Interesting find at the range today....

Quote:
Quote:
jacket thickness differences as well as different harmonics. The barrel vibrates in the shape of the infinty symbol. the best groups are acheived when the bullet exits the muzzle at the intersection, however, a bullet/load may exit the muzzle at a different point, but do it consistently at the same point, and will show accuracy as well.

Jacket thickness coupled with a different "dwell" time than the v-max.

my .002"



Jacket thickness has no "bearing"( /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )on this. Where does this crap come from??

The vibrations in a barrel ("IF" it has them) do not form an infinity pattern - they are random, and they vary with different barrels, and are so slow that they cannot complete a single cycle before the bullet leaves the muzzle.

The "resonant frequency" of a barrel is only a hundred or so whips per second - the "dwell time" in the barrel of a high speed bullet is 1.5 to 2 milliseconds. So a "Dwell cycle" takes 10 milliseconds, the bullet is gone in 1/5th of a single cycle - in other words - if the barrel "is" harmonically vibration, the bullet is gone before 1/5th of the first cycle has started...

... do the math yourself!


.



jacket thickness i.e.(overall dia) and or a difference in jacket density/material will affect pressure. This is a very provable fact since some benchrest barrels won't shoot a J4 jacketed bullet and others won't shoot anything but a J4 jacketed bullet. I have some barrels that will fling a berger bullet into patterns, and others that will bughole them. The gunsmith told me that is just the way of things. Some rifling lands are higher, some are shallower, even in barrels from the same maker. It depends on the barrel itself, and the barrel dictates the jacket it desires and an overall dia that it prefers, which can only be a difference of .0005". Now we are talking serious accuracy here, not minute of animal, but the theory holds true.

try this, jamm seat a barnes (all copper) bullet in the lands by .020" and fire it with the same load that you were using with a cup and core bullet seated .020" into the lands. Now, read your strain guage results and compare them to one another. You will find that density does have an effect on pressure, and to a smaller degree, a jacket difference in density or dia will have an effect on a cup and core pill. The barnes suggestion is just a larger more dramatic change to illustrate the effect. This is also why Lapua built competition bullets in .308" and .309" dia. They suggested you try each one, to see which dia made the most accuracy. That is all related to both pressure/gas seal, and bore dia.

if these nuances didn't exist, every bullet of simlilar weight and bearing surface length, could be used with the same load data. But we know that doesn't fly (no pun intended) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
I'm going to share a little story with you that will answer the question of recoil changing POI in a round about way.

As some of you know, I at one time was a golf professional. There was an interview of Tiger Woods conducted by Golf Digest after he won the Canadian Open(and we have all seen the shot from the bunker over water that he hit with a 6 iron ad nauseum) any way on that shot, they asked him to recount the shot for the interview. He said that at IMPACT he felt as if th blade of the club was slightly open,"So he shut it down" to keep it tracking to the pin. Some issues of the magazine later they had used his quote on that shot as a bit of controversy. There was a study done by "Impact Golf" which was later bought by Nike from the owner Tom Stites about "Felt Impact to a golfer". The results were this: At the time that a touring professional feels the club head make contact with the ball, the ball is actually 18-24" in it's flight. Meaning that the influences of the club head on the ball have already been imparted on the ball before the golfer feels impact.

In short, Tiger couldn't possibly have shut the blade to avoid losing his shot to the right based on feel at impact because the ball was no longer touching the club face.

Now, what does this have to do with this topic? The felt recoil of a rifle is due to the gases that are behind the projectile escaping the barrel. The projectile has long left the barrel before recoil is felt, therefore being of no consequence to the projectile other than the anticipation of felt recoil I.E. Flinching.

I could be wrong but I think a bullet travels a little faster than a golf ball, so the bullet is LONG GONE before recoil has a chance to effect trajectory.

Chupa
 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif You guys lost me about 8 posts ago..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

But BOY....I've got some excuses to use now whenever I miss a shot. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
I posted a similar issue that I experienced. I used the same grain bullet, but not only was the bullet high a couple of inches, but off to the right a couple of inches as well!
 
[quotejacket thickness i.e.(overall dia) and or a difference in jacket density/material will affect pressure.



Absolutely. Jacket properties effect engraving force and engraving force effects bullet movement relative to pressure curve and the two together will absolutely have an effect on barrel time and the three of those together will positively have an effect on accuracy. Very similar to the effect of seating depth on accuracy.

- DAA
 
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
jacket thickness differences as well as different harmonics. The barrel vibrates in the shape of the infinty symbol. the best groups are acheived when the bullet exits the muzzle at the intersection, however, a bullet/load may exit the muzzle at a different point, but do it consistently at the same point, and will show accuracy as well.

Jacket thickness coupled with a different "dwell" time than the v-max.

my .002"



Jacket thickness has no "bearing"( /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )on this. Where does this crap come from??

The vibrations in a barrel ("IF" it has them) do not form an infinity pattern - they are random, and they vary with different barrels, and are so slow that they cannot complete a single cycle before the bullet leaves the muzzle.

The "resonant frequency" of a barrel is only a hundred or so whips per second - the "dwell time" in the barrel of a high speed bullet is 1.5 to 2 milliseconds. So a "Dwell cycle" takes 10 milliseconds, the bullet is gone in 1/5th of a single cycle - in other words - if the barrel "is" harmonically vibration, the bullet is gone before 1/5th of the first cycle has started...

... do the math yourself!


.



jacket thickness i.e. (overall dia) and or a difference in jacket density/material will affect pressure.



Jacket thickness has no relationship the "overall diameter". The Diameter is determined by the forming die.

Quote:
This is a very provable fact since some benchrest barrels won't shoot a J4 jacketed bullet and others won't shoot anything but a J4 jacketed bullet.



That proves nothing - most barrels have a preference to one bullet or another, regardless of jacket thickness.

.
 
The die makes the bullet a certain diameter, regardless of a jacket thickness. However, a different jacket material used on the same core, in the same die, will cause different pressure results. So in that case, the jacket makes the difference. In another case, using the same jacket, but forming to a different dia would also cause a difference in performance. In that case, the dia causes the difference. Engraving force causes changes in pressure, dwell time, and powder burn. This doesn't take into account the affect of bearing surface length, which also contributes. No 2 bullets are the same.

And if a barrel won't shoot ANY match grade pill, with a J4 jacket,..it is not the barrel itself, but the internal makeup of the rifling lands and grooves. The match bullets are proven, but dimensions make the ultimate choice. Some barrels just don't like some jackets or bore dia bullets. I have a barrel that runs 140gr a-max pills into tiny groups at 400-600yds,..and everyone at the match though I was foolish, until they saw the targets. THAT barrel just wants an A-max. The expensive pills simply don't shoot as well in that particular tube.
 
My short comment:
If all component's are the same except for bullet, then I would go with the thought, that the nosler bullet is traveling slower, making for the higher impact.

BC maybe??
 
Quote:
My short comment:
If all component's are the same except for bullet, then I would go with the thought, that the nosler bullet is traveling slower, making for the higher impact.

BC maybe??



Huh???

If they go really really slow, do they go straight up? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

.
 
Quote:
Quote:
My short comment:
If all component's are the same except for bullet, then I would go with the thought, that the nosler bullet is traveling slower, making for the higher impact.

BC maybe??



Huh???

If they go really really slow, do they go straight up? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

.


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif That's it.......
 
agree with your disagreement.

If you do the math, the rifle has moved only a few thou when the bullet clears the muzzle - the bulk of the recoil is after the bullet is gone.

The recoil is equal to the sum of the momentum of the bullet's velocity times it's weight, plus the weight of the powder times the exit velocity of the gas (~5,000 fps)... when you get the total forward momentum, you take the weight of the rifle, and work backwards.

If the recoil was well on its way before the bullet left, then muzzle breaks wouldn't be able to work.


The rifle recoils a few thou while the bullet is still in the barrel.
A few thou at the muzzle equals inches at 100 yds.

A bullet with a longer bearing surface will allow pressures to build which will enable a higher velocity, not lower velocity.

Not always.
A crony will tell you this.
 
Quote:
...the rifle has moved only a few thou when the bullet clears the muzzle...



And that few thou translates into what at 100 yards?
.001 muzzle climb on a 24" barrel = .150 higher impact on the target sound about right?
X "a few" and your group ain't so hot anymore. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

The recoil begins as soon as the bullet starts to move forward, by the way. You don't get anything for free.
 
Quote:
Quote:
...the rifle has moved only a few thou when the bullet clears the muzzle...





The recoil begins as soon as the bullet starts to move forward, by the way. You don't get anything for free.



Some people need to watch an episode of "Myth Busters" or "Smash Lab" They show ultra slow motion images of bullets leaving the muzzle all the time. If there are any effects of recoil before the bullet leaves the muzzle it's not evident to the naked eye even at those speeds displayed.

Chupa
 
Back
Top