Calling in the long tails!

Craig S,

I know this will start a war .... so I appologize in advance ......!

The WT call works .... it's also over-hyped.

I would not feel very undergunned with a FX3.

While WT has more options for lion sounds and more range, it gets it distance through a speaker that reproduces only the mid-frequencies. That may or may not be an issue for reaching WAY out there but up close .... I think it's a liability.

So far as sounds .... I am sitting like a bird on a limb for more choices in lion speak. .... both in the legal sense and sans 2 or 3 second loops. I am a firm believer that the best days of calling are ahead!

Maybe we can catch a live one and rub it's whiskers the wrong way and get some new ones? LOL!! ..... volunteers?

Three 44s
 

I'll add to the potential war.I don't know much about the frequencies etc.,but what I do know is that I've tried several elec. callers and haven't come close to the results that I've had with the WT.The coyotes here in Iowa are very wary, they get bounced around from Sept. to the end of Jan. and the WT is the only caller that I've had consistant results with.
So far as sounds go and lions it seems to me that about any will call one in. Proximity and creating a situation that makes them want to investigate probably has more to do with it.Cats are cats they are killing machines, house cats to lions, but they are also brain dead and operate mostly on instinct. I practice calling on house cats I find that are out hunting, if you can get them to lock on to the sound the battle is mostly over if not they just don't react.Put a cat in a bucket drop in a mouse and most of the time they don't even realize its there.Watch one see a mouse in the field and it locks on and the stalk begins.
I agree 44s that the best calling is ahead of us as far as cats go.It takes alot of time to be able to identify good lion country, but it seems that any more any place with deer or elk is potential lion habitat.Heck if I can call one in Iowa it can be done easier in other places.
Mark
 
Sorry guys. Been away for quite a while. Just dont check in here much.

Hi Mark!
Hows it there in Iowa? Looks like you are doing OK with that WT.

You guys need to get over this garbage about the WT. hehe

Over hyped???? haha

The only ones hyping it are those that dont have one, and continue to run it down. The best advertizing Bill gets! hehe

They just HAVE to check it out at that point. Bill reaps the benefits.
 
Threes,
I don't feel under gunned with the FX3. I have just heard that the WT has the best over all sound quality (digital recordings). Like I said I am not a sound guy but the Dillion family seems to be taking their products to a new level year after year.

Steve, Hopefully you will chime in & give us a new perspective.

Mike Kannapel is the guy that has stated he has called in over 200 lions. He is battling cancer right now & was unable to attend the seminar, which was very unfortunate. Wish him well.
 
Craig S
Great thread you've got going here. I've been following it since I first spotted it.

I got my first lion in yesterday, a young female that I've been aware of for about 3 weeks. I didn't kill her but learned a lot on my set up.

I use a WT caller that a couple freinds and my wife gifted me with last Xmas. I've never used anything but a hand call so can't compare it to others but the'd have to be pretty good to beat the sound quality of this one.

The cat came into lion sounds and vocalized twice, it first showed at 30 minutes. The high point of a bunch of years calling.

I've had hounds for years and have a good idea where to find the big cats, but need to learn a bunch on the sounds to use and setup. The cat spotted my rifle I think, it's getting the camo paint tonight.
Have fun out there RS
 
i have had 4 lions come in my coyote calling all to a grown deer in distress. i have tried mating and lion in heat but no responses yet.
i have never had a lion come when i was trying to call lions. just accidental call ins. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 


Hi Steve,
Hope the calling has been good for you!

I haven't been on this site much for a year.Need to get back down and try it again with you. Maybe a year from now.
Mark
 
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Craig S,

I know this will start a war .... so I appologize in advance ......!

.....................

The WT call works .... it's also over-hyped.

......................

Maybe we can catch a live one and rub it's whiskers the wrong way and get some new ones? LOL!! ..... volunteers?

Three 44s




It's not for "lack of WT's" ...... we have no shortage! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

When our good friend who does predation work first bought his ..... I thought OK ... this is the solution!

But as he worked with it ... and it does work! ..... an employee of ours who has extensive training in sound engineering AND is a trapper and hunter in her own right started GRIPING no end about the sounds and the speaker!


At first I thought that she was just showing off ..... well one day we let her prove her point. .......after all, what did we know about frequency response and microphone placement and how to set a noise gate or properly effect compression and expansion ..... heck, we were just hunters! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Well that was about to change! .....and from then on my predation working friend and I were also griping and looking for ways to get good clean sounds of our own. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angry-smiley-055.gif

And last spring we bagged our first sound. It did not require any noise gating or similar because microphone placement precluded the need ...... and instead of loops lasting 2 or 3 seconds we had a clean right out of the box loop THAT'S SIXTEEN MINUTES LONG!

The best days of calling are ahead! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Three 44s
 
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44's, So does the WT only have 2-3 sec loops? Are you also stating that your sound friend was not impressed with the WT caller?

Just trying to put it all together.


Post readers,
I am not a sound guy but to me quality is always better that quantity, whatever that means! With that being said animals have been called in with the cheapest sound machines to the most advanced sound machinces for the past 20 years, so does it really matter to THEM ? That is the question... When you become a cat let me know the answer, until then keep this debate clean.
 
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44's,


......................................................... so does it really matter to THEM ? That is the question... When you become a cat let me know the answer, until then keep this debate clean.



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

If I could become a cat ... I would not chose to do so. My predation hunter friend connects on head shots at 400 when he's hunting elk ... for now, I will pass.

But in the mean time, we could use Mr. Martz's own info.

In his coyote video he claims that coyotes hear from below our threshold to around 50,000 hz. I won't dispute that claim nor endorse it. It's also important to note that many scientists also claim that the upper limit is very high ... and that is good enough for me. In comparison ... and this is from Mr. Martz ...... he claims that human hearing is from XXX hz. to about 15,000 hz. ..... that is also supported from the scientific community.

Mr. Martz also claims that coyotes can hear ten violins separately which are playing in unison as separate instruments where as humans hear only one combo. That discussion of his is all embedded in a larger one where he is impressing the listener on how important SOUND QUALITY AND DELIVERY is so important because predators' hearing abilities.

I niether know or care about the violin count but I otherwise agree with the above paragraph's assertion by Martz.

But when one goes to the TOA web sight ...... the SPEAKER Martz uses in his callers...... one finds that in fact the dynamic range is nowhere near Martz's claims nor where many of the newer versions of calls are today .....

And in fact, the speaker now included in the newest WT has an even POORER specification sheet than the 2005 WT call my good friend invested well over $1,000 in.

I have said from the begining .... the WT call works. But the speaker used is simply a pager ... Pagers are designed to deliver human voice .... actually a FACSIMLE of human voice in a cheap compact package .... they do so well.

BUT they do not adequately deliver violin sound. (Bill Martz's example)

Simply put, the WT call is designed expressly for long range punch .... clarity falls through the cracks because the speaker chosen CAN NOT DELIVER as claimed. It cuts off sound at just 20% of the frequency range he says coyotes can hear upto!

Now simply changing speakers would seem ENTIRELY LOGICAL ... but alas that's where things really went to %$@$%!

When we ran the WT trough GOOD speakers ....... we find the TOA speaker ... the speaker sold with the WT call acts as a FILTER that covers up sounds you simply don't want to call with. This is because of editing mistakes and microphone misplacements.

You asked about the short loops ..... an example or two are very short ... some others are not as short but still shorter than I believe are prudent ...

Again, the WT works and Martz's list of sounds is astounding and I believe unmatched in the industry. And the call has PUNCH but it's a shame that the speaker chosen CUTS OFF 50% of the accessible frequency range and WORSE, when you do access the "above 10,000 hz" you don't want it!

So Craig,

If you want a WT by all means ..... you can use the WT for a blaster BUT keep your Foxpro for finesse!

I believe the best days of calling are ahead of us! That is because technology is about to turn current calling discussions head over heels!

The current norm for GOOD speakers is about 20,000 hz. and "BIG is bad" .... but new equipment on the horizon will raise the frequency range substantially and even now, speakers are available the are MUCH smaller .... and deliver an even FULLER range without distortion.

You couple that with newer sound studio equipment .... stuff that today sells for a few hundred to under $2,000 that does MORE work than complete sound gear that originally cost $500,000.00 or better ..... just 20 years ago ... the ability to get and the likelyhood of getting many choices of call sounds more available ....

...... and you have the recipe for a revolution! It's right around the corner!


Three 44s
 
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Thanks for sharing! You obviously have a better knowledge of sound quality than I do & I appreciate the information. I have also seen Mr. Martz coyote video & your findings are definitely based on fact. Now with all of this being said lets try to keep the debate clean (as you have) & bring up some more points on calling cats.

I live in an area were there is mainly single ridge mountain ranges, surrounded by desert floor. With that being said the ridge line mountain ranges seem to give the lion hunter an added advantage because the lions like to use the ridge tops as their highways & give anyone with a little bit of knowledge a place to start. What kind of patterns do lions use in country where there is not ridge top mountain ranges? Example: Ponderosa Pine country that is semi flat with a few single mountain peaks. Do they travel usually strait through their preys territory? I would have to believe that the peaks in the areas would be a good place to start but how on earth to you know which direction they headed?
 
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Craig S,

I don't know what to tell you about specific patterns in a valley.

You are correct in starting on ridges and mountain tops.

I can tell you what we have seen ....... our "chase" began in the summer of '05 so it's very short thus far.

We too have a single ridge close to our ranch ... in fact we own land up onto the foot of it and lease other land there in proximity.

At the mouth of a prominent cannyon there is a fence crossing and also there is a four-way intersection of game trails.

Also at this spot is a place where a cougar spent an INORDINATE amount of time. We know this from the large numbers of it's scat. I have confered with lion chaser acquaintances and they refer to this as a "cat toilet". I think that it may be more of a prime hunting spot but whatever the reason that a lion spent so much time there .... it matters more that it is there ... it's reason matters somewhat less.

Another observation.

Our soil here has too much clay component. During dry periods ... it's like virtual "brick bats" .... a soft footed creature like a cougar is very hard to track visually under such conditions. I hope your soil is more forgiving. Here ... unless there is ground distrubance while it's dry ........ "you ain't getting a track" .......!

Besides a water crossing ... gopher mounds or ground squirrel holes provide a ground distrubance .... you could provide your own "ground distrubance" for the cats to walk across.

We noted that we could find at least partial paw prints in the small amount of dirt the small resident elk herd was churning up just by normal walking ..... in fact it was obvious that the cat or cats were spending much time trying to get close to these elk. Ie. when the cat stepped right in the hoof marks from the elk (Deer, these days are a rarity)

So when you are wondering about travel patterns off the ridges, you will probably find cats traveling relative to whatever big game you have. ... their preference being to work from the mountain top or ridge-side of those game ... kind of a top down strategy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regards

Three 44s
 
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I haven't had much luck using lion sounds, and I used them for several years. I think the main reason is that the recordings you need are not available. You are not going to get those recordings in a zoo with captive animals.
Two biologists (a husband and wife team)wrote a book in 2001. This book came from a ten year study they conducted monitoring 276 radio-collared cougars in a desert enviornment near White Sands New Mexico. Because of the desert enviornment, they were able to approach and actually watch the cats like no one had done before. In a chapter on vocalizations they describe the sounds of mating cougars and females in heat as being very similar to the sounds made by domestic cats, only louder with a deeper voice. On one occasion they were approaching a male and female that had been together for a couple of days. They heard the female and it sounded like she was in great pain. But when they got close enough to actually see the cats, the male was 10 feet from the female and laying there grooming his tail while the female was making all this racket.
On other occasions they were able to hear the sounds made by females in estruos that were searching for mates. They described that sound as a caterwaul and the cats were most vocal after sunset through the pre dawn hours.
They were able to document the birth of 78 litters of kittens in that ten year study, and they described a birth pulse in the months of July through September where almost 50 percent of kittens were born, but kittens were born every month of the year except January.
I think cougar vocalizations would be the ultimate in calling them if we had the right recordings. We have a number of outside cats that live in our barn, and i have never heard any cougar recordings that come any where close to the racket those cats make when one of the females come into heat.
I have had better luck with distress sounds. The book I read is called "Desert Puma." It has lots of good info in it but it is not easy to read because it was written by biologists for biologists. I had to keep a dictionary handy to look up some of the big words they used.
Bob
 
Hello BobR,

It's been a while!

It would not be very hard to record domestic cats when it hit's the fan. And I have an inside straight lately on sound morphing! We can change pitch and all sorts of other sound engineering tricks lately.

"here kitty .... kitty" .... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regards

Three 44s
 
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i have called in several lions. i am from oregon and there are lots of them here. the main time that i call is in fresh snow because you know that they are around in that general vecinity. it makes it a little easier but calling lions is not by any means easy. i use a fawn distress sound with my johnny stewarts pro series call. i use a set for over an hour at a time because you never know where they may be. i have called them within 10 feet before. i have also called for about an hour and left to make another set, but when i started walking and had my gun unloaded is when i seen the cat. it died. they are really sneaky and a good set-up, good optics, enough firepower along with the right circumstances and weather you can be really successful. by no means am i a pro or an expert. there have been many times that i have been out with no luck, but presistance is the key. keep at it and you will learn more each time that you go out as i do. i hunt alot and and every time i go out i pick up something new that might not help me right then, but it could at a later date. good hunting to all.
 
jdbonnell,

Congrats on your lion calling thus far .... I'd say you are better at than the "average bear" .... LOL

Welcome to Predator Masters as well!

Do you rely on just camo or do you use a blind?

Regards

Three 44s
 
all camo and i use alot of scent away too.
called in a big tom the other day but didnt get him. he was too close and got away too fast for me to get a shot.
 
jd..,

For a Tom, I would see about finding someone with a WT with the cougar sounds.

If that Tom has not been played with those sounds he may well be like putty in your hands.

And while you are "borrowing" the caller ...... borrow it's owner for a second set of eyes but have this person set such that he/she can watch different approaches. It's obvious you have mastered the art of NOT MOVING! But this new partner would have to be just as dedicated ...... (it's hard to get "lightining" to strike in two callers) as you are or your stands would be worthless if this new partner has "the wigglies".

A cat can approach from just so many angles undetected.

Give him "angle overload"!

Best of luck

Three 44s
 
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i always have someone with me now. the lions that i hunt are in fresh snow, unless i just happen to see them cross the road in front of me. if i see a track in fresh snow i then make a loop with the road system to see if the cat has left that area already. if it hasnt left then i get the calls out. i have learned that with calling anything. if they cant hear you its pretty pointless to even try. if you do blind call you have a better chance of educating them and that is not good at all. i do know how to call these cats in and i and a buddy that is an outfitter are as of march 1 are going to start guiding for them on 5 day hunts. i know that in 5 days i can kill one. plus the good snow days are in march and that makes it easier. i do use an electric call, i have three of them and a bunch of mouth calls too. for the lions i use only electric. the cat that i was telling you about was just one of those deals where there was nothing that could have been done about it. anyways i only spend a day here and there calling because we are bobcat hunting with hounds right now and we do not want anyone to think that we did it with dogs because its not legal with them. so when bobcat season is done and we dont have the dogs with us we are going to get serious about it. i am trying to teach my friend how to call them in.
 
jdb..,

Sounds like you are really getting there! That's great!!!

Like you, I believe that cold calling is not only fruitless ..... it's destructive!

Yet too many people just want to hunker down without plenty of scouting and "play LOTO" ......

Glad you have a partner if only for safety sake. It's hard to find a partner that's dedicated enough to give it a fair shake as to sitting still and silence etc.

Do you run your lion sounds continuous and/or loud?

Steve Craig and Martz stress loudness and continuous over all else.

I may not buy it all the time with coyotes ......... but what do you think on cougs?

My friend (Tribal Predation work) says he has called in cats loud and not so loud and continuous and not continuous.

Also, have you used or contemplated using a dog for advance warning .... one that stays right on your stand? (Even a fur ball of a dog works)

My predation friend used one once ..... his wife's dog. The dog worked SUPER .... other things got "in the way" .... and since he has no appropriate barn to sleep in if he were to lose that dog .... he has not tried it again ..... LOL!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Oh and that little dog .... he has not forgotten! He lines up to go to work with "daddy" ........ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regards and pile up those kitties!!!!!!!

Three 44s
 
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