huntsman22
New member
Yeah, but..... Some of those 'others' that you mentioned, make gates where there ain't gates........ How do you 'do unto them'?
How Low Can You Go?
- Thread starter claimbuster
- Start date
I have also seen both sides of this issue. Best advice I can give is to get a good map and a GPS. Here in Wyoming you may not cross private land to get to public unless the road is a public roadway. Now with that said I find it ironic when one rancher locks out several other ranchers in dispute over access which has happened in our area. When the ranchers approached the county commission to get access they were told it would be public all the way through.
I have watched inconsiderate hunters trespass on deeded land and enflame an already bad situation.
I have also had a new to the country rancher try to run me off BLM that was publicly accessable and claim it was deeded. Should have seen the look on his face when I called the Sheriff and then got out my maps from the court house with my GPS and explained to him how to locate yourself using the UTM grids on the map.
Before GIS I made land ownership maps for ranchers and you can bet I knew where I was all the time. I also learned that fences here in the West weren't always very close to actual ownership lines. When they took the error off the GPS signal it became realitively easy to locate yourself within 50 feet in the middle of nowhere.
So from my perspective there are bad apples on both sides of the issue and I doubt it will be settled anytime soon. But most people are decent and when given respect and the benefit of the doubt do the right thing. Respect private property and you will have few problems with landowners. But there are a few landowners that will attempt to take advantage of a situation just like there are a few hunters that trespass.
I have watched inconsiderate hunters trespass on deeded land and enflame an already bad situation.
I have also had a new to the country rancher try to run me off BLM that was publicly accessable and claim it was deeded. Should have seen the look on his face when I called the Sheriff and then got out my maps from the court house with my GPS and explained to him how to locate yourself using the UTM grids on the map.
Before GIS I made land ownership maps for ranchers and you can bet I knew where I was all the time. I also learned that fences here in the West weren't always very close to actual ownership lines. When they took the error off the GPS signal it became realitively easy to locate yourself within 50 feet in the middle of nowhere.
So from my perspective there are bad apples on both sides of the issue and I doubt it will be settled anytime soon. But most people are decent and when given respect and the benefit of the doubt do the right thing. Respect private property and you will have few problems with landowners. But there are a few landowners that will attempt to take advantage of a situation just like there are a few hunters that trespass.
JCL; there was a very interesting article in the local paper a few years ago about the Forest Servive checking the fence locations against the property boundries in the Black Hills. 1/2 mile off was not uncommon. One family "lost" what they "thought" was their hay meadow (theyt had been cutting hay on it for 80 years) because great great grandfather put the fence where he wanted it not where it belonged.
rockinbbar; Please explain this BLM "permit by deed". I checked the BLM site and could find nothing about any "permit by deed". I did find that the permits are subject to renewal every 10 years which also means that under some conditions the holder can lose the permit but nothing about a "permit by deed".
rockinbbar; Please explain this BLM "permit by deed". I checked the BLM site and could find nothing about any "permit by deed". I did find that the permits are subject to renewal every 10 years which also means that under some conditions the holder can lose the permit but nothing about a "permit by deed".
rockinbbar
New member
When you have a ranch that involves BLM land as part of the ranch, you get a deed to the BLM portion of the land as well as the deeded portion of the land.
BLM makes you maintain the land to their standards. If you are good rancher, you would do this anyway....
I am not sure if the BLm terminology for this type ranch is still called a "deed" per se by them anymore. It was when the land was aquired in the homestead act, but now the liberal run BLM & Forest Service considers all activity having to do with anything a "permit".
South of where I live is the McGregor Range that was homesteads and BLM. After WWII started they took the land they wanted. Only a few ranchers actually got their land back. (My wife's grandfather being one of the fortunate ones.)
Anyway, McGregor is still listed as BLM land now, only it is administered by the U.S. Army....(Ft. Bliss)
There are also certain things you can own on BLM land as well, such as barns, outbuildings, etc.
The only thing you can't do is place your residence on BLM land.
When someone encounters a ranch owner that may be a little less than friendly, it could be because when their family homesteaded the land in the 1880'-1920's, they were told that once they proved up on the land, they would "own" it forever, then things changed. The Govt. has gotten more control & put more restrictions on everything, including the influx of WAY less than desirable people onto their ranch.
After years of dumping trash, shooting holes in everything that isn't dirt, having cattle stolen, shot, run over, and chased by motorcycles, plus the influx of environmentalists that might documant a mouse on them they consider to be endangered, it's no wonder that the old ranch families are a little less than happy to see a stranger.
Even though BLM is accessable by the public, I always meet the rancher, then kind of get his blessing for being there. I ask them if they have any "trouble areas" of coyotes, or prairie dogs that need attention. I try to bring the rancher a small gift, or a pie perhaps when I come out.
You would be surprised when you respect the people that have sweated blood for the land that is their livelyhood, they will respect you back & open doors for you...(Maybe that 3 sections of deeded land he lets nobody into will be accessable?)
I know, clear as mud now....
They want it that way.(The beaurocrats)
Barry
BLM makes you maintain the land to their standards. If you are good rancher, you would do this anyway....
I am not sure if the BLm terminology for this type ranch is still called a "deed" per se by them anymore. It was when the land was aquired in the homestead act, but now the liberal run BLM & Forest Service considers all activity having to do with anything a "permit".
South of where I live is the McGregor Range that was homesteads and BLM. After WWII started they took the land they wanted. Only a few ranchers actually got their land back. (My wife's grandfather being one of the fortunate ones.)
Anyway, McGregor is still listed as BLM land now, only it is administered by the U.S. Army....(Ft. Bliss)
There are also certain things you can own on BLM land as well, such as barns, outbuildings, etc.
The only thing you can't do is place your residence on BLM land.
When someone encounters a ranch owner that may be a little less than friendly, it could be because when their family homesteaded the land in the 1880'-1920's, they were told that once they proved up on the land, they would "own" it forever, then things changed. The Govt. has gotten more control & put more restrictions on everything, including the influx of WAY less than desirable people onto their ranch.
After years of dumping trash, shooting holes in everything that isn't dirt, having cattle stolen, shot, run over, and chased by motorcycles, plus the influx of environmentalists that might documant a mouse on them they consider to be endangered, it's no wonder that the old ranch families are a little less than happy to see a stranger.
Even though BLM is accessable by the public, I always meet the rancher, then kind of get his blessing for being there. I ask them if they have any "trouble areas" of coyotes, or prairie dogs that need attention. I try to bring the rancher a small gift, or a pie perhaps when I come out.
You would be surprised when you respect the people that have sweated blood for the land that is their livelyhood, they will respect you back & open doors for you...(Maybe that 3 sections of deeded land he lets nobody into will be accessable?)
I know, clear as mud now....
They want it that way.(The beaurocrats)
Barry
Grazing leases (BLM terminology) are typically attached to the ownership of a particular parcel of deeded property that belongs to the lessee of the BLM grazing alotment. The land that a parcel is attached too may not be land that is even in the immediate area when you have large blocks of BLM ground. I have sub leased BLM ground to run cows in years past. But I had to pay more than the regular lease since I was not the primary lease holder. Lessee's are given a preferential grazing fee in exchange for maintaining fences, water etc. I may pay $15 an animal unit for a cow calf unit for one month from someone to run my cows on their land. A BLM lessee is paying $1.35 an animal unit but as stated above they have to maintain fences water etc. Most ranchers have a love hate with the BLM leases. The BLM lease can be a cheaper deal to run cows on if its set up well with water and good fences. It can also cost money to the rancher if he has to invest in major water or fencing improvements. The leases are also subject to grazing restrictions imposed by the BLM or Forest Service as to how many cows they can run and when they can run them. If they fail to follow these rules they can lose the grazing lease and someone else can take it over if they agree to fence out any deeded land in the lease and have a base property to attach the lease. Ranchers occasionally volunterly give up BLM and Forest leases if the costs of running there are to high or they no longer want to run cows. By law (Taylor Grazing Act) they must utlize the lease every so often or lose the lease. BLM and Forest Service ownership resides with the Federal Government.
Barry I will disagree with you on the type of owner's we are dealing with. I really like the oldtimers its the new crop of super rich guys that have no idea where the land boundaries are that have this idea that since they bought the deeded land they also own the BLM and will do with it what they want. They often ignore grazing rules and try to run everyone including their neighbors off. Most of these landowners bought the ranch for hunting only which is ok as long as they realize that if there are publicly accessable BLM or Forest Service parcels its a shared area. Now even with this if I know a guy is taking his family members or even a friend there I will wait until they are done even though I don't have to. Its the old common courtesy deal and it goes a long ways. But hard feelings lie on both sides of the fence so to speak due to the actions of a few individuals from both hunters and landowners.
Permittees may be allowed to have cabins, barns, corrals etc on Public lands if they are deemed necessary for operations and are approved by the BLM or are grandfathered because they predate the Taylor Grazing Act. I kown of one ranch where the headquarters are actually on BLM due to some poor survey work nearly 100 years ago. They are allowed to continue living there since it predated the Taylor Grazing Act.
Barry I will disagree with you on the type of owner's we are dealing with. I really like the oldtimers its the new crop of super rich guys that have no idea where the land boundaries are that have this idea that since they bought the deeded land they also own the BLM and will do with it what they want. They often ignore grazing rules and try to run everyone including their neighbors off. Most of these landowners bought the ranch for hunting only which is ok as long as they realize that if there are publicly accessable BLM or Forest Service parcels its a shared area. Now even with this if I know a guy is taking his family members or even a friend there I will wait until they are done even though I don't have to. Its the old common courtesy deal and it goes a long ways. But hard feelings lie on both sides of the fence so to speak due to the actions of a few individuals from both hunters and landowners.
Permittees may be allowed to have cabins, barns, corrals etc on Public lands if they are deemed necessary for operations and are approved by the BLM or are grandfathered because they predate the Taylor Grazing Act. I kown of one ranch where the headquarters are actually on BLM due to some poor survey work nearly 100 years ago. They are allowed to continue living there since it predated the Taylor Grazing Act.
Last edited:
rockinbbar
New member
I discovered an other house on BLM here, due to NO survey work prior to his purchase of the land...Gotta love it when you find out your $450K house is owned by BLM.
I too like the old timers & their families.
The new owners can be a different cat to deal with.
I too like the old timers & their families.
The new owners can be a different cat to deal with.
I know what a lot of ranchers are having to put up with. I am about the only member of my family that isn't earning at least part of my living from a livestock operation.
If you really want to have trouble in that regard have an Air Force Base on the other side of one of your fences and a bunch of idiots stationed there that can't figure out that they need to keep their dogs on a leash. That cousin is still on the orginal homestead that his great grandfather proved up in 1889 (if I remember the date right). And yes he has had trouble of any kind you care to name since he took the place over.
If you really want to have trouble in that regard have an Air Force Base on the other side of one of your fences and a bunch of idiots stationed there that can't figure out that they need to keep their dogs on a leash. That cousin is still on the orginal homestead that his great grandfather proved up in 1889 (if I remember the date right). And yes he has had trouble of any kind you care to name since he took the place over.
I've been hunting private ranches for over 3 decades now, and i've learned a few things about it, all of which have already been mentioned here, by the "insightfuls".
A couple years ago i was hunting with a buddy, and we were driving by the rancher as he was working on a pump station. He didn't look up , and my buddy instructs me to just drive by so we could get to the hunt. I told him that i always take the time for the rancher since he's my bread and butter. A couple years later somebody had shot several of their cattle off a dirt road, and they were shutting down their ranch to hunters. But i was on the "A list" he told me, so i could go anytime anywhere.
I don't know about u guys but the ranches i hunt are 4th in importance in my life besides my family, home, and maybe truck, tho i might give that up if i had to make a choice, honestly. Following the "Golden Rule" never got me in trouble yet.
I have thought about this a lot and i was thinking of making a bumper sticker sometime that would read something like this, "Preserve Hunting and Fishing, Remember Always--Landowner First!!"
A couple years ago i was hunting with a buddy, and we were driving by the rancher as he was working on a pump station. He didn't look up , and my buddy instructs me to just drive by so we could get to the hunt. I told him that i always take the time for the rancher since he's my bread and butter. A couple years later somebody had shot several of their cattle off a dirt road, and they were shutting down their ranch to hunters. But i was on the "A list" he told me, so i could go anytime anywhere.
I don't know about u guys but the ranches i hunt are 4th in importance in my life besides my family, home, and maybe truck, tho i might give that up if i had to make a choice, honestly. Following the "Golden Rule" never got me in trouble yet.
I have thought about this a lot and i was thinking of making a bumper sticker sometime that would read something like this, "Preserve Hunting and Fishing, Remember Always--Landowner First!!"
rockinbbar
New member
Good advice! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
azcoyotehunter
New member
My dad told me once when I was a teenager... "what comes around goes around."
When I was 13yrs old I thought my dad was nuts, now I'm 33yrs old and he's the smartest guy I know... amazing how much HE learned in 20 years! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
When I was 13yrs old I thought my dad was nuts, now I'm 33yrs old and he's the smartest guy I know... amazing how much HE learned in 20 years! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
AbnDeputy
New member
Wow, You never realize just how good you have it. My Father taught me the same "Golden Rule". I don't have any pd's around me, but the same land is "fought" over for both deer,coyote, and pheasant hunting. I too have been on the lists of farmers that have become impartial to some hunters because of cut fences, trucks tearing up fields chasing yotes and deer. It has gotten worse in the last 5-10 years. It is equally frustrating for those of us that respect both the land and the owner. I guess all that I can do is control my actions and the actions of those that I choose to hunt with. God bless our parents for bringing us up the way they did and hopefully we can pass that onto our children.
Barry, the BLM doesn't actually own the house only the land under it. They can make the owner remove the dwelling or they can allow them to continue using it just depends on the circumstances. It can also depend on who you deal with at the BLM or Forest Service. I have always gotten along well with the BLM but I know of some who have not and its a tough way to operate when you live in an area like I do where more than 50 percent of the land is owned by the BLM or Forest Service. Personality should not influence government actions but in reality dealing with the BLM or Forest Service is a lot like dealing with farmers and ranchers your attitude can have a real effect on the dealings you may have with them.
rockinbbar
New member
They will have to own this one....
It's constructed of adobe/stucco.
I know they don't own it, per se, but they do consider him "In Tresspass" was the terminology they used.
It will end up in court. I think they will settle, but it will end up costing him plenty.
It would have been way cheaper to have called me for a survey before, rather than after the fact.
When they consider you "in tresspass" they can and sometimes do call a bulldozer in to the rectify the situation.
Then all they would own would be a nice neat pile of adobe.
It's constructed of adobe/stucco.
I know they don't own it, per se, but they do consider him "In Tresspass" was the terminology they used.
It will end up in court. I think they will settle, but it will end up costing him plenty.
It would have been way cheaper to have called me for a survey before, rather than after the fact.
When they consider you "in tresspass" they can and sometimes do call a bulldozer in to the rectify the situation.
Then all they would own would be a nice neat pile of adobe.
With all the technolgy available today its amazing that people still do some stupid things. I don' know the guy who built the house but I bet he is mad at the BLM. However if someone built a house on his property bet he would be outraged. I hope they work out a compromise.
No the whole public lands access issue is one that is just going to get worse. 30 years ago the only real users were ranchers and hunters now with all the interest in environmental issues public land use and access face scrunity from many users. I fear that grazing will become a history footnote as will hunting on public lands. Hunters and ranchers have a lot in common but the high dollar hunting operations are driving a wedge between them. I don't blame the ranchers its a way to make a dollar in a tough economy. All the TV shows on hunting are helping drive the No trespass issue far faster than anything that either side has done to the other. Rumors of misconduct are often stories past on from one generation to another and become folklore in small communities. But the real culprit in my opinion is the high dollars some hunters pay for access.
I had a rancher call me and want to hire me for a weekend to gather his cows. He offered to pay my gas and give me $100 a day to help. I told him I didn't want his money but if he would let me hunt I would help. Told me he couldn't this year that Cabelas leased his place and he couldn't allow anymore locals to hunt. I told him that I really didn't need the money and felt bad and if he couldn't find anyone to call back. Well he could'nt find anyone to help. But for me to hunt his place with Cabelas would cost me $2500 for a three day hunt. I would spend three days riding for $300. Not a trade I wanted to make. Guys at the coffee shop suggested he have Cabelas supply him a crew. I felt sorry for him and went anyway. He tells me I can sneak on anytime just avoid the Cabelas folks. I won't do it but I also won't help him next year. Trades need to go both ways everything has a price.
No the whole public lands access issue is one that is just going to get worse. 30 years ago the only real users were ranchers and hunters now with all the interest in environmental issues public land use and access face scrunity from many users. I fear that grazing will become a history footnote as will hunting on public lands. Hunters and ranchers have a lot in common but the high dollar hunting operations are driving a wedge between them. I don't blame the ranchers its a way to make a dollar in a tough economy. All the TV shows on hunting are helping drive the No trespass issue far faster than anything that either side has done to the other. Rumors of misconduct are often stories past on from one generation to another and become folklore in small communities. But the real culprit in my opinion is the high dollars some hunters pay for access.
I had a rancher call me and want to hire me for a weekend to gather his cows. He offered to pay my gas and give me $100 a day to help. I told him I didn't want his money but if he would let me hunt I would help. Told me he couldn't this year that Cabelas leased his place and he couldn't allow anymore locals to hunt. I told him that I really didn't need the money and felt bad and if he couldn't find anyone to call back. Well he could'nt find anyone to help. But for me to hunt his place with Cabelas would cost me $2500 for a three day hunt. I would spend three days riding for $300. Not a trade I wanted to make. Guys at the coffee shop suggested he have Cabelas supply him a crew. I felt sorry for him and went anyway. He tells me I can sneak on anytime just avoid the Cabelas folks. I won't do it but I also won't help him next year. Trades need to go both ways everything has a price.
rockinbbar
New member
I agree totally about the price some are wiilling to pay to hunt.
In Texas, where all the land that is leased is private, (very little public land at all) the rancher makes as much on hunting as he does the cattle.
In Texas, where all the land that is leased is private, (very little public land at all) the rancher makes as much on hunting as he does the cattle.
rockinbbar
New member
That's the way it is in Texas too.
You have multi millionares buying ranches and farms for exorbitant amounts of money....The ranchers sell out, who wouldn't at the prices they are paying?
Then the new owner isn't interested in agriculture at all, only the hunting. So, you are left with hundreds of thousnds of acres being taken out of production and placed into wildlife management only.
What used to pay for the whole lease for the entire season is now just what one guy pays to hunt for 3 days.
When you have enough people paying $4500 plus kill fees, it kinda "ruins the economy" so to speak.
Private ranch elk & antelope are not much better in and around our western states.
You have multi millionares buying ranches and farms for exorbitant amounts of money....The ranchers sell out, who wouldn't at the prices they are paying?
Then the new owner isn't interested in agriculture at all, only the hunting. So, you are left with hundreds of thousnds of acres being taken out of production and placed into wildlife management only.
What used to pay for the whole lease for the entire season is now just what one guy pays to hunt for 3 days.
When you have enough people paying $4500 plus kill fees, it kinda "ruins the economy" so to speak.
Private ranch elk & antelope are not much better in and around our western states.