Brownells has them for 199 but also free shipping w/code:
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools...-prod81507.aspx
Regards,
hm
Carbon fouling from Hades - old school rules
- Thread starter DAA
- Start date
Brownells has them for 199 but also free shipping w/code:
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools...-prod81507.aspx
Regards,
hm
Ackleyman
If you see this and while we’re fresh on the cleaning subject. Have you ever tried the heavy nylon brushes in place of the bronze brushes? Just thought they might be easier on a new custom barrel, if they would scrub the fouling out close to the way the bronze brush does.
Thanks Mark.
Edit: I saw where Adam mentioned bore guides. Was going to say Mike Lucas is still making his good guides. Ordered some on the 12th and he sent E-Mail that they shipped on the 21th.
If you see this and while we’re fresh on the cleaning subject. Have you ever tried the heavy nylon brushes in place of the bronze brushes? Just thought they might be easier on a new custom barrel, if they would scrub the fouling out close to the way the bronze brush does.
Thanks Mark.
Edit: I saw where Adam mentioned bore guides. Was going to say Mike Lucas is still making his good guides. Ordered some on the 12th and he sent E-Mail that they shipped on the 21th.
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I put that scope at the top of my need to get list.
I never bought one before due to the cost, but that's pretty reasonable.
I never bought one before due to the cost, but that's pretty reasonable.
McGraw, heavy nylon will remove metal, unlike what you might think...according to the machinist manual.
I would not rate myself an expert in plastic brushes, but I really like those two brands of brushes.
I do use Montana Extreme plastic brushes and Issio plastic brushes, they are very stiff. Looking through my Hawkeye, it seems that carbon gets caked in at the intersection of the bottom of the groove where the lands starts up. This corner is particularly difficult to clean. It maybe my particular bad observation that the size of the bristle may allow finer cleaning in the corner.
Please do not be scared of bronze bristle brushes. The thing to be scared of is a NON centered cleaning rod rubbing the edges of a throat, the cleaning rod needs to have a bushing on it that centers the rod in the bore guide.
Neil Jones came up with the first "guided" rod guide, Lucas copied Jones, and they are both teriffic...money well spent. Rod guides do not wear out, pass them on to your grand kids.
Since this is a Hunting site, we shoot some serious over bore cases, and I love them. Proper cleaning keeps the barrel up and running at it's peak. I am working on a hard fouler in the garage right now...factory barrel that is a copper pig.
I find myself using more and more of the Montana Extreme copper cream on hard foulers as a start. 4 wet patches then brushing with the copper cream.
In all the posts on Predator Masters, there are two posts that are stellar, GC's post on shot gun patterns, DAA's post on this fouling removal. I commend both of them on a fantastic job in helping everyone and we appreciate their efforts!
I would not rate myself an expert in plastic brushes, but I really like those two brands of brushes.
I do use Montana Extreme plastic brushes and Issio plastic brushes, they are very stiff. Looking through my Hawkeye, it seems that carbon gets caked in at the intersection of the bottom of the groove where the lands starts up. This corner is particularly difficult to clean. It maybe my particular bad observation that the size of the bristle may allow finer cleaning in the corner.
Please do not be scared of bronze bristle brushes. The thing to be scared of is a NON centered cleaning rod rubbing the edges of a throat, the cleaning rod needs to have a bushing on it that centers the rod in the bore guide.
Neil Jones came up with the first "guided" rod guide, Lucas copied Jones, and they are both teriffic...money well spent. Rod guides do not wear out, pass them on to your grand kids.
Since this is a Hunting site, we shoot some serious over bore cases, and I love them. Proper cleaning keeps the barrel up and running at it's peak. I am working on a hard fouler in the garage right now...factory barrel that is a copper pig.
I find myself using more and more of the Montana Extreme copper cream on hard foulers as a start. 4 wet patches then brushing with the copper cream.
In all the posts on Predator Masters, there are two posts that are stellar, GC's post on shot gun patterns, DAA's post on this fouling removal. I commend both of them on a fantastic job in helping everyone and we appreciate their efforts!
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Thanks for all the feedback, appreciate it.
Tim, I have some Rem. 40X on the shelf, it was gonna be next
. I also have a full assortment of Brownell's silicon carbide lapping paste on the shelf. If brushing with C4 was hand to hand combat, I was eyeballing the silicon carbide as the nuke it from space option, ha-ha!
And thanks for the too kind words Keith, appreciate that too!
Corners are definitely where fouling likes to gather and hide. I think those intense pellets might be advantageous for that, maybe. The way they fit on the special jag, you just turn the rod with the pellet in the bore and it swells and tightens and with the bronze bristles embedded in them, I think they might be good corner cleaners. More time with them and checking with the Lyman will tell.
I'm not sure exactly what factor or combination of factors combined to have this one get so far away from me. End of the day, my cleaning practices are to blame, that's a given. But all my other barrels that have had pretty much the same cleaning routine, are all fine. But, I'll not be complacent about any of them. The bore scope is a great tool for not letting another one go haywire like this, that is for sure. Sure do wish it would fit in the .17's though!
- DAA
Tim, I have some Rem. 40X on the shelf, it was gonna be next
And thanks for the too kind words Keith, appreciate that too!
Corners are definitely where fouling likes to gather and hide. I think those intense pellets might be advantageous for that, maybe. The way they fit on the special jag, you just turn the rod with the pellet in the bore and it swells and tightens and with the bronze bristles embedded in them, I think they might be good corner cleaners. More time with them and checking with the Lyman will tell.
I'm not sure exactly what factor or combination of factors combined to have this one get so far away from me. End of the day, my cleaning practices are to blame, that's a given. But all my other barrels that have had pretty much the same cleaning routine, are all fine. But, I'll not be complacent about any of them. The bore scope is a great tool for not letting another one go haywire like this, that is for sure. Sure do wish it would fit in the .17's though!
- DAA
Originally Posted By: steve garrett
I wonder how much carbon you are seeing in a suppressed AR?
I'm working on being able to show you that right now
. Kinda interesting.
Originally Posted By: steve garrett
I wonder if powder choice has much to do with the hard deposits. It’s interesting you thought of turning the gun upside down with a wipeout soak it’s something I have thought about but haven’t done before.
I'm sure powder type makes a difference. I'm honestly not sure which ones are better than others though. But for the sake of conversation, I will mention, that .22-250AI has eaten a steady diet of N550 it's whole life. But, so has my 6-284, and it doesn't have any hard carbon fouling. Just a little darkening in the corners is all it is showing.
All the barrels I've checked though, they all show the top of the chamber area being more fouled than the bottom. Most of them, the bottom is bare metal clean with some noticeable but not really bad carbon fouling on the top. I'm definitely going back to not just leaving them right side up all the time during soak sessions.
- DAA
I wonder how much carbon you are seeing in a suppressed AR?
I'm working on being able to show you that right now
Originally Posted By: steve garrett
I wonder if powder choice has much to do with the hard deposits. It’s interesting you thought of turning the gun upside down with a wipeout soak it’s something I have thought about but haven’t done before.
I'm sure powder type makes a difference. I'm honestly not sure which ones are better than others though. But for the sake of conversation, I will mention, that .22-250AI has eaten a steady diet of N550 it's whole life. But, so has my 6-284, and it doesn't have any hard carbon fouling. Just a little darkening in the corners is all it is showing.
All the barrels I've checked though, they all show the top of the chamber area being more fouled than the bottom. Most of them, the bottom is bare metal clean with some noticeable but not really bad carbon fouling on the top. I'm definitely going back to not just leaving them right side up all the time during soak sessions.
- DAA
Okay, here ya go Steve.
My RRA model ATH, 18" stainless barrel. Have had it less than a year. Just over 1,000 rounds on it, all suppressed (TBAC U7).
Cleaning routine for this barrel has been... It has been cleaned about every 100 rounds or so. As follows. Fill the bore with Wipeout, let it sit a few minutes, patch out all the loose spooge. Refill the barrel with Wipeout, let it sit overnight. Patch it all out dry. Wet the bore with two wet patches of Montana Extreme, let it sit anywhere from 10 minutes to half an hour, then a dozen round trip strokes with a bronze brush wetted with Montana Extreme, patch dry, done. This barrel hasn't copper fouled much. Some, but not bad at all.
Here is what it looked like when I started. This is with about 80 rounds on it since last cleaned.
Throat.
About mid point of barrel.
I then gave it a quickie cleaning, as follows. Pushed wet patches of Montana Extreme through until they stopped coming out dirty, about five patches. Let it sit 30 minutes. Another wet patch. Then 12 round trips strokes with a bronze brush wetted with Montana Extreme. Patched it out dry.
This is what it looked like after that.
Throat.
Mid point of barrel.
Okay then... We got some carbon to get rid of. So I gave the VFG pellets and CLR another try. Wetted the bore with two wet patches of CLR and let that sit for 30 minutes. Then gave it a total of 30 round trip strokes with VFG pellets, with an extra 20 short strokes in the throat area. This is what it looked like after that.
So, I think I'm over the VFG pellets and CLR for carbon fouling... I mean, it's working, that's progress, but that is a heckuva lot more work to go at the rate it's going.
So... I decided to just go right to the aforementioned 40X on a patch wrapped around a brush. Gave it just 15 round trip strokes, patched it out and took another look. Much better!
Starting with the throat and moving down the bore towards the muzzle.
Called it good!
- DAA
My RRA model ATH, 18" stainless barrel. Have had it less than a year. Just over 1,000 rounds on it, all suppressed (TBAC U7).
Cleaning routine for this barrel has been... It has been cleaned about every 100 rounds or so. As follows. Fill the bore with Wipeout, let it sit a few minutes, patch out all the loose spooge. Refill the barrel with Wipeout, let it sit overnight. Patch it all out dry. Wet the bore with two wet patches of Montana Extreme, let it sit anywhere from 10 minutes to half an hour, then a dozen round trip strokes with a bronze brush wetted with Montana Extreme, patch dry, done. This barrel hasn't copper fouled much. Some, but not bad at all.
Here is what it looked like when I started. This is with about 80 rounds on it since last cleaned.
Throat.
About mid point of barrel.
I then gave it a quickie cleaning, as follows. Pushed wet patches of Montana Extreme through until they stopped coming out dirty, about five patches. Let it sit 30 minutes. Another wet patch. Then 12 round trips strokes with a bronze brush wetted with Montana Extreme. Patched it out dry.
This is what it looked like after that.
Throat.
Mid point of barrel.
Okay then... We got some carbon to get rid of. So I gave the VFG pellets and CLR another try. Wetted the bore with two wet patches of CLR and let that sit for 30 minutes. Then gave it a total of 30 round trip strokes with VFG pellets, with an extra 20 short strokes in the throat area. This is what it looked like after that.
So, I think I'm over the VFG pellets and CLR for carbon fouling... I mean, it's working, that's progress, but that is a heckuva lot more work to go at the rate it's going.
So... I decided to just go right to the aforementioned 40X on a patch wrapped around a brush. Gave it just 15 round trip strokes, patched it out and took another look. Much better!
Starting with the throat and moving down the bore towards the muzzle.
Called it good!
- DAA
And just for comparison, a couple pics of my 6-284. It only has 255 rounds on it, over 200 of those at coyotes. This is just pulled out of the safe, how it got put away. So far, my normal cleaning routine is working good for it. Which, that "normal routine" is the same as described above for the RRA, with two exceptions. The big exception, is frequency. I don't think I have ever put more than 20 rounds through this barrel without cleaning. Most of the time, more like 10 - 15 rounds between cleaning. And it has also seen some JB in the throat area, about every fourth cleaning or so, just on GP.
Anyway, here it is. Throat first, then mid point of barrel.
My .20-250 looks about the same. With the same cleaning routine and frequency. Still wish I could look in the .17s! I'm going to JB them good, just because seeing this carbon is kinda freaking me out. They have got the same cleaning routines as the others, not as frequently, about every 30, 40 rounds or so. I would kinda bet there is at least something along the lines of what I found in the AR lurking in them. If so, a good JB'ing will take care of that.
I ain't gonna mess with the CLR anymore. I have over the last year added soaking and brushing with C4 every couple of cleanings to my routine on some rifles. I'll keep doing that. But CLR, what I'm seeing with it and the borescope, meh, I'm just not going to pursue it any further. The C4 seems to work at least nearly as well, if not every bit as well, and according to it's manufacturer, it can't/won't hurt a barrel even if left in for days and days. I'll stick to it, for now, for a dedicated carbon cleaner. But - I'll be trying some of the stuff others have mentioned in this thread too.
- DAA
Anyway, here it is. Throat first, then mid point of barrel.
My .20-250 looks about the same. With the same cleaning routine and frequency. Still wish I could look in the .17s! I'm going to JB them good, just because seeing this carbon is kinda freaking me out. They have got the same cleaning routines as the others, not as frequently, about every 30, 40 rounds or so. I would kinda bet there is at least something along the lines of what I found in the AR lurking in them. If so, a good JB'ing will take care of that.
I ain't gonna mess with the CLR anymore. I have over the last year added soaking and brushing with C4 every couple of cleanings to my routine on some rifles. I'll keep doing that. But CLR, what I'm seeing with it and the borescope, meh, I'm just not going to pursue it any further. The C4 seems to work at least nearly as well, if not every bit as well, and according to it's manufacturer, it can't/won't hurt a barrel even if left in for days and days. I'll stick to it, for now, for a dedicated carbon cleaner. But - I'll be trying some of the stuff others have mentioned in this thread too.
- DAA
BangPop
Active member
I have a borescope that I can get in my .17 Mach IV. I will say that in my case it will be in the same condition as my 22’s or 6mm barrels with the same cleaning protocols. My cleaning habits are similar to yours with the exception that I use JB every couple of cleanings. Not scrub the fire out of it but a few passes. That has kept all my stuff carbon free.
Brad Phillips
Active member
Originally Posted By: crapshootI'd hate to see what my barrels look like. My cleaning regimen sucks compared to y'alls.
X's 2 If I had a bore scope, I would need something for depression also.
X's 2 If I had a bore scope, I would need something for depression also.
SlickerThanSnot
New member
Originally Posted By: Brad PhillipsOriginally Posted By: crapshootI'd hate to see what my barrels look like. My cleaning regimen sucks compared to y'alls.
X's 2 If I had a bore scope, I would need something for depression also.
yeah, what they both said.
but i find it very interesting and informative.
thank you for taking the time for the photos and narrative.
X's 2 If I had a bore scope, I would need something for depression also.
yeah, what they both said.
but i find it very interesting and informative.
thank you for taking the time for the photos and narrative.
Brad Phillips
Active member
This post and a post a while back about cleaning has really opened my eyes as to what works and what doesn't. Some well educated heavy hitters weighed in on both posts and they were both very informative.
Especially for guys who have graduated from the basic cleaning kit, but are not totally versed on the best, most efficient way to get a satisfactory job done.
Especially for guys who have graduated from the basic cleaning kit, but are not totally versed on the best, most efficient way to get a satisfactory job done.
204 AR
Well-known member
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest, especially since I sprung for the Lyman almost 2 years ago and it's an eye opener for sure. I use the c4 also, have tried the clr and also found it to be very similar in effectiveness, not better much if at all. Also have the vfg pellets, and same thing, a little let down.
I'm in the boat of the suppressed ar's, pretty much 90% of my shooting, and see just what you see in the rra. Long story short, the best I've got to get the tough stuff out is jb bore bright, on a patch around a brush. In fact I got a used 22x6.8 barrel that had a tough spot just ahead of the throat an inch or two, and the bore bright is the only thing that would touch it.
I also wish I could see in the 17s, as I have a 17/223 that I gave up on. Probably 1500 rounds, including some pdogs so it got hot, but man was it a laser! Maybe the funnest ar round I've ever had just for splatting black birds and whacking pdogs. That barrel is leaning up in the corner of the safe, just doesn't shoot anymore and I can't tell if I'm getting it clean but I've tried all the tricks and I suspect it's toast.
I'm in the boat of the suppressed ar's, pretty much 90% of my shooting, and see just what you see in the rra. Long story short, the best I've got to get the tough stuff out is jb bore bright, on a patch around a brush. In fact I got a used 22x6.8 barrel that had a tough spot just ahead of the throat an inch or two, and the bore bright is the only thing that would touch it.
I also wish I could see in the 17s, as I have a 17/223 that I gave up on. Probably 1500 rounds, including some pdogs so it got hot, but man was it a laser! Maybe the funnest ar round I've ever had just for splatting black birds and whacking pdogs. That barrel is leaning up in the corner of the safe, just doesn't shoot anymore and I can't tell if I'm getting it clean but I've tried all the tricks and I suspect it's toast.
204 AR
Well-known member
And as for powder type, well I can't prove anything but I use mostly 8208 in most of my ar calibers, and I think it's a little more stubborn than A2230 I was using in the 223AI. I have noticed that in some barrels my POI seems to drop after, say 30 rounds on the suppressed ar's.
Thanks for the feedback 204.
I've noticed POI moving around in the AR until it settles after a cleaning too. That barrel, out of the thousand rounds down it, probably 700 have been with 748, 200 with Benchmark and another 100 or so with various others.
Hard to say about your .17/223. 1,500 is early to give up the ghost, but not out of reasonable expectation, either. Just depends. I don't expect to any more life than that out of my .17 Predator, which although I have used it on p-dogs and 'chucks a few times, is basically just a calling rifle that never gets hot. Really just going to have to wait and see what happens with it for barrel life, it's anyones guess, really. But I'd be pretty surprised (pleasantly) if it goes to 2,000. Even 1,500 is a heckuva lot of dead coyotes too though
. It's got about 900 rounds on it now, somewhere between 500 and 600 dead coyotes with it.
- DAA
I've noticed POI moving around in the AR until it settles after a cleaning too. That barrel, out of the thousand rounds down it, probably 700 have been with 748, 200 with Benchmark and another 100 or so with various others.
Hard to say about your .17/223. 1,500 is early to give up the ghost, but not out of reasonable expectation, either. Just depends. I don't expect to any more life than that out of my .17 Predator, which although I have used it on p-dogs and 'chucks a few times, is basically just a calling rifle that never gets hot. Really just going to have to wait and see what happens with it for barrel life, it's anyones guess, really. But I'd be pretty surprised (pleasantly) if it goes to 2,000. Even 1,500 is a heckuva lot of dead coyotes too though
- DAA