Flat base or boattail?

Originally Posted By: Lefty SRH

"[...] He asked me if he should try them for longer range shooting and I told him no."



Why??

If they shoot well, then why not use them???

 
Originally Posted By: HidalgoOriginally Posted By: Smokeless If those bullets are accurate at long range they also have to be accurate at close range. Ragged hole type accurate. Bullets don't get more accurate as they go down range they only get less accurate. BT design bullets tend to maintain accuracy better than fb bullets. Meaning they are equally accurate at close range.


You're still addressing a point that I already know. I never said boattail designs weren't accurate at short range. Not once. I simply said that my rifle shoots flat based better than boattails. Back to the original question .....

Originally Posted By: HidalgoAs strange as it may seem, I have had better accuracy at 100-200 yards with flat based bullets than I have had with boattailed bullets. Are any of you guys seeing any accuracy differences between these two designs?

Of course, it could have been the loads I was using and I just never found the magic mix of bullet and powder.


OK fair enough. Then I am addressing the fact that I don't have a problem with accuracy in the bt bullets. That was your main question to us all.

I have great success with either fb or bt bullet design. Some rifles of mine like both and some like one or the other best. All in all I shoot more bt bullets than fb.
 
People sure can get sure fire riled up about a question like this ha? My experience mirrors yours. FB bullets are more accurate at close range. It doesn't make sense, but it's true.

I hunt with a guy who has killed more critters than late night interstate traffic, last year I saw him drop an antelope at 514 yards with a .270 weatherby. He ranged the little doe, rested across the hood of his truck, and she never took a step. No spinning turrets, nothing. The point is that he knows his stuff. He says, and I quote " that big boatail hasn't calmed down and started flying straight until 350 or so". BT's are real predictable way out there, but I get erratic results with, say, a VLD until 300 yards. I read somewhere that it can be related to the crown. If a rifle has been cleaned 50 times with a steel rod, it might shoot FB ok, but BT won't exit the muzzle properly.

I could be talking out of my shoe though, I ask a lot of questions on this forum because there are many here with more experience in their big toe than 3 of me put together.
 
Originally Posted By: Adrian Rude

[...] " that big boatail hasn't calmed down and started flying straight until 350 or so". BT's are real predictable way out there, but I get erratic results with, say, a VLD until 300 yards. I read somewhere that it can be related to the crown. If a rifle has been cleaned 50 times with a steel rod, it might shoot FB ok, but BT won't exit the muzzle properly.



Myth #347



 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: Adrian Rude

[...] " that big boatail hasn't calmed down and started flying straight until 350 or so". BT's are real predictable way out there, but I get erratic results with, say, a VLD until 300 yards. I read somewhere that it can be related to the crown. If a rifle has been cleaned 50 times with a steel rod, it might shoot FB ok, but BT won't exit the muzzle properly.



Myth #347


Which part is the myth? The crown having an impact on a BT, or a BT needing some time to calm down?



 
Originally Posted By: Adrian RudeOriginally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: Adrian Rude

[...] " that big boatail hasn't calmed down and started flying straight until 350 or so". BT's are real predictable way out there, but I get erratic results with, say, a VLD until 300 yards. I read somewhere that it can be related to the crown. If a rifle has been cleaned 50 times with a steel rod, it might shoot FB ok, but BT won't exit the muzzle properly.



Myth #347



Which part is the myth? The crown having an impact on a BT, or a BT needing some time to calm down?



Both...

Re: Crown...

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/rifle-crown-1.php


Re: going to sleep:

As to bullets stabilizing at 350 yds (or any other range) - it is contrary to the most fundamental laws of physics - Newton's 1st and 2nd laws of motion (to which there has NEVER been an exception in 327-ish years).

If you can make a scientific case for bullets being unstable, and then getting stable (i.e., "going to sleep"), write it down, and mail it to the Nobel Prize Committee, Physics Division, Oslo Norway.

You will be guaranteed a Nobel Prize in physics (worth about $1,300,000 in US dollars), a major university named after you (probably in Boston or California) and a lifetime of income giving lectures in physics around the world, and your name will be whispered in awe in every university around the world for the next thousand years.

tt2.gif




 
Stinking boattails just wont shoot at 100.
grin.gif


Just for the record I shot both of these groups (one 3 shot and one 5 shot group) back to back during load development with the Berger 105 Hybrid.I revisited 100 one time since then, IIRC it shot in the low .2's. I mostly shoot this rifle at a local match, 300yrds 20 shot strings.If it stays 1/2moa at 300 for 20 shots in under 10 minutes I'm tickled to death.The rifle can do it I can't most of the time.

 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterVirtually all short range (100-300 yards) benchrest bullets are flat based.

At long range, the only difference is slightly less drop of boat tails because of higher BC. They are chosen for long range matches because of less wind drift.


This is exactly what I was going to say.

However, I have had excellent results with 69gr SMKs at shorter range also.......
 
Quote:Re: Crown...

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/rifle-crown-1.php


Re: going to sleep:

As to bullets stabilizing at 350 yds (or any other range) - it is contrary to the most fundamental laws of physics - Newton's 1st and 2nd laws of motion (to which there has NEVER been an exception in 327-ish years).

If you can make a scientific case for bullets being unstable, and then getting stable (i.e., "going to sleep"), write it down, and mail it to the Nobel Prize Committee, Physics Division, Oslo Norway.

You will be guaranteed a Nobel Prize in physics (worth about $1,300,000 in US dollars), a major university named after you (probably in Boston or California) and a lifetime of income giving lectures in physics around the world, and your name will be whispered in awe in every university around the world for the next thousand years.


thumbup.gif


Our monthly club matches alternated between the 100 yard reduced
NMC and the full range (200, 300 & 600 yd.) every month. We had one fellow that refused to shoot the reduced course because he claimed his bullets wouldn't "go to sleep" at short range.

Subject of lots of discussions but let it suffice to say that I have never heard of him being awarded the Nobel Prize (or winning the NM championship @ Perry, either for that matter).
lol.gif


Regards,
hm
 
Whenever I hear someone talk about a bullet "settling down", I want to pull my hair (what's left of it) out. I always give this example of how stupid the thought is...........Have you ever seen somebody throw a "loose" football that magically turned into a tight spiral after 15-20 yds? Nope, didn't think so.

As Cat stated.........it's physics.
 
Originally Posted By: 2muchgun

However, I have had excellent results with 69gr SMKs at shorter range also.......

Yeah, but you got them 'spensive rifles and you're a much better shot than I am ......
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: Adrian RudeOriginally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: Adrian Rude

[...] " that big boatail hasn't calmed down and started flying straight until 350 or so". BT's are real predictable way out there, but I get erratic results with, say, a VLD until 300 yards. I read somewhere that it can be related to the crown. If a rifle has been cleaned 50 times with a steel rod, it might shoot FB ok, but BT won't exit the muzzle properly.



Myth #347



Which part is the myth? The crown having an impact on a BT, or a BT needing some time to calm down?



Both...

Re: Crown...

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/rifle-crown-1.php


Re: going to sleep:

As to bullets stabilizing at 350 yds (or any other range) - it is contrary to the most fundamental laws of physics - Newton's 1st and 2nd laws of motion (to which there has NEVER been an exception in 327-ish years).

If you can make a scientific case for bullets being unstable, and then getting stable (i.e., "going to sleep"), write it down, and mail it to the Nobel Prize Committee, Physics Division, Oslo Norway.

You will be guaranteed a Nobel Prize in physics (worth about $1,300,000 in US dollars), a major university named after you (probably in Boston or California) and a lifetime of income giving lectures in physics around the world, and your name will be whispered in awe in every university around the world for the next thousand years.

tt2.gif

Geez dude, you can provide information without being a douchebag. I wasn't a physics major, just passing on what a friend of mine said. His statement mirrors my experience which is only practical, not scientific.
I guess with 8900 posts on an Internet forum, it easy to tell that you spend a lot more time punching keys than you do pulling triggers. It's really too bad that you're a peckerhead, you probably have useful knowledge.


 
Originally Posted By: Adrian RudeOriginally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: Adrian RudeOriginally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: Adrian Rude

[...] " that big boatail hasn't calmed down and started flying straight until 350 or so". BT's are real predictable way out there, but I get erratic results with, say, a VLD until 300 yards. I read somewhere that it can be related to the crown. If a rifle has been cleaned 50 times with a steel rod, it might shoot FB ok, but BT won't exit the muzzle properly.



Myth #347



Which part is the myth? The crown having an impact on a BT, or a BT needing some time to calm down?



Both...

Re: Crown...

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/rifle-crown-1.php


Re: going to sleep:

As to bullets stabilizing at 350 yds (or any other range) - it is contrary to the most fundamental laws of physics - Newton's 1st and 2nd laws of motion (to which there has NEVER been an exception in 327-ish years).

If you can make a scientific case for bullets being unstable, and then getting stable (i.e., "going to sleep"), write it down, and mail it to the Nobel Prize Committee, Physics Division, Oslo Norway.

You will be guaranteed a Nobel Prize in physics (worth about $1,300,000 in US dollars), a major university named after you (probably in Boston or California) and a lifetime of income giving lectures in physics around the world, and your name will be whispered in awe in every university around the world for the next thousand years.

tt2.gif





Geez dude, you can provide information without being a douchebag. I wasn't a physics major, just passing on what a friend of mine said. His statement mirrors my experience which is only practical, not scientific.
I guess with 8900 posts on an Internet forum, it easy to tell that you spend a lot more time punching keys than you do pulling triggers. It's really too bad that you're a peckerhead, you probably have useful knowledge.




Awe.. he has a mouth on him. Now we know what you shoot.

You shouldn't present girlie gossip as facts.

 
Originally Posted By: Adrian Rude

If a rifle has been cleaned 50 times with a steel rod, it might shoot FB ok, but BT won't exit the muzzle properly.



You're also wrong on this one, girlie garbage mouth.

One piece steel rods are as good as it gets, and will never damage a muzzle or rifling (assuming you know how to clean a rifle).

You need new friends to go to the powder room with.

 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: Adrian Rude

If a rifle has been cleaned 50 times with a steel rod, it might shoot FB ok, but BT won't exit the muzzle properly.



You're also wrong on this one, girlie garbage mouth.

One piece steel rods are as good as it gets, and will never damage a muzzle or rifling (assuming you know how to clean a rifle).

You need new friends to go to the powder room with.

 
I am currently looking for an article I read some time ago that explains this. Slow motion photos of both flat and bt. Seems that the boat tail allowed gasses to escape more on one side than another. The flat base left a doughnut shape of gasses and not an oval like the boat tail. Perhaps one reason why rebated boat tails are starting to pick up with custom bullet makers.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Adrian RudeI read somewhere that it can be related to the crown. If a rifle has been cleaned 50 times with a steel rod, it might shoot FB ok, but BT won't exit the muzzle properly.


LOL ... then I better throw all of my rifles away, because all but the new ones have been cleaned WAY more than that.

I'd throw away whatever it was that you read that in ... quickly.
 
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