Colorado Wildlife Commission to ban Varmint hunting

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One of the arguements the animal rights groups use is the lead bullet left inside the PD carcasses. How much lead could there be after a .22-250 55 grain bullet shoots clear through the little buggers?

Let the animal rights people gather scientific evidence if they want to use that arguement; it is not for the world of theory.

Just a thought.....



Karl, you are exactly right.....on the facts.

However, we have to remember these folks don't work on facts, they play something far stronger....emotion. Dealing in facts, they lose and they know that. So they play the stronger card. Videos of exploding PD's, bloody carcasses, bubba and the boys uttering obscene comments, furry-fuzzy, cute little creatures against big mean guys with exploding bullets, etc., etc. are the tools they will use.

Sometimes trying to educate the uneducated is insurmountable.

Not trying to be negative; however, we have to understand how the game is being played before we can compete.
 
U know it's pretty amazing to think that for all their efforts the bottom line is that they are truly contradictory to their own philosophies thinking that PD shooting is BAD for the species. Just goes to show you that their main focus is an emotional issue they can't get beyond to see the truth, and also that they don't really care about the PD as a species.

All those college degrees and all the $ they raise. Think they would even consider that they may be wrong? No way man.
 
Quote:
Quote:
One of the arguements the animal rights groups use is the lead bullet left inside the PD carcasses. How much lead could there be after a .22-250 55 grain bullet shoots clear through the little buggers?

Let the animal rights people gather scientific evidence if they want to use that arguement; it is not for the world of theory.

Just a thought.....



Karl, you are exactly right.....on the facts.

However, we have to remember these folks don't work on facts, they play something far stronger....emotion. Dealing in facts, they lose and they know that. So they play the stronger card. Videos of exploding PD's, bloody carcasses, bubba and the boys uttering obscene comments, furry-fuzzy, cute little creatures against big mean guys with exploding bullets, etc., etc. are the tools they will use.

Sometimes trying to educate the uneducated is insurmountable.

Not trying to be negative; however, we have to understand how the game is being played before we can compete.



SO TRUE!!
 
Time to go hear that sweet sound again!!


BOOM.............................WHOP!!!!!!


I'll be doing the final sight-in Sunday. Then slaving over the loading bench for the next week or so. After that will be a celebratory hunt on a new town....................


Thanks everyone for pitching in and buying us a little more time!
 
http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres...ianpetition.pdf

Read the first paragraph of page 2. We'd better start getting our defenses ready regarding this now ....this is going to be the next line of attack, ala' California.

DOW comments regarding "non-expanding" bullets surprise me. You'd think they, of all people, would know better. They will, of course, see the folly in the use of NE bullets in cattle country, and their next step will be "non-lead" bullets.

Please pay particular attention to the part that references the gradual phase-out of lead shot in waterfowl hunting.

The next attack will be either along these lines, or a ballot initiative eliminating pdog shooting all together.

I'm hazy on the process....how does a ballot initiative work? At some point, does a representative or Senator have to sponsor it?

Mike
 
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I'm hazy on the process....how does a ballot initiative work? At some point, does a representative or Senator have to sponsor it?

Mike



I believe all you need is enough signed petitions to get an issue on a ballot. I dont know how many that is. I could be wrong though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
Sorry this is so long, some of it is two cut and pasted press releases. In the spirit of know your opposition, I just thought this info was interesting:

In Tom Remington, Dir of DOW's memo, he wrote about how many on our side pointed to the WildEarth Guardians efforts as being a 'toe in the door' for further hunting restrictions. He validated this concern, citing a previous effort by Sinapu when in the recent past it apparently sued the CO DOW to ban ALL trapping after 'Amendment 14' was passed with the intent of ONLY banning "unethical leg hold and body-gripping snares." He clearly advised the commissioners of these ARA's tactics.

Given this Sinapu's previous efforts, it was interesting to me that they merged with the Forest Guardians to become the WildEarth Guardians, complete with a $1.5 mil budget and now including CO offices in both Denver and Boulder. Their plans and tactics are clear as day.

Like others here, my guess is that they aren't just going away any time soon. I believe this war will consist of numerous battles in several arenas, from p/r to the courts and ballot box.

Consider organizing with the other groups on our side. It's a pain in the a$$ but these WildEarth people have a decent budget and p/r like this gets them more $$$. I'd say keep the NRA-ILA on this, too. Be proactive, not just reactive. The time to hit them back is now, before they take their next action. Look at their finances, are they properly structured to permit political activity? Look at their people. Do they all pay their taxes? Any have wants warrants, etc.? Everybody current on their child support? You get the idea.

How about letters to the editor of every CO newspaper? Some possible points to raise: Thank the CWC for its reliance on science and the law to reach its decision on 'rodent control.' This is a great service that will save lots of livestock, especially horses and everybody would rather see a plague-ridden rodent (not too far from a RAT, really) go rather than a friendly, young girl-loving, personable, doe-eyed HORSE, wouldn't they? And shame on DU School of Law for permitting a student to write and file a petition containing demonstrably false allegations, not correctly supported by credible citations to authority. Clearly, the professor advisor wasn't exercising proper oversight of the students. DU has a responsibility to the community to at least be honest and ethical, blah, blah...

Proactive: Hit them now, en masse, to put THEM on the defensive. Just vary the different letters somewhat, but have each author mass email them to the CO papers. I'd do that asap, while this is still fresh in folk's minds. Also, what about talk radio there? Try to get this one the air as much as possible by calling into various local shows. Don't limit it to the hunting fishing shows, get on the local shows on the stations that carry Limbaugh, Hannity, etc.

Again, IMHO. I'm just presenting some ideas. I know these kinds of people all too well and I don't want anyone to underestimate what you are up against. They are like cockroaches. By publicising their defeat and their character as liars you will really help yourselves. Remember, these people believe their cause justifies them saying or doing anything to win. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Press Release

DATE: 1/28/2008


Conservation Groups Merge To Create a Force of Nature for the American West's Wild Places, Wildlife and Wild Rivers

Group Expands to Westwide Scope, Retains Fierce Approach - Forest Guardians and Sinapu, two regional conservation groups have joined forces to create a stronger organization to protect and restore wild places, wildlife and wild rivers of the West.


Santa Fe, NM - Forest Guardians and Sinapu, two regional conservation groups have joined forces to create a stronger organization to protect and restore the wild places, wildlife and wild rivers in the American West. The new organization, , creates a conservation force that will pressure policy-makers and government agencies to better protect and restore the lands, wildlife and waters from the Great Plains and Desert Southwest across the Rockies and through the Intermountain West.

For nearly two decades Sinapu, based in Boulder, Colorado, has worked to defend and restore large carnivores across the Southern Rockies while Forest Guardians has worked to protect and restore national forests, endangered species and rivers in the Greater Southwest. Integrating and expanding upon the two groups' specialties, WildEarth Guardians has four core programs: Wildlife, Wild Rivers, Wild Places and Climate & Energy.

"We've created a bigger, bolder and better organization to achieve our goals to restore wolves across the West, protect iconic western rivers such as the Rio Grande and keep wild places like the Sagebrush Sea intact," said John Horning, Executive Director of WildEarth Guardians. "With the merger and other staff additions we've assembled a powerful team of incredibly talented, passionate and hard-working advocates for wild nature," Horning added.

Both organizations collaborated closely over the last two years and agreed to merge a year ago. WildEarth Guardians will continue to do much of the same work, but has also amplified its strategic focus in several critical respects.

"The work of restoring and protecting wild carnivores will be enhanced considerably as a result of this merger," said Wendy Keefover-Ring, formerly of Sinapu, and now the Carnivore Protection Director for WildEarth Guardians. "We will have more resources to defend habitats and key corridors for large carnivores," she added.

Among WildEarth Guardians priorities are: restoring wolves to the American West, including protecting Mexican wolves in the Gila bioregion and reintroducing wolves to the Southern Rockies; protecting the Rio Grande from its headwaters in Colorado to the Gulf of Mexico; restoring keystone species such as prairie dogs across the American West; restoring wildfire as a natural and restorative process in healthy western forest ecosystems; abolishing the USDA's Wildlife Services wildlife-killing program; and inspiring residents of the West's urban and rural communities to become a cohesive and powerful voice for the protection of wild nature.

Two other new developments at WildEarth Guardians that parallel the merger announcement and name change include the creation of a new Climate & Energy program and the formal integration of the Sagebrush Sea Campaign into WildEarth Guardians.

The Sagebrush Sea Campaign, which had been a sponsored project of Forest Guardians until recently, focuses on protecting and restoring the vast sagebrush-steppe landscape in the Interior West. To protect native wildlife and ecosystems of the Sagebrush Sea, the Campaign Director, Mark Salvo, will lead WildEarth Guardians' efforts to obtain Endangered Species Act protection for the Greater sage-grouse, Columbian sharp-tailed grouse and Gunnison sage-grouse. These three iconic grouse species have dwindled precipitously in the recent past because of habitat destruction due to livestock grazing, energy exploitation, and urban development.

The Climate & Energy program will fight fossil fuel extraction including coal and oil and gas while promoting renewable energy and energy efficiency. "Unless we do more to bring about a shift away from dirty energy and towards clean, renewable energy and efficiency, the climate crisis is going to have a devastating effect on the wild places, wildlife and wild rivers of the American West," said Robert Ukeiley, the Climate & Energy Program Director for WildEarth Guardians.

WildEarth Guardians also has its own legal department. The organization has hired four staff attorneys over the last year to provide the legal muscle necessary to enforce environmental law and ensure that government agencies are protecting wildlands, imperiled species, biodiversity and clean air and water. In the past the organizations have relied exclusively on outside law firms.

"The law is one of our most powerful tools to protect our public lands and endangered species," said Jay Tutchton, WildEarth Guardians' general counsel, who has successfully brought about the protection of more than 100 endangered species. "By having experienced litigators on the Guardians team, we can move quickly and make sure that endangered species have a fighting chance."

WildEarth Guardians has 18 staff members-15 full-time and 3 part-time-and a budget of nearly $1.5 million in 2008. The group has offices in Denver, Boulder, Santa Fe and Phoenix as well as more than 10,000 members and e-activists from all across the country, the majority of whom live in the Four Corners states.

While the merger, name change and staff additions are each new and different, much will remain the same about the organization's work according to Horning. "A WildEarth Guardian is a staunch guardian for wild nature with legal and ethical duties in the same way that guardians are appointed by the courts to represent the interests of children. That core value has always been with us and it will always be at the heart of our work," continued Horning.

"Our mission is to protect the wild and we will use the law and mobilize the public to make sure wild nature in the West is defended and restored," said Horning. "This is an exciting time to be a Guardian-both new and old."

John Horning, Executive Director, 505-988-9126 x1153
Wendy Keefover-Ring, Carnivore Protection Director, 303-447-8655, x1
Mark Salvo, Sagebrush Sea Campaign Director, 503-757-4221

Staff Profile and Contact Information

Note that 4 are lawyers

Bryan Bird, MS is WildEarth Guardians’ Wild Places Program Director and has more than a decade of experience in National Forest policy and management. He is responsible for monitoring and challenging proposed activities on public lands such as off-road vehicles, logging, and road building that threaten ecologically significant areas within the Southern Rockies, the Gila Bioregion, and the Sagebrush Sea. He also oversees WildEarth Guardians' hands-on ecosystem restoration projects.
bbird@wildearthguardians.org, 505-988-9126 x1157

Rosie Brandenberger, WildEarth Guardians' Communications Director, is responsible for all marketing and public relations materials including the organization's newsletter, website, e-communications, brochures, advertisements, and distribution of press release releases. She also works with the Associate Director and Office Manager on event planning and preparation as well as fundraising appeals.
rbrandenberger@wildearthguardians.org, 505-988-9126 x1155

Lori Colt is the Office Manager of WildEarth Guardians’ Santa Fe location. Lori manages the membership database, coordinates public events and manages the organization’s volunteer and internship programs. Lori also manages the day-to-day office issues and provides support to all conservation staff.
lcolt@wildearthguardians.org, 505-988-9126 x1151

Rob Edward is the Carnivore Recovery Director for WildEarth Guardians. Rob has worked on issues pertaining to the restoration and protection of wolves and other carnivores since 1994. In his present capacity, he oversees the scientific, political and public policy aspects of the organization's efforts to restore wolves, grizzly bears, lynx, wolverine and other large carnivores to the American West.
redward@wildearthguardians.org, 303-447-8655 x2

Billie Gutgsell is WildEarth Guardians’ Outreach Coordinator. Billie works to build community awareness of and support for bears, cougars and other wildlife. Billie also manages the Boulder, Colorado office and works to support the staff located there.
bgutgsell@wildearthguardians.org, 303-447-8655

Melissa Hailey, JD, is a Staff Attorney for WildEarth Guardians. Melissa identifies and pursues legal challenges to reduce public lands grazing and protect endangered species and their habitats. Melissa’s work focuses on safeguarding the wildness of the Gila bioregion, a priority of which includes restoring viable populations of the Mexican gray wolf to the American Southwest.
mhailey@wildearthguardians.org, 505-988-9126 x1159

John Horning is the Executive Director of WildEarth Guardians and oversees all conservation programs. He directs the organization’s Wild Rivers program, the primary focus of which is to assure that federal and state water policies and agencies protect and restore western rivers and the endangered fish and wildlife that depend on them.
jhorning@wildearthguardians.org, 505-988-9126 x1153

Wendy Keefover-Ring, Carnivore Protection Director, works to advance progressive state and federal management policies for and to educate the public and decision-makers about wild native carnivores such as coyotes, black bears, and mountain lions. A long-standing conservation priority of her work is to reform the federal Wildlife Services agency, which kills approximately 2 million wild creatures annually.
wkeefover-ring@wildearthguardians.org, 303-447-8655 x1

Lauren McCain, PhD, Desert and Grassland Projects Director, works on protecting and restoring focal species and public lands in these fragile landscapes. Key projects include conserving biodiversity hotspots in the southern prairie; promoting stricter conservation standards on National Grasslands; and advancing Endangered Species Act protection of deserved grassland and desert wildlife including prairie dogs, lesser prairie-chicken, and mountain plovers.
lmccain@wildearthguardians.org, 303-573-4898

Jim Matison is WildEarth Guardians’ Restoration Projects Director and leads efforts to restore riparian/wetland ecosystems with hands-on habitat restoration projects on private, public, and state school trust lands. He also directs the organization’s restoration projects on National Forests, which entail closing roads as a means to restore forest ecosystems.
jmatison@wildearthguardians.org, 505-988-9126 x1154

Carol Norton, Associate Director for WildEarth Guardians, is responsible for development opportunities and works with donors, foundations and members. She also oversees all organization events as well as administrative tasks including financial accountability, information technology, and internal systems.
cnorton@wildearthguardians.org, 505-988-9126 x1150

Nicole Rosmarino, PhD directs the Wildlife Program at WildEarth Guardians, which works to protect and restore native wildlife and plants throughout the West. Nicole protects species on the brink through legal enforcement of the Endangered Species Act by catalyzing listings, critical habitat designations, and adequate recovery efforts.
nrosmarino@wildearthguardians.org, 505-988-9126 x1156


Mark Salvo, JD is Director of the Sagebrush Sea Campaign for WildEarth Guardians. The campaign focuses public attention and conservation resources on protecting and restoring the vast sagebrush-steppe landscape of the Interior West. Mark leads efforts to
obtain Endangered Species Act protection for the Greater sage grouse, Columbian sharp-tailed grouse and Gunnison sage grouse.
msalvo@wildearthguardians.org, 503-757-4221 (c)

Rebecca Sobel is the Conservation Organizer for WildEarth Guardians. Rebecca works to mobilize citizens to participate in priority conservation initiatives in order to create political support at state and federal levels for positive conservation decisions. She also manages the organization’s activist network.
rsobel@wildearthguardians.org, 505-988-9126 x1152

Jay Tutchton, JD is the organization’s General Counsel and in this role manages the legal staff and litigation docket. Either independently or with the assistance of outside counsel, he pursues litigation to advance WildEarth Guardians’ programs.
jtutchton@wildearthguardians.org, 720-301-3843 (c)

Robert Ukeiley, JD is the Director of the Climate and Energy Program as well as serving as a Staff Attorney for that program. He works on advocacy campaigns and litigation aimed at lessening the impacts from the use and extraction of fossil fuels as well as encouraging the use of renewable energy and energy efficiency.
rukeiley@wildearthguardians.org, 720-563-9306 (c)
 
This is the kind of thought process that we need to see more of. We are not trained law students with legal professors to guide us, but we have common sense. We need to form a Core Group that can contribute sound ideas and tactics such as this. Then we need a Tiger Team that can investigate and implement the recommendations of the Core Group.

This is an undertaking that we've never done before (unfortumately). It is also our last chance to do something to save hunting in America. If we don't act NOW and get in the fight, the ARA's will be handed an easy victory.
 
There are other states that have passed a law giving all the power to their DOW for making and uphold game laws. Therefore the voting general public has no say in the managment of wildlife. We need to look into that and how to get that infront of the state representatives. I believe that would be an easier battle then going head to head against the ARA's. They would be easier to sway to our side then the 3 million voters out there that have no earthly idea of what it takes to manage wildlife.
 
That would work, IF...... There would need to be a watchdog committee to make sure the ARA pukes don't work their way into the DOW. That's what happened in California. My cousin (in-law) was a high ranking administrator in the CA DOW. Years ago, he saw that the activists were begining to take low level jobs in the DOW. And then getting promoted. The infiltration had started. He tried to warn co-workers what he thought was happening, but no one seemed worried. By the time they listened, it was too late. They were successful, and now they are throughout the DOW.

He retired 2 years ago because he said it was useless, and he was tired of fighting a lost cause.
 
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There are other states that have passed a law giving all the power to their DOW for making and uphold game laws. Therefore the voting general public has no say in the managment of wildlife. We need to look into that and how to get that infront of the state representatives. I believe that would be an easier battle then going head to head against the ARA's. They would be easier to sway to our side then the 3 million voters out there that have no earthly idea of what it takes to manage wildlife.



I think that should be the main focus though. If we could accomplish this it would sure slow them down some.

Somebody else mentioned getting our own attorney--that's a great idea as far as i can see. Certainly wouldn't hurt. 1 thing's for sure, they know the ballot issue is their best bet. Most people don't make decisions with their brains once emotion kicks in--i mean look at all that education referenced above for the opposition. All those brains that aren't even being used. They can't even get beyond the cute and cudly concept. What can we expect from the voting public?
 
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That would work, IF...... There would need to be a watchdog committee to make sure the ARA pukes don't work their way into the DOW. That's what happened in California. My cousin (in-law) was a high ranking administrator in the CA DOW. Years ago, he saw that the activists were begining to take low level jobs in the DOW. And then getting promoted. The infiltration had started. He tried to warn co-workers what he thought was happening, but no one seemed worried. By the time they listened, it was too late. They were successful, and now they are throughout the DOW.

He retired 2 years ago because he said it was useless, and he was tired of fighting a lost cause.



I would have to say that if you want to try to do this you better talk to the DOW first. They may have other ideals and may not want to go there. I am not against this but would like to know if they wanted the change or not. If it was "NO" they would be on the other side try to stop it.
 
Someone has to know a lawyer that hunts. For cripes sake you turn over a rock and up pops a lawyer, this day in age. Not to use their services for free but just to bounce ideas off of. We need to find out who we need to talk to in the DOW and secondly we need to find some state representatives that hunt or are Pro Wildlife. I know Mark Udall altho he's a D seems to have his head on his shoulders about issues liek the RMNP elk.
 
Not to interupt forward progress but CONGRATULATIONS! You guys did awesome work. And, you're absolutely correct--keep looking forward. The ballot initiative process with some (OK, a lot of)emotion thrown in cost Oregon's houndsmen their sport. And, don't think you won't even find opposition within the hunting community. I beleive that was put into play with the Sportsmans Warehouse video issue. You see it all the time on this forum when hound hunting issues arise. We DO need to stand together whether it is an area of the shooting sports or a segment of gun rights we don't directly participate in, the Anti's will take one step at a time. Emotion is their primary weapon. Stand firm. And, again, congratulations. Tim
 
Sportsmans Warehouse had someone there at the meeting to set the record stright on the videos. He said that the videos were pulled because of lack of sells not because of the anti's or any other reason. Then he gave his own take on the pdog ban. One of many for our side.
 
I went out and tried sporting clays for the first time on Sunday. Truly a humbling experience, but that's another story.

Here's my problem, based on the Forest Guardians philosophy, should I have retrieved those few birds I hit and taken them home for consumption? I didn't and now I'm wondering if I made a mistake. They were "birds".

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You may have a point there. Those predators that feed on broken clay targets could ingest lead, couldn't they?

That makes it more complicated. Maybe I should call Nicole.

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