Down side to .223 AI

Originally Posted By: AckmanThere's really no downside to 223AI except that a Remington might need a couple little tweeks to make it feed properly. But your magazine setup apparently has no problems, so that's not a factor.

There's a lot of crap being thrown around on AI threads. First, with AI's there's no "fireforming" loads per se. There's NO working up 2 loads. Don't listen to that stuff. Start a little below what your manual says is max for the std. case and work up from there just like any other cartridge. When you reach most accuracy, that's your fireform load. It'll be more powder than max for the std. case and it'll be faster.....between a max .223 load and a 223AI load. Accuracy will be just as good. Realize that it's a hunting/ field load, not a "fireform" load. I shoot 50's in that case and can't tell you about 65/70's...... fireforming with 50's is about 75-100fps more than a std. 223, and formed cases are about 175-200 fps more than std .223.....this is depending on which bullet/weight/powder.

You've found a best/most accurate load while fireforming, with formed cases it'll be the same only just a little more. Very easy.

Then about loss of barrel life while "fireforming." Well, fireform loads are field loads. The "fireform" load will be maybe 1 -1.5gr more than a std. 223.......talk about using up the barrel is pure nonsense. The formed AI case will use about 2gr more than std. 223 - depending on bullet/powder......again, difference in barrel life is negligible.




Sounds a little contradictory....when you change the amount of powder used within a range it is working up a new load is it not?
 
Originally Posted By: TURBO6046Originally Posted By: AckmanThere's really no downside to 223AI except that a Remington might need a couple little tweeks to make it feed properly. But your magazine setup apparently has no problems, so that's not a factor.

There's a lot of crap being thrown around on AI threads. First, with AI's there's no "fireforming" loads per se. There's NO working up 2 loads. Don't listen to that stuff. Start a little below what your manual says is max for the std. case and work up from there just like any other cartridge. When you reach most accuracy, that's your fireform load. It'll be more powder than max for the std. case and it'll be faster.....between a max .223 load and a 223AI load. Accuracy will be just as good. Realize that it's a hunting/ field load, not a "fireform" load. I shoot 50's in that case and can't tell you about 65/70's...... fireforming with 50's is about 75-100fps more than a std. 223, and formed cases are about 175-200 fps more than std .223.....this is depending on which bullet/weight/powder.

You've found a best/most accurate load while fireforming, with formed cases it'll be the same only just a little more. Very easy.

Then about loss of barrel life while "fireforming." Well, fireform loads are field loads. The "fireform" load will be maybe 1 -1.5gr more than a std. 223.......talk about using up the barrel is pure nonsense. The formed AI case will use about 2gr more than std. 223 - depending on bullet/powder......again, difference in barrel life is negligible.




Sounds a little contradictory....when you change the amount of powder used within a range it is working up a new load is it not?

You're not understanding the quotation marks. Or any of it.
 
Originally Posted By: TURBO6046Originally Posted By: AckmanThere's really no downside to 223AI except that a Remington might need a couple little tweeks to make it feed properly. But your magazine setup apparently has no problems, so that's not a factor.

There's a lot of crap being thrown around on AI threads. First, with AI's there's no "fireforming" loads per se. There's NO working up 2 loads. Don't listen to that stuff. Start a little below what your manual says is max for the std. case and work up from there just like any other cartridge. When you reach most accuracy, that's your fireform load. It'll be more powder than max for the std. case and it'll be faster.....between a max .223 load and a 223AI load. Accuracy will be just as good. Realize that it's a hunting/ field load, not a "fireform" load. I shoot 50's in that case and can't tell you about 65/70's...... fireforming with 50's is about 75-100fps more than a std. 223, and formed cases are about 175-200 fps more than std .223.....this is depending on which bullet/weight/powder.

You've found a best/most accurate load while fireforming, with formed cases it'll be the same only just a little more. Very easy.

Then about loss of barrel life while "fireforming." Well, fireform loads are field loads. The "fireform" load will be maybe 1 -1.5gr more than a std. 223.......talk about using up the barrel is pure nonsense. The formed AI case will use about 2gr more than std. 223 - depending on bullet/powder......again, difference in barrel life is negligible.




Sounds a little contradictory....when you change the amount of powder used within a range it is working up a new load is it not?

I'll try to 'splain it.

If you have two similar cases and one is a little bit larger in volume, like a 223 and a 223-AI, then the AI case will have a little more room and use a little more powder and give a little more velocity.

So, for the sake of discussion, lets say that the max load for the straight 223 is 25gr of "Blastmaster" powder, and the max load (same pressure) for the AI is 27gr.

Now, when you are working up a load for the AI with new 223 cases, and you are moving up and looking for "the usual suspects", you are actually working up the the AI, and NOT a fire forming load, because...

When the primer lights the powder in a 223 case, the volume of the standard 223 case is no longer the limiting factor, because halfway through the burning process, the 223 case expands and becomes larger, so before you reach max pressure, you are now dealing with a larger case, so you are dealing with the pressure curves of the AI version, and NOT the pressure curves of the straight 223 version...

... so in simple terms, use normal cases, and increase the load with the powder and bullet you want, until you have reached the max load for the AI version, and you will be a happy camper.

OK??

Say yes
wink.gif


.
 
my 223 AI-14 twist has about 4000 rounds down the pipe. Throat shows some alagator hide, still shoots groups in the .225 range(3 shot) and groups in the .150 range are common, with a variety of powders, especially AA2015, N-133,N-135, Benchmark, and 2202 all with 50-55g bullets. This barrel started out with zero freebore, and still has not grown much in leade. 55g Nosler ballistic tips are seated just above the shoulder neck junction.
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: TURBO6046Originally Posted By: AckmanThere's really no downside to 223AI except that a Remington might need a couple little tweeks to make it feed properly. But your magazine setup apparently has no problems, so that's not a factor.

There's a lot of crap being thrown around on AI threads. First, with AI's there's no "fireforming" loads per se. There's NO working up 2 loads. Don't listen to that stuff. Start a little below what your manual says is max for the std. case and work up from there just like any other cartridge. When you reach most accuracy, that's your fireform load. It'll be more powder than max for the std. case and it'll be faster.....between a max .223 load and a 223AI load. Accuracy will be just as good. Realize that it's a hunting/ field load, not a "fireform" load. I shoot 50's in that case and can't tell you about 65/70's...... fireforming with 50's is about 75-100fps more than a std. 223, and formed cases are about 175-200 fps more than std .223.....this is depending on which bullet/weight/powder.

You've found a best/most accurate load while fireforming, with formed cases it'll be the same only just a little more. Very easy.

Then about loss of barrel life while "fireforming." Well, fireform loads are field loads. The "fireform" load will be maybe 1 -1.5gr more than a std. 223.......talk about using up the barrel is pure nonsense. The formed AI case will use about 2gr more than std. 223 - depending on bullet/powder......again, difference in barrel life is negligible.




Sounds a little contradictory....when you change the amount of powder used within a range it is working up a new load is it not?

I'll try to 'splain it.

If you have two similar cases and one is a little bit larger in volume, like a 223 and a 223-AI, then the AI case will have a little more room and use a little more powder and give a little more velocity.

So, for the sake of discussion, lets say that the max load for the straight 223 is 25gr of "Blastmaster" powder, and the max load (same pressure) for the AI is 27gr.

Now, when you are working up a load for the AI with new 223 cases, and you are moving up and looking for "the usual suspects", you are actually working up the the AI, and NOT a fire forming load, because...

When the primer lights the powder in a 223 case, the volume of the standard 223 case is no longer the limiting factor, because halfway through the burning process, the 223 case expands and becomes larger, so before you reach max pressure, you are now dealing with a larger case, so you are dealing with the pressure curves of the AI version, and NOT the pressure curves of the straight 223 version...

... so in simple terms, use normal cases, and increase the load with the powder and bullet you want, until you have reached the max load for the AI version, and you will be a happy camper.

OK??

Say yes
wink.gif


.



This sure isnt any hard and fast rule. It has nothing to do with fireforming and finding a your highest velocity accuracy node for your AI case. Dealing with pressures is one thing. Like I have already posted, the highest velocity accuracy node for my 260AI, the 27.76gr of H4831sc cant even be put into a 260 case.

I want nothing to do with an argument, maybe Im missing something. How can your theory explain my situation? Anyone trying to shoot heavy for caliber bullets(kinda like the OP wanting to shoot 60-70gr) is going to run into this if they are maxing their AI cases with slow powders.
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: TURBO6046Originally Posted By: AckmanThere's really no downside to 223AI except that a Remington might need a couple little tweeks to make it feed properly. But your magazine setup apparently has no problems, so that's not a factor.

There's a lot of crap being thrown around on AI threads. First, with AI's there's no "fireforming" loads per se. There's NO working up 2 loads. Don't listen to that stuff. Start a little below what your manual says is max for the std. case and work up from there just like any other cartridge. When you reach most accuracy, that's your fireform load. It'll be more powder than max for the std. case and it'll be faster.....between a max .223 load and a 223AI load. Accuracy will be just as good. Realize that it's a hunting/ field load, not a "fireform" load. I shoot 50's in that case and can't tell you about 65/70's...... fireforming with 50's is about 75-100fps more than a std. 223, and formed cases are about 175-200 fps more than std .223.....this is depending on which bullet/weight/powder.

You've found a best/most accurate load while fireforming, with formed cases it'll be the same only just a little more. Very easy.

Then about loss of barrel life while "fireforming." Well, fireform loads are field loads. The "fireform" load will be maybe 1 -1.5gr more than a std. 223.......talk about using up the barrel is pure nonsense. The formed AI case will use about 2gr more than std. 223 - depending on bullet/powder......again, difference in barrel life is negligible.




Sounds a little contradictory....when you change the amount of powder used within a range it is working up a new load is it not?

I'll try to 'splain it.

If you have two similar cases and one is a little bit larger in volume, like a 223 and a 223-AI, then the AI case will have a little more room and use a little more powder and give a little more velocity.

So, for the sake of discussion, lets say that the max load for the straight 223 is 25gr of "Blastmaster" powder, and the max load (same pressure) for the AI is 27gr.

Now, when you are working up a load for the AI with new 223 cases, and you are moving up and looking for "the usual suspects", you are actually working up the the AI, and NOT a fire forming load, because...

When the primer lights the powder in a 223 case, the volume of the standard 223 case is no longer the limiting factor, because halfway through the burning process, the 223 case expands and becomes larger, so before you reach max pressure, you are now dealing with a larger case, so you are dealing with the pressure curves of the AI version, and NOT the pressure curves of the straight 223 version...

... so in simple terms, use normal cases, and increase the load with the powder and bullet you want, until you have reached the max load for the AI version, and you will be a happy camper.

OK??

Say yes
wink.gif


.



Bein' as this stuff is so complicated......now he's probably more confused.
 


Originally Posted By: Ackman

"Bein' as this stuff is so complicated......now he's probably more confused."



Yeah... it's too complicated to continue.

Be good and shoot well.
 
Thanks for all the input, I have decided to to with the .223 improved, mostly just because I dont have one and want one, thats enough reason for me.
 
Really hoping to use the Sierra 65gr game king, coyotes and probably a doe or two. I hope this gun likes them,because I have quite a few of these bullets, if not, prob going to shoot the 69 gr MatchKing, or poss berger 70 gr VLD for target work, but really just want to find a solid load the the 65gr that will take me 500 yards.
 
Originally Posted By: philipNow neck that sucker down to .20 and have a .20-223AI then get you some 39gr. Blitz Kings and go to town.....

Wouldn't that be almost exactly the same as a standard .204 in performance if you did that?
 
Russ,

I`m sure they would be SUPER close.....

It`s the wildcatter in me......I can`t help it......REALLY.......
w00t.gif



Phil.
 
Originally Posted By: hate2workReally hoping to use the Sierra 65gr game king, coyotes and probably a doe or two. I hope this gun likes them,because I have quite a few of these bullets, if not, prob going to shoot the 69 gr MatchKing, or poss berger 70 gr VLD for target work, but really just want to find a solid load the the 65gr that will take me 500 yards.

Try the 75 A-Max with RL 15 in your AI load. They shoot great in my 8 twist past 600 yards, and they aren't expensive.
Varget and 69 SMK's shoot great for me in the FF'ing loads.

The Accuracy International mags feed the Ackley'ed brass as smooth as silk.
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Originally Posted By: CatShooter
I'll try to 'splain it.

If you have two similar cases and one is a little bit larger in volume, like a 223 and a 223-AI, then the AI case will have a little more room and use a little more powder and give a little more velocity.

So, for the sake of discussion, lets say that the max load for the straight 223 is 25gr of "Blastmaster" powder, and the max load (same pressure) for the AI is 27gr.

Now, when you are working up a load for the AI with new 223 cases, and you are moving up and looking for "the usual suspects", you are actually working up the the AI, and NOT a fire forming load, because...

When the primer lights the powder in a 223 case, the volume of the standard 223 case is no longer the limiting factor, because halfway through the burning process, the 223 case expands and becomes larger, so before you reach max pressure, you are now dealing with a larger case, so you are dealing with the pressure curves of the AI version, and NOT the pressure curves of the straight 223 version...

... so in simple terms, use normal cases, and increase the load with the powder and bullet you want, until you have reached the max load for the AI version, and you will be a happy camper.

OK??

Say yes
wink.gif



It does not get any easier to understand than that!
 
When I was fireforming my 22-250 AI cases I was getting 5/16" groups from a T/C Encore 16" bbl. When using fireformed cases I was not able to replicate those results. Now when I need to fireform more cases I just do it on a regular hunting trip.
 
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