Expected velocity out of 223 reloads

H

Huntingbob

New member
I’m not getting the velocity I was expecting out of my reloads.
I’m shooting a 18 inch black hole 223 barrel out of an AR.
I’m using cfe223 Winchester primers and hornady 60 gr soft point bullets.
I have worked up to and over the max load with no signed of pressure.
Here’s my results.
26.7 (max book load) I’m averaging 2803fps (book velocity is 3176)
26.9 avg 2830
27.0 avg 2842
Factory hornady 55 gr varmint express I’m averaging 2811 (advertised 3240)
Factory federal bulk 55gr fmj I’m averaging 3067
I know I’m loosing some velocity with a 18 inch barrel, but I was expecting more.
Although the federal seems correct( it also felt way hotter as I was shooting it)
My question is do these seem low? And is it ok to keep pushing past a max load untill signs show up?
 
What length barrel did the book use in testing. Bet it was 22-24" barrel. I go by the book as a guideline but don't believe everything in them. Barrels are like people, none the same. I've gotten more speed than what the book says ans also like you got a lot less. Powder lots are different and can affect velocity also. You might have a slower lot of powder or your barrel might be slower. A lot of the books use a universal receiver and run test loads off of that. As long as it shoots good I wouldn't worry about it or I would also try a different powder.
 
Work up to pressure signs, you've got a ways to go. I've got a 16" BHW and using 65gr SGK, 27.76gr CFE223, CCI450 primers and getting 3170fps. No pressure signs until the hottest days but I just dont use it then.

The polygonal twist barrels can take lots and lots of powder, of course be safe. With 60gr bullets I would maybe try a faster burning powder if you switch things up. CFE can be great, and seems to get better with stronger loads but it's very temp sensative and my favorite winter hunting ammo turns into 4+moa at summer temps.

The four BHW barrels I've loaded for all are very picky but when you get it in the sweet spot you're getting up to 200fps higher than land and groove barrels. I've been having the best year round luck with hodgdons extreme powders by moving to faster and faster burning powders until the bullet you're shooting shows pressure signs with the case 97%+ full of powder. Benchmark should be great for 60gr, it was a bit too slow burning for 53gr.

My guess is that you will be around compressing the CFE and getting around 3300fps.... let's be optimists!
 
Rock Knocker posts the highest velocities i have ever heard of.

I like that you have chono'ed factory ammo.

I have choron'ed 55gr LC NATO M193 out of a 16 inch barrel at a bit over 3020fps on a warm 70° day. That same day i ran M855 over it and came up with 2900fps + change.

On a cold day those numbers would be lower.

I almost always go until i see pressure, abnormal velocities, or the group deterioration. Generally speaking i get group deterioration and signs of pressure about the same time. Your accuracy window should be between 1/2 - 1 grain.

When i see NATO velocities i stop and think.

I think the Hornady manual uses a 223 REM chamber and a 26 inch barrel. They seem to be the most conservative.

A Wylde or a NATO chamber will decrease pressure and velocity. You will have to add powder in a larger chambered rifle to get the same pressures as a 223REM chambered rifle.

For best velocity with light- med weight bullets i have found H4895 with a CCI #41 primer to be the top performer with stick powders. I have not tried them all though. Nor do i care to.

What primer are you using? They can make a 40-50fps difference sometimes.

It is possible with NATO brass to not see much pressure until you blow a primer. Unlikely with CFE and lighter bullets though.

If you are getting several reloads without the primer pockets getting bigger you are likely not over pressure.

Save that brass from the max loads and just reload those over and over to find out.





 
Yeah I have done a lot of messing around and testing on my couple BHW barrels and I make my buddies 6.8 ammo for his two BHW guns. None of my velocity numbers come from a chrono ether, just drops at different ranges from a 100 yard zero and running ballistic calculator numbers.... but that is the only method ive ever used and its accurate to 1moa or less out to 1200 yards with certain rifles so I know it works.

I do throw any published loading data out the window when I'm loading for BHW barrels and magnum primers are a must have. Some of my loads might not just be over pressure for land and groove barrels but they might even be flat out dangerous in the wrong 223 barrel.

53gr TSX, 25.8gr H322, cci450 primers (way over book max) is giving me 8.5-9 inches of drop at 300 yards, measured over the winter down to 10 degrees. The brass and ejection pattern are indicating mediocre pressure at most.

65gr SGK, 27.76gr CFE223, cci450 is dropping a little over 10 inches if I remember correct.(my above 65SGK numbers are a bit fudged from memory testing a couple years ago, i think they're closer to 3100fps)

My 16" is getting over 3400fps with 53gr, I think an 18" should hit 3300 with 60gr. I've only tested CFE223 in my current barrel with 53vmax and that gave me a comical 12+moa, not enough of the bullets would hit paper to actually measure groups, and I loaded almost 100 rounds of that ammo because I figured something with my gun must be wrong but it shot my other loads fine. CFE223 really liked the heavier 65gr bullets though, i dont know what to expect from 60gr bullets.


P.S. Just two weeks ago I picked up a bore snake for my AR and I keep it in the grip of my AR. My rifle goes most the places I go and gunk like dust, fouling and bits of snow can cause these finicky BHW barrels to really throw a cold bore shot, running the bore snake through the gun before or after hunting and target shooting has settled that first shot down a lot. Or just do a lot better job than me keeping your bore clean.
 
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Originally Posted By: Rock KnockerWork up to pressure signs, you've got a ways to go. I've got a 16" BHW and using 65gr SGK, 27.76gr CFE223, CCI450 primers and getting 3170fps. No pressure signs until the hottest days but I just dont use it then.

The polygonal twist barrels can take lots and lots of powder, of course be safe. With 60gr bullets I would maybe try a faster burning powder if you switch things up. CFE can be great, and seems to get better with stronger loads but it's very temp sensative and my favorite winter hunting ammo turns into 4+moa at summer temps.

The four BHW barrels I've loaded for all are very picky but when you get it in the sweet spot you're getting up to 200fps higher than land and groove barrels. I've been having the best year round luck with hodgdons extreme powders by moving to faster and faster burning powders until the bullet you're shooting shows pressure signs with the case 97%+ full of powder. Benchmark should be great for 60gr, it was a bit too slow burning for 53gr.

My guess is that you will be around compressing the CFE and getting around 3300fps.... let's be optimists! Originally Posted By: Rock KnockerWork up to pressure signs, you've got a ways to go. I've got a 16" BHW and using 65gr SGK, 27.76gr CFE223, CCI450 primers and getting 3170fps. No pressure signs until the hottest days but I just dont use it then.

The polygonal twist barrels can take lots and lots of powder, of course be safe. With 60gr bullets I would maybe try a faster burning powder if you switch things up. CFE can be great, and seems to get better with stronger loads but it's very temp sensative and my favorite winter hunting ammo turns into 4+moa at summer temps.

The four BHW barrels I've loaded for all are very picky but when you get it in the sweet spot you're getting up to 200fps higher than land and groove barrels. I've been having the best year round luck with hodgdons extreme powders by moving to faster and faster burning powders until the bullet you're shooting shows pressure signs with the case 97%+ full of powder. Benchmark should be great for 60gr, it was a bit too slow burning for 53gr.

My guess is that you will be around compressing the CFE and getting around 3300fps.... let's be optimists!
I run the same barrel, bullet, and powder but haven’t pushed it that far, just curious what brass your using
 
I've chrono'ed a few pet 223 loads using Vihtavuori powder. Their test barrel is 25" and my barrel is 16" with a 1:7 twist - the 52, 55 and 64 grain loads are all about 300 fps slower than what the Vihtavuori data page quotes. The Winchester commercial 55 grain FMJ is travelling 2803 out of my AR.

I get real good accuracy using 27.7 gr of CFE223 with the 55 grain Hornady - only problem is after 6 reloads most of my primer pockets are shot and if I throttle down with CFE my groups open up to 2.5" plus!!! My cases are Winchester and Federal.

With VV N-133 and 2,600 fps, accuracy is acceptable and case life greatly improves.

If one wants velocity from the 223, I think a 24" barrel is probably minimum.
 
Thanks for the replies. I’m currently using Winchester small rifle primers wsr.
I’ll try increasing in .2 grain increments and see where it goes.
I’m using hornady brass if that makes a difference.
I reload for other calibers, but this is my first time for an AR.
 
I have a love hate relationship with BHW barrels, they do crazy things, crazy good and crazy bad.

They key to accuracy is powder stability, every bullet I have tried shoots 1moa or better, just not with all powders or all year long.

And I'm very captivated with the velocity potential. Polygonal twist keeps the pressurez low, tit for tat a land a groove barrel will shoot most ammo at higher velocities than poly twist because the land and grove builds more pressure BUT that decrease in pressure can be made up with more powder when using ball powders or with stick powders you can make up the pressure loss by using a faster burning powder and they will handle a lot of powder.

CFE223 with 65gr is the only load I've seen pressure signs with magnum primers even that was light ejector and extractor marks, 53vmax with a heavily compressed load of benchmark shows no pressure signs. 53gr TSX with a compressed load of H332 hardly flattens primers. They're just different animals than land and groove barrels.

My next adventure I want to try HBN bullet coating to decrease even more barrel pressure and see if I can gain more velocity from even faster burning powders. I haven't played with HBN before so I dont know just how much pressures will decrease... certainly H4198 will be no problem but 50gr bullets and CFEBLK?????
 
Rock knocker, wondering if you run suppressed? I have been cussing one of my black hole barrels, 16”, and I looked up my notes and I tried 65 game kings with cfe, lake city brass and cci 400’s, I ran up to 27 grains and best I could get was 1” at 26 grains, 27 grains gave me 2 1/2” groups. Brass was getting beat up pretty bad but primers we’re still ok but I have since switched to magnums. I was wondering if the can was part of the problem. Sorry to hijack the thread, and definitely stay away from the wsr primers running them hot, they like to pierce
 
I really think 3075fps for 55 grain bullets is pushing it with an 18 inch barrel
I also think 2975fps is pushing hard with 60's out of an 18 inch barrel.

You can push harder than that. But why? Drop and drift are not going to change all that much with another 50fps.

That is from my personal experience with my rifles.

I throw my chronograph on the ground 10 feet in front of me and shoot prone over the top. Set up takes 2 minutes.

Keep adding powder until you get to those numbers, bad accuracy or marred brass. I have found CFE223 shoots better at lower charges weights in my rifles. It can go to way fast velocities without pressure. But accuracy was a thing of the past up there for me.

Hey Kooman,

Have you ever pierced a WSR primer? I have used those for ball powders for years. Always been a favorite. I have never pierced a primer.

Also, IMHO... If you are doing accuracy testing on how a barrel shoots, CFE would be one of my lasts choices

 
arlaunch said:
I really think 3075fps for 55 grain bullets is pushing it with an 18 inch barrel
I also think 2975fps is pushing hard with 60's out of an 18 inch barrel.

You can push harder than that. But why? Drop and drift are not going to change all that much with another 50fps.

That is from my personal experience with my rifles.

I throw my chronograph on the ground 10 feet in front of me and shoot prone over the top. Set up takes 2 minutes.



Hey Kooman,

Have you ever pierced a WSR primer? I have used those for ball powders for years. Always been a favorite. I have never pierced a primer.

Yes I have pierced several in my 6.5 Grendel and also in a 223 Wylde with white oak barrel, both were getting to the upper end in the charge with cfe223 and rl-15. I quit using them after that. That’s just my experience anyway, I do have buddies that use them without problems
Click to expand...
 
There is little point to pushing things crazy hard, but one of the only benefits I've seen from a BHW barrel is being able to push things, velocity is what they're good at, accuracy is trickier. They keep pressures down so much it's hard to even push things, you got to go way off the charts to do it.

When I started loading the 65gr it was for a possibility of a hog hunt in the future and I wanted to bring my AR and I wanted something that would hit hard. In my first test batch I shot the best group my gun ever shot, way up at the highest charge I had brought to test, I had it labeled "DANGER". Light pressure signs and not good for brass longevity but this ammo has a mission and 25% of the brass stays in the snow or grass after the first loading, I only shoot them in the winter and less than 100 shots a year.

H335 shoots well in my gun at light or strong loadings with 50-55gr bullets and non magnum primers. Stick powders seem better when pushed hard but accuracy comes apart if the powder is compressed and it pretty much all compresses before pressure signs, you need to move way up in bullet weight or move to a faster burning stick powder.

Here's my one time freak small 3 shot group with this little carbine with CFE and 65 SGK, dont make fun of the target, I look through a 1-4 VXR with fat crosshairs and big circles are easiest to center on.
49667845496_a83edc137a_c.jpg
 
So is it safe to keep working up with wsr primers, them when I get some switch over to magnum primers, or would I have to work back up? Also I’m a little hesitant keep going up with cfe in this 30-40 deg weather if it’s going to change a bunch when it warms up.
 
I would also keep an eye on ES and STD Dev while working up. Best ammunition in my mind is most accurate and most consistent. Can always crank your scope up for drop.
Good Luck!
 
I would feel plenty safe starting at 27gr CFE223 with magnum primers and 60gr bullet.

You could benefit from a more temp stable powder, CFE is about as bad as it gets for temp stability. But it really isnt rocket science to figure it out and make a warm weather and cold ammo with the CFE.

Keep it posted, I'm really interested and I'm not sure if i want another BHW or not but I've been thinking of 18" or 20".
 
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So does the switch to a magnum primer alone give you a velocity increase? Or does it allow you to up the charge before you run into any primer issues which in turn increases velocity.
 
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