Dog on Dog Agression?

Originally Posted By: knockemdownTell me something about your your 'protection dog', Tim.
You've eluded that this dog has been trained in human bite work, yet is off lead at your house. So, may I ask then, how does that dog know WHICH person is deemed a threat and when to bite? That "watchful eye" as you call it, where did that trait come from? Isn't that dog using good sense to gauge it's response to a potential threat?

If so, then can't a hunting dog possess that same sense about when to protect it's home/family yet not be protective over downed game?



Do you know anything about protection work? I am not asking that because I want to be a azz. I am asking that so I can explian things better.
People have a misconception about "protection dogs". They are not "guard dogs" there is a big difference.

A guard dog is used to guard property, which means anyone other than their owners are in trouble if they were to cross into the dogs territory. They are also known as sentry dogs. They are a medium to large size dog that will bite anyone other than the owners. Most homes do not own these types of dogs. You will find them mostly at car lots, or other places of business. They would not make for a good dog to have running around your house. To much of a liability.

Protection dogs on the other hand are bred and tested for a stable temperament. They can not be some crazy dog that has just a crazy prey drive. They have to be sociable as well as mindful of what they are told. There is a lot of training that is involved. I am not going to go into how to train one.

So you ask where did the trait come from "watchful eye"? Think about it. These kinds of dogs were bred for that purpose, as well as trained for it. I taught my dogs to stay close to my wife, my kid, and myself. They are not up the visitors azz watching every move they make, but they do stay close just in case. They are not just standing there either, they could be in the corner licking their nuts, but are awear of whats going on.

My dogs can be trusted to be let out at anytime and I do not have to worry about some kid on a bike or the meter guy walking into the yard being mauled to death. The dog will sound off if anyone comes into the yard, that is just a warning to let me know someone is here. Most people would not get out of their car, or walk through the yard just because the dog is very scary looking. I dont know about you, but if there is a doberman, or rott is someones yard I will do all that I can to bypass that yard. Protection dogs are not only used for biting but they are used as a deterrent.

Any more questions feel free to ask.

Tim
 
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Thanks for the reply, fellas. I'm not trying to be an azz either. And yes, I am familiar with protection work & dogs, French Ring & Schutzhund & the like.

My point was if that you can have a dog trained in protection work to use sound judgement, why then can't a hunting dog possess that same sense?

And remember, I'm talking about a dog that shows a willingness (drive) to protect his family/home, NOT an alligator at the tree. Can't a dog be the former, without being the latter, in your opinion, Tim?

Originally Posted By: TimA dog that you hunt with should never have any aggression toward people. Whats to stop them if they are out hunting and they just so happen to see someone walking or doing whatever and they bite them?

My point is that a good dog will have enough sense to realize there is NO need to protect anyone, or anything outside of his home/family environment. Is that too much to assume on my part?

Duane, I apologize for dragging you back into the debate, but may I ask you a question? If a strange truck pulls up to your spread, do your dogs show any form of protective instincts or is that considered unacceptable behavior?
 
Interesting topic and responses.

My opinion is aggression depends on the individual dog and
it's training. Some breeds are more aggressive then others
but it still comes down to the individual dog.
Not all dogs can be trained in aggression, etc.
Not all people can be trained in aggression either.

Our dogs are trained and know aggression towards us and
each other is a no-no. Even the puppies learn that.
Putting teeth on us is a big time no-no. Growling at us is
also not tolerated unless it's in fun. You can generally
tell the difference.

They have had a few small tiffs while trying to work out
and establish the alpha roll amoungst themselves. Nothing
serious.

As far as aggression towards people, it all depends on the
circumstances. You would not want to be a stranger and in
our pasture or house. Once you are properly introduced
then everything is fine. If the dogs thought you were a
threat to us, their livestock or property, then things would
not be fine.

Strange dogs are treated same as people.

Given the size of our dogs, strangers on our property is
generally not a problem.

No food aggression at our place. The outside dogs often
eat out of the same bowl. They take turns. Not uncommon
to see chickens or cats eating the dogs food at the same
time the dogs are eating. Not a problem

We have 7 dogs that work this way.
2 are real old mutts.
1 is a catahula
The rest are Great Pyreneese.
All get along.

Randy
 
I am not saying they cant. But why would you want that from a hunting dog? That goes back to what I was saying about a dog serving a purpose. Hunting dogs are for hunting, not taking on the job of protector.

The point I am trying to make is I "myself" would not tolerate in any way one of my hunting dogs to bite, or show any aggression toward a person. The dog may have sense, but mistakes do happen, and that is one mistake I am not willing to pay for.

So all in all, we will agree to disagree. I agree that you have stated your opinion very well. Just dont want you thinking that I got mad in any way.

Tim
 
You have to watch Tim, he is always flying off the deep end, and having tantrums. It is my opinion that Tim has far too much aggression, and will go for the throat if he sees an opportunity!! HA HA HA!!! Just kiddin. Tim is a heck of a guy, just a little bull headed.
 
I will admit I am a little bull headed. And yes, I do have a little bit of a aggression issue LOL.

I did not have those problems, until I meet you and Duane though LOL.

Did you decide to become a die hard member Jesse? LOL.

Give me a buzz when you get the chance. See ya this weekend.

Tim
 
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Tim
 
all of my hounds minus one will bite some1 if they come and "pose a threat" on my property. when they attacked the one guy he was screaming at my mom and he was throwin his hands all around....dogs can sense the uncomfort level...when the situation escilated they went after em. well long story short...im glad they did!!!! my dad and i werent home and they were protectin my mother and my siblings from the guy. he has means of hurting them. you take these hounds huntign they wont hurt a flea...its not their ground to be protectin. the one that is most likely at home to bite will lick your face off and ill bet everything i got on it. now if someone threatened me and he was in the cab thats a diff story.just my opinions guys but given past experiances i like a dog with agression.
 
Im not a dog expert by any means, but Ive never had a dog misbehave around kids, food, dogs etc...

When my dogs show ANY aggression at all towards me or food, kids, ball, bone, toy etc I beat the ever loving schit out of them! You think youve seen ground and pound in the UFC? Negative. I have NEVER hurt my dogs, but let them know whos boss and they understand. They dont fear me, but they respect me and know whos boss.
 
i definitly dont want my dogs fighting other dogs but what is everybodys opinion on this. i had my dog zip and my pup out working with them and had a prolly 80-90 pound lab come charging my pup. before he made it to him zip plowed him. he didnt bite him just got haired up and growled and stayed between him and scout. i pulled him away but really didnt scold him. the lab wasnt growling or anything but was running hard towards us.
 
Midwest,Zip is a dog worth keeping.He understands who is in his "pack",and will protect them.I saw a show on TV where a guy was riding his bike along a trail and was attacked by a bear.He had his two Boxers with him.They never tried to help him.Those dogs would have been gone if they were mine.I would protect my dogs and they better do the same for me.
 
Zip did EXACTLY what I'd expect any of my dogs to do. Dogs aren't dumb, they know what someone/something is threatening their pack and will defend it. He was spot on, in my opinion. Gunner won't fight other dogs, but I can sick him on the neighbor dogs when they enter our horse pasture. He'll plow and roll them, chase them to the edge of our property, then stand there and make sure they aren't coming back. I truly feel that is the whole idea that is going through their head when decoying, as well.

Now, if dogs fight in the kennels, here at my place, I'll definitely put the discipline on them. I don't allow fighting within the pack and remind them who's in charge. None of them show aggression to a human, and it would be a death sentence if they did. The exception would be if my property or family was in jeopardy.

Tony
 
Originally Posted By: TonyTebbeZip did EXACTLY what I'd expect any of my dogs to do.
Yep, exactly. My pup darn near backflipped a rampant Rottie that charged us off leash. With every other dog he's interacted with, he's fine. With the exception that if another male tries dominating (azz humping) him, he lets that other dog know that it ain't gonna happen. Then he'll go about his business & ignore that dog...

Quote:Dogs aren't dumb, they know what someone/something is threatening their pack and will defend it.

Exactly, this has been my point all along. But I still question why it is acceptable for a dog to "protect" its family from another dog or animal, yet unacceptable to "protect" against a human, if the dog senses are piqued? I really think they CAN tell the difference & shouldn't be culled for displaying such behavior...
(I'm still agreeing to disagree
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)

Quote: Gunner won't fight other dogs, but I can sick him on the neighbor dogs when they enter our horse pasture. He'll plow and roll them, chase them to the edge of our property, then stand there and make sure they aren't coming back. I truly feel that is the whole idea that is going through their head when decoying, as well.

Different subject altogether, but what good is a decoy dog if it runs the coyote off into the next county? Isn't a seasoned decoy dog supposed to gauge the aggression of the incoming coyote & react accordingly? Or are they supposed to attack/pursue until commanded(toned) off the coyote?

Of the videos I've seen of some great (to me) decoy dogs, none of them were very aggressive at all. If anything, it was completely the opposite, as seemed like they more enjoyed 'annoying' the resident coyotes with their presence and biting ONLY in self defense. It would appear as though these dogs had learned the 'game' and had got the coyotes just pizzed off enough for them to want to give chase. And hold the coyotes in the 'field of play' until more arrived, or daddy decided to shoot. But again, that's a different subject altogether...

Quote:Now, if dogs fight in the kennels, here at my place, I'll definitely put the discipline on them. I don't allow fighting within the pack and remind them who's in charge.
Absolutely, that goes without saying.

Quote: None of them show aggression to a human, and it would be a death sentence if they did. The exception would be if my property or family was in jeopardy.
So it's OK then for your dogs to show aggession against a human IF your family is being threatened?
If a dog can tell the difference between a dog and a coyote & be aggressive toward one & not the other, it [beeep] well better know the difference between a passive human and a legitimate threat posed by a stranger, no?
 
That's what I'm saying. The only exception would be if someone posed a threat, like grabbing one of us or kicking int he door. Otherwise, my dogs are pretty happy go lucky dogs around anyone that comes here or hunts with. Only once has Gunner showed aggression to a human. I was dropping hunters off at the motel about 2am after night calling, when the motel bar/lounge was letting out. One dude came up to my window, drunk as a skunk, and asked what we were hunting. As soon as he leaned into my door, Gunner jumped up and growled in his face. He must of sensed something about the guy, as he's never done it before or since...and he's been around a ton of people.

You are correct on the decoying. I guess what I was trying to say, is that a dog hunts with me as his pack leader. His job is to defend our area of incoming coyotes. He'll charge out, pick a fight, then come running back. Almost like it's in their head to defend their pack. Probably not the best analogy, but it came to mind when I was typing.

Tony
 
Thanks for replying so quickly, Tony. Your experience with that drunk guy is precisely the type of behavior that I was defending against culling for...
I work in a less than friendly environment & bring my pup to work with me everyday. His protective behavior toward obviously 'shady types' is a welcomed bonus to his otherwise friendly disposition. Frankly, I'd not own a dog that wasn't that way! He's coonhunted with 3-4 other dogs twice his size along with several strangers & gets along just fine...

Dog behavior has been an interest of mine for a while now & I think that recognizing what makes a particular dog 'tick' is an integral step in molding them to perform a given task to your expectations...

good discussion!
 
Interesting discussion. As has been remarked previous, every dog has it's own traits/behaviors.

Late 60's early 70's my Dad owned 4 male sighthounds & 1
male trailhound. One of his sighthounds was a Greyhound/Alaskian Malamute cross. Dog had an all around agressive nature.

Dog weighed around 85 lbs. Dad also had 3 other large male Greyhounds previous to buying the hybred. He kept them altogether in a shed. Except for the trailhound, which was penned seperately.

The hybred forced his dominance on the other dogs. One by one, he beat them all up. One day later in the yr. The hybred was fighting one of the other males.

Unlucky for the hybred, the other 2 males joined in[payback time I suspect]. Dad heard the fight & ran into the shed. All 3 Greyhounds had that hybred pinned down on the ground & were trying to kill it. Dad pulled them off.

Shortly after buying that hybred. one day as Dad was feeding all of those dogs in the shed. The hybred growled & shown his fangs towards Dad. Dad grabbed that dog by the throat & threw him down, pinning the dog to the ground. Dad then bit that dog's ear, as he looked him in the eye. Hybred was submissive to Dad after that. No future sign of agression from then on. But that hybred continued his dominance over the other 3 sighthounds.
 
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Originally Posted By: Tim7581
I will have a at least one dog, if not two for biting. They are not used as "guard dogs", they are very stable and only bite when the time is needed. They can be trusted to be let outside without a chain, lead, ect.. and will not leave the yard, and if someone was to come here and meant no harm, they will gladly let them in "with a watchful eye of course".

Tim

I don't own a hunting dog, just a spoiled yellow lab that rides shotgun in my truck and spooks trout in streams before I can catch them..
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. I never take it hunting with me.

That "watchful eye" comment made me laugh - reminded me of a buddy's Male Rothweiler. Thor always had a watchful eye when I showed up - he wanted to make sure that I was holding a Burger King Bag with 2 cheesburgers that were intended as a his treat.
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..
 
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