talking about .223 class cartridges. But in my limited experience it has not held true for .22-250 class cartridges. Using a 55 gr. bullet at 3600 fps as an example - it will be spinning at about 185,000 RPM with a 14 twist barrel, 324,000 RPM in an 8 twist.

My experience has been that the extra 120,000 RPM makes a big difference in useable barrel life with even light weight varmint bullets such as the 55 Vmax. At over 300K RPM, it simply does not take much to compromise the integrity of a thin jacket. Going back to one of my own barrels mentioned earlier in this thread, an 8 twist .22-250AI, at 700 rounds the throat really didn't look all THAT bad. About like you'd expect for that number of rounds, really. But, bullets were inclined to go poof with monotonous regularity at that point. That includes 55 gr. Vmax. Again, my take on it, is that the centrifugal force of the extra 120,000+ RPM, as compared to a slower twist barrel, was enough to cause jacket failure where it would not have been occuring without the extra 120,000 RPM.

Nothing but my own opinion, but I really do think with fast twist barrels, that as case capacity and velocity go up, the rate at which barrel life decreases is accelerated - regardless of bullet weight. But for garden variety .223', I think you are correct and that what I'm saying is a totally moot point.

- DAA
 
I agree with DAA. A fast twist barrel does not burn any faster than a slow twist but the point at which it becomes unusable because of blowups comes much sooner. A slower twist barrel can be much more burnt before it starts blowing up bullets or looses accuracy.

Jack
 
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OK, I was one to argue that twist rate does little to add to the stopping power of the bullet you are using.

My basis of foundation was that terminal expansion & shock was attributed to your bullet design way more than the twist rate.

However, here lately, there have been more people talking about how a fast twist rate will add to the killing power of your bullet... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

I'm talking a comparison of identical bullets at identical muzzel velocities.

What is your experience?

How do you support your experience?

I'm shooting 9 twisters right now. .223 caliber.
I know they make 7&8 twisters...

I shoot mid weight 55 grainers. To me, I don't want to lose the MV to a heavier bullet. If I want a heavier bullet, I'll grab my .243 Win.

The "over stabilized" bullet comes to mind as well. Is it really possible to "overstabilize" a bullet? If not, why do they still make the 11 or 12's?

Thanks!



You could write a book about barrel twist thick enough to put an Orthodox Catholic Bible to shame.

To make a long story short though:

Yes you can overstabalize a bullet, this only shows up on poor quality ammo or at LONG range, and only after a G-STAB factor of around 5.0 or so. It results in loss of stability due to the angle of the bullet wayyyy out there down range remaining nose-up instead of following a parabolic path.

Yes barrel twist can influence wound severity. This is mainly seen when the G-STAB factor falls below zero and fleet yaw is magnified or destabalization causes a bullet to strike soft-tissue at more of an angle causing more rapid tumbling/fragmentation. Usually seen with 5.56 M193 in 1-14 barrels in ambient temps below 60*F. Also inaccurate.

It is also argued that if you spin up a VMAX fast enough, the radial forces on the bullet cause it to fragment easier when striking a target. Who cares, VMAX's,ect. go to pieces no matter what in my experience.

That is just how I sum it up. I do admit I did not bother to read all 3 pages of this thread, but I am sure I re-stated a lot of things previously posted.

ETA:

A fast-twist barrel CAN wear sooner than a slower twist. This is evident especially with higher velocity loadings. The reason being is throat erosion occurs faster and accuracy can fall off due to the round striking the more angled (due to faster twist) rifling and it's inherent initial resistance to spin with the grooves. The combination of hot-gasses and the projectile are the main culprits. Without rapid-fire, I doubt much of an issue would be observed, even academically. On an AR-type weapon used for 3-gun or something, or maybe a prarie-dog shoot, I would expect it to be more noticeable. Again, it is mostly academic.

Will you ever really notice this? Probably not. However, I have heard of at least one person/company documenting how the lands lost some crisp-ness near the chamber a lot sooner on a faster twist barrel of identical caliber.

Also ETA: I have shot 40gr VMAX's (listed as 3800fps from a 24" tube) from a 20" Colt HBAR with a 1/7 twist. They did not blow up or anything of the sort. YMMV
 
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Quote:
"... To make a long story short though:

Yes you can overstabalize a bullet, this only shows up on poor quality ammo or at LONG range, and only after a G-STAB factor of around 5.0 or so. It results in loss of stability due to the angle of the bullet wayyyy out there down range remaining nose-up instead of following a parabolic path.



No, you cannot "Overstabilize a bullet". It is a very popular myth that keeps getting passed along in posts like this - and new guys pick it up and it keeps going around and around like a stale fruit cake at Christmas.

The laws of physics do not allow the axis of a bullet to follow the tangent of a parabolic path.

First - Newton's laws of motion state that to change the motion or direction of anything, a force is required - nothing changes attitude or direction withOUT a causative force.
There are no forces that would cause the axis of the spinning bullet to change and follow the tangent. There are no tail fins like an arrow, and no other explainable forces - so Newton's laws would preclude such a statement.

From the motion of planets and stars, to the motion of sub-atomic particles, NO ONE has ever found a single exception to Newton's laws of motion.

And gyroscopic forces preclude any change in tangential attitude of a bullet, WITHOUT a very serious change in direction to the LEFT.

If you take a spinning object that is turning clockwise (from your point of view), and try to turn it nose down or tail up, it will be forced by the laws of precession, to turn left - not a little, but a dammn lot, and there are no exceptions. You physically cannot get a bullet or a gyroscope that is spinning clockwise, to turn nose down without this sharp turn to the left.

Buy a dime store gyroscope and try it.

For a long range bullet to follow the tangent of the arc, it would hit the ground pointing at more than a 45° angle to the LEFT... which (as we know) is not true, nor is it possible.

This is not my opinion, it is the opinion of about 1,000,000+ physicists and Sperry Gyroscope, (who knows a bit about gyroscopes)... I have their documentation on my coffee table as I type this.

And the thing about the laws of physics is this:

You can break traffic laws and pay a fine.

But if you try to break the laws of physics, you either get a Nobel prize in Physics and get a college named after you...

... or you get laughed off the island.

It is very very rare that the first case ever happens.

Even Stephen Hawking, the father of the Black Hole, was forced to admit that (after 30 years of his black hole theory) it is not true.

His theories broke one of the laws of physics, the law that pertain to the "Information paradox".

In physics, no one gets a free pass.

.
 
I hate to say it (just kidding /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif, CatShooter is correct in the strictest sense. Vernon Speer showed by the aid of high speed photography in the 50's and 60's that once a bullet precesses, it will go ahead and tumble.
John
 
Quote:
Quote:
"... To make a long story short though:

Yes you can overstabalize a bullet, this only shows up on poor quality ammo or at LONG range, and only after a G-STAB factor of around 5.0 or so. It results in loss of stability due to the angle of the bullet wayyyy out there down range remaining nose-up instead of following a parabolic path.



No, you cannot "Overstabilize a bullet". It is a very popular myth that keeps getting passed along in posts like this - and new guys pick it up and it keeps going around and around like a stale fruit cake at Christmas.

The laws of physics do not allow the axis of a bullet to follow the tangent of a parabolic path.

First - Newton's laws of motion state that to change the motion or direction of anything, a force is required - nothing changes attitude or direction withOUT a causative force.
There are no forces that would cause the axis of the spinning bullet to change and follow the tangent. There are no tail fins like an arrow, and no other explainable forces - so Newton's laws would preclude such a statement.

From the motion of planets and stars, to the motion of sub-atomic particles, NO ONE has ever found a single exception to Newton's laws of motion.

And gyroscopic forces preclude any change in tangential attitude of a bullet, WITHOUT a very serious change in direction to the LEFT.

If you take a spinning object that is turning clockwise (from your point of view), and try to turn it nose down or tail up, it will be forced by the laws of precession, to turn left - not a little, but a dammn lot, and there are no exceptions. You physically cannot get a bullet or a gyroscope that is spinning clockwise, to turn nose down without this sharp turn to the left.

Buy a dime store gyroscope and try it.

For a long range bullet to follow the tangent of the arc, it would hit the ground pointing at more than a 45° angle to the LEFT... which (as we know) is not true, nor is it possible.

This is not my opinion, it is the opinion of about 1,000,000+ physicists and Sperry Gyroscope, (who knows a bit about gyroscopes)... I have their documentation on my coffee table as I type this.

And the thing about the laws of physics is this:

You can break traffic laws and pay a fine.

But if you try to break the laws of physics, you either get a Nobel prize in Physics and get a college named after you...

... or you get laughed off the island.

It is very very rare that the first case ever happens.

Even Stephen Hawking, the father of the Black Hole, was forced to admit that (after 30 years of his black hole theory) it is not true.

His theories broke one of the laws of physics, the law that pertain to the "Information paradox".

In physics, no one gets a free pass.

.



What you are saying makes sense, but I would like some documentation. Not arguing your point at all, just that I would be curious to see if it is in print or anything so that I could reference it myself.
 
Quote:
What you are saying makes sense, but I would like some documentation. Not arguing your point at all, just that I would be curious to see if it is in print or anything so that I could reference it myself.



I'm not trying to sell you on anything. It's just basic (11th grade) physics..

Use google - there is a ton of stuff out there.

If you PM me your address, I will mail you the page from the Sperry manual.


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A little documentation on solids to swaged bullets! For Gyroscopic effect only!!! Written by Carl at EA!

Another reason I don't shoot copper solids! Sorry X-bullet lovers!

I apologize, I'm also getting a little off the thread. Jerry aka (speedkills)

Solid bullets are just not nearly as accurate as swaged bullets. A bullet with a dense core is far more accurate than a turned copper solid. While we do shoot some solids here at Extreme Accuracy out of necessity for our sub caliber rifles(all our 10,12 and some of the 14 caliber bullets are turned solids)because of the fact that swaging them down that size with a lead core is very difficult. The gyroscopic stability is still reduced with the solid turned bullets but the small diameter of the 10, 12 and 14 caliber rifles still allows them to achieve decent accuracy. If you jump up to larger calibers like 22 thru 30 calibers you’ll notice a large reduction in accuracy.

If you go to any matches or look at the posted results you’ll find very few bench rest shooters or long range shooters will be shooting solids if any at all as the accuracy is just not near as high. The best accuracy is attained with thin jacketed highly pure lead core bullets that have much higher stability.

The BC of a solid bullet with a lighter core is also very low in comparison. The best BC’s are achieved with long VLD style bullets with heavy (powdered tungsten) cores but the price of them is still pretty high and only a couple places make them in volume.

The military has had the pleasure of using depleted uranium for making cores for bullets for some time and the BC readings on them is outstanding to say the least!

For a high BC bullet that is affordable to shoot and very accurate you would be much better off to look into custom bullet makers like, Bart’s, Berger, Calhoun, Uberman, or Kindlers.

Carl

Extreme Accuracy
 
Quote:
A little documentation on solids to swaged bullets! For Gyroscopic effect only!!! Written by Carl at EA!

Carl

Extreme Accuracy



This has nothing to do with gyroscope effect... and there are very accurate solid bronze match bullets being made.

They have other issues.


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