tnshootist
New member
Good points msinc. Thanks for taking the time to write that. I wonder if consistency might be key rather than method.
Annealing
- Thread starter dpollard
- Start date
Squeeze
New member
Being anal retentive about annealing just costs one money.
Squeeze
spotstalkshoot
Well-known member
I had never heard of rifle brass annealing until joining this site. Following catshooters instructions I started annealing old 17 rem brass, the split necks are no more,and I can feel the differance during sizing and bullet seating. With my propane torch it takes 7-8 seconds to start turning very dull red while turning slowly. I drop them on a damp rag on the concrete shop floor. Mike.
You guys are quite welcome...anything I can do to help out please do not hesitate to ask!!!
I do also agree that you don't want to anneal the case head...Nonte, in his book, was careful to mention that and caution against it. That was why he said he stood the cases he was doing up in a shallow pan of water, so the case heads could not get hot.
I do also agree that you don't want to anneal the case head...Nonte, in his book, was careful to mention that and caution against it. That was why he said he stood the cases he was doing up in a shallow pan of water, so the case heads could not get hot.
ninehorses
New member
The short range bench rest crowd are in a whole different game than most of us. Thin necks, tight chambers, mean little neck expansion. They are using a few carefully prepared cases, and move on to new ones often. So they may have no need to anneal.
The long range crowd is striving for low ES and neck tension is a big part of this. They may anneal every time they load. They may strive to only slightly anneal, so that the brass still has some degree of spring back, not dead soft of a full anneal. The only way to control any of this is temperature of the brass neck. The more consistent you are, the more consistent your brass will be.
For most of us, heating the neck to a dull red will suffice. I've spun them in a socket, and just rolled them with my fingers. Both work. A good torch, and holding close to the tip of the blue flame, works for me. Has for 40 years. If you do heat one to bright red, use it for a fouler, it will work harden again with a few loads.
The long range crowd is striving for low ES and neck tension is a big part of this. They may anneal every time they load. They may strive to only slightly anneal, so that the brass still has some degree of spring back, not dead soft of a full anneal. The only way to control any of this is temperature of the brass neck. The more consistent you are, the more consistent your brass will be.
For most of us, heating the neck to a dull red will suffice. I've spun them in a socket, and just rolled them with my fingers. Both work. A good torch, and holding close to the tip of the blue flame, works for me. Has for 40 years. If you do heat one to bright red, use it for a fouler, it will work harden again with a few loads.
Carolina Coyote
New member
Click on the link to see a DIY annealing machine you can build for less than$100.00. Pretty neat and very easy to build.
sandy hicks
New member
I have had some neck splitting on my 280ai after only 2 loadings with remington brass. Do any of you anneal before ever sizing the first time?
Originally Posted By: sandy hicksI have had some neck splitting on my 280ai after only 2 loadings with remington brass. Do any of you anneal before ever sizing the first time?
I don't and I use Remington brass. Not exclusively, but I have found it to be just as good as any. I like the good concentricity and already thin necks. I just got my 280AI, so I cant say if there is some reason it might want to split otherwise. I have owned 2 30-06AI's since the early 90's and haven't had any necks split. I don't anneal every load and with brand new brass I usually wait until I can feel a change, like increased pressure over the expander or more pressure to seat a bullet. Sometimes the bullet will feel "scratchy" when being seated. Those are all signs you need to anneal, but the biggest indicator is when you are using the same load/same rifle and your extreme spread/standard deviation numbers change.
Did the brass make that chirp noise/feel when you pulled it off the expander??? Did you notice the bullets seating with a lot of pressure??? How much neck interference do you have??? Do you know how old the Remington brass was to begin with??? Brass work hardens, but it also just hardens over time {years}. Do you know how long this stuff sat around some distributor and then the gun shop??? Or maybe in somebody's loading room??? I haven't had any brand new brass I felt like I needed to anneal, but that don't mean there cannot be any and not knowing how old it really is might just make it a good idea to do anyway.
Edit: it just hit me, you are fire forming this brass on the first shot, so yes, it is a good idea to anneal...just to make sure that shoulder and neck area is dead soft so it forms good. I bought Hornady brass for my 280AI and it felt as if it was dead soft right out of the bag, so I didn't do it. It seems to have formed good, but I only loaded a few rounds, it still seemed nice and soft. I haven't fired any in the improved configuration. Fire forming works the brass more so it will tend to harden up a little quicker. I'll skip it again though if the numbers still look good.
I don't and I use Remington brass. Not exclusively, but I have found it to be just as good as any. I like the good concentricity and already thin necks. I just got my 280AI, so I cant say if there is some reason it might want to split otherwise. I have owned 2 30-06AI's since the early 90's and haven't had any necks split. I don't anneal every load and with brand new brass I usually wait until I can feel a change, like increased pressure over the expander or more pressure to seat a bullet. Sometimes the bullet will feel "scratchy" when being seated. Those are all signs you need to anneal, but the biggest indicator is when you are using the same load/same rifle and your extreme spread/standard deviation numbers change.
Did the brass make that chirp noise/feel when you pulled it off the expander??? Did you notice the bullets seating with a lot of pressure??? How much neck interference do you have??? Do you know how old the Remington brass was to begin with??? Brass work hardens, but it also just hardens over time {years}. Do you know how long this stuff sat around some distributor and then the gun shop??? Or maybe in somebody's loading room??? I haven't had any brand new brass I felt like I needed to anneal, but that don't mean there cannot be any and not knowing how old it really is might just make it a good idea to do anyway.
Edit: it just hit me, you are fire forming this brass on the first shot, so yes, it is a good idea to anneal...just to make sure that shoulder and neck area is dead soft so it forms good. I bought Hornady brass for my 280AI and it felt as if it was dead soft right out of the bag, so I didn't do it. It seems to have formed good, but I only loaded a few rounds, it still seemed nice and soft. I haven't fired any in the improved configuration. Fire forming works the brass more so it will tend to harden up a little quicker. I'll skip it again though if the numbers still look good.
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sandy hicks
New member
Mine was new remington factory 280 ammo. Bought 2 boxes to just shoot up and make some brass. After firing and loading 1 time I am having split necks. I am shooting a kimber 84L select. The factory loads were 150s and the handloads were 139 sst hornady. 59 grains of 4831 if memory serves me.
DannoBoone
Active member
Originally Posted By: sandy hicksI have had some neck splitting on my 280ai after only 2 loadings with remington brass. Do any of you anneal before ever sizing the first time?
Only had to do that once, and it was with .25-06 Remmy brass.
I neck size all new brass, and two case necks split before I
got 10 sized on that very first sizing. Annealed the rest to
solve the problem.
Only had to do that once, and it was with .25-06 Remmy brass.
I neck size all new brass, and two case necks split before I
got 10 sized on that very first sizing. Annealed the rest to
solve the problem.
I broke down and bought a benchmark machine. I was lucky enough to be able to have a long chat with the owner who has forgotten more about annealing than most of us know! He sells his machines to alot of non reloading industry people as well fyi.
Anyhow if anyone is interested on this dead post I can write what I learned. I was the same as everyone totally confused by 180 degree instructions contrary to how I was doing it the manual way before the machine.
Oh I did learn one thing [beeep] by trial and error. When using test cases dont heat one up with a live primer!! Hah
Anyhow if anyone is interested on this dead post I can write what I learned. I was the same as everyone totally confused by 180 degree instructions contrary to how I was doing it the manual way before the machine.
Oh I did learn one thing [beeep] by trial and error. When using test cases dont heat one up with a live primer!! Hah
I normally shy away from annealing posts but I'm going to throw out a couple tid bits from my experience.
I don't think you need to get the neck/shoulder as hot as some folks think.
If I don't anneal every couple firings I can't control spring back
Bullets seat so much easier in annealed cases.
Group size reflects properly annealed cases.
Its time consuming and a pain in the butt if you do several hundred but it pays you back.
I don't think you need to get the neck/shoulder as hot as some folks think.
If I don't anneal every couple firings I can't control spring back
Bullets seat so much easier in annealed cases.
Group size reflects properly annealed cases.
Its time consuming and a pain in the butt if you do several hundred but it pays you back.
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BrassRat
New member
Originally Posted By: msinc
Bottom line, what I am seeing and testing just doesn't support all this exact science, certain exact absolute temperature, heat time just right, "rocket science" quench in magic voodoo liquid to get brass cases dead soft.
Heat 'em till they just start to glow, drop 'em in the water and go shooting.
If you guys read nothing else about handloading today (this week, this month, this year), read the above sentence again... three times - it should be cut in stone!
I have been annealing since the mid 60's (1960's that is
).
I started with the accepted "pan & Water" and soon discovered that the water made no difference. I learned from an old timer that the cases had to be spun so the annealing would be uniform all around. He did them on a small lathe and torch. I went to a 1/4" drill and wrench socket.
I tried an expensive machine at one point, but found that it took too much time to set up and adjust because different sized cases require different annealing times (by a LOT), it took up too much space, and was actually slower than doing it with a drill and wrench socket. When Hornady came out with their aluminum kit for power screw drivers, I snapped one up and never looked back.
Some people will tell you that if you see "yellow" you have ruined the cases - pure unadulterated bullpoopie - the yellow flame color is from ionized carbon. (remember your 10th grade chemistry class)
Copper, Zinc and Tin, when heated enough, all make green flames, NOT yellow... and you can NOT get a brass case neck hot enough with a propane torch to get to the green flame temperature zone. It is impossible!
Sometimes, annealing new cases will show yellow in the flame. It is because new cases often have wax/polish on them from the factory that will show yellow in a propane torch.
Below are two sets of brass cases. Both sets are BRAND NEW Remington brand, 6mm Rem (244) cases - the three on the left are right out of the box. The three on the right have been washed in liquid Tide clothing detergent (boiled for several minutes) and then completely rinsed, and air dried. All six were annealed at the same time, at the same temperature, for the same period of time.
The difference in colours are due to:
1 - The cases on the left had factory wax/polish which oxidized.
2 - the cases on the right shows the true color of annealed brass alone, without any chemicals adding to the oxidation process.
You cannot anneal by time - my 223 requires 1/4th the time in the flame as does my 300 Win Mag.
I heat the case to a dark cherry red and keep it there for 3 to 4 seconds, and then drop it on a crumpled piece of aluminum foil. I do not use any water.
When they cool off, I stack them...
I anneal between 2,000 and 4,000 cases a year, and have been doing it for 50+ years, and I have NEVER ruined a case.
There is no magic mumbo jumbo to annealing - it is easy peasy!
Bottom line, what I am seeing and testing just doesn't support all this exact science, certain exact absolute temperature, heat time just right, "rocket science" quench in magic voodoo liquid to get brass cases dead soft.
Heat 'em till they just start to glow, drop 'em in the water and go shooting.
If you guys read nothing else about handloading today (this week, this month, this year), read the above sentence again... three times - it should be cut in stone!
I have been annealing since the mid 60's (1960's that is
I started with the accepted "pan & Water" and soon discovered that the water made no difference. I learned from an old timer that the cases had to be spun so the annealing would be uniform all around. He did them on a small lathe and torch. I went to a 1/4" drill and wrench socket.
I tried an expensive machine at one point, but found that it took too much time to set up and adjust because different sized cases require different annealing times (by a LOT), it took up too much space, and was actually slower than doing it with a drill and wrench socket. When Hornady came out with their aluminum kit for power screw drivers, I snapped one up and never looked back.
Some people will tell you that if you see "yellow" you have ruined the cases - pure unadulterated bullpoopie - the yellow flame color is from ionized carbon. (remember your 10th grade chemistry class)
Copper, Zinc and Tin, when heated enough, all make green flames, NOT yellow... and you can NOT get a brass case neck hot enough with a propane torch to get to the green flame temperature zone. It is impossible!
Sometimes, annealing new cases will show yellow in the flame. It is because new cases often have wax/polish on them from the factory that will show yellow in a propane torch.
Below are two sets of brass cases. Both sets are BRAND NEW Remington brand, 6mm Rem (244) cases - the three on the left are right out of the box. The three on the right have been washed in liquid Tide clothing detergent (boiled for several minutes) and then completely rinsed, and air dried. All six were annealed at the same time, at the same temperature, for the same period of time.
The difference in colours are due to:
1 - The cases on the left had factory wax/polish which oxidized.
2 - the cases on the right shows the true color of annealed brass alone, without any chemicals adding to the oxidation process.
You cannot anneal by time - my 223 requires 1/4th the time in the flame as does my 300 Win Mag.
I heat the case to a dark cherry red and keep it there for 3 to 4 seconds, and then drop it on a crumpled piece of aluminum foil. I do not use any water.
When they cool off, I stack them...
I anneal between 2,000 and 4,000 cases a year, and have been doing it for 50+ years, and I have NEVER ruined a case.
There is no magic mumbo jumbo to annealing - it is easy peasy!
BrassRat
New member
Originally Posted By: sandy hicksI have had some neck splitting on my 280ai after only 2 loadings with remington brass. Do any of you anneal before ever sizing the first time?
I now anneal ALL of my new brass, right out of the box.
Why work up loads with case necks that are of unknown and uncontrolled hardness. Work up your loads with necks annealed the way you will be shooting them.
I now anneal ALL of my new brass, right out of the box.
Why work up loads with case necks that are of unknown and uncontrolled hardness. Work up your loads with necks annealed the way you will be shooting them.
BrassRat
New member
Originally Posted By: msinc
Just like the temperature...I ask what temp and WHY and not a single answer was posted...yet everyone can tell you an exact temperature to anneal to. What B.S.
Any temperature you want, above 900°... for as long as you want.
WHAT??? GASP, Blasphmy!!! What about the magical 750°(+/- 3/100th of a degree), the perfect temperature that everyone claims came from God-da!.
Here is the real skinny from the folks that do metallurgical stuff for a living.
Notice that if you heat brass up to around 500°, nothing much happens - around 600°, it "slowly" starts getting softer, and as the temperature rises from 600°, the RATE of softening for a given amount of temperature change, increases rapidly... the slope, or "rate of change"... changes.
At 750°, the RATE OF CHANGE is at it's sharpest, meaning that the induced error of annealing for a given time or temperature error on your part, is the WORST... meaning, that if you choose 750° as a temperature to use, you make the biggest mistakes in hardness, for the smallest errors of time or temperature... and you don't even get full annealing
If you use 900° or any temperature above 900° (like 1,300°) and above, you get full annealing, and the temperature/annealing slope has flattened out... so at 900° and above, you can hold the case there for a week, and it makes no difference.
And guess where "barely visible dark red" falls on the temperature scale??
Right at 980°
So annealing is not rocket science - it is soooooo easy peasy that even I can do it.
Just like the temperature...I ask what temp and WHY and not a single answer was posted...yet everyone can tell you an exact temperature to anneal to. What B.S.
Any temperature you want, above 900°... for as long as you want.
WHAT??? GASP, Blasphmy!!! What about the magical 750°(+/- 3/100th of a degree), the perfect temperature that everyone claims came from God-da!.
Here is the real skinny from the folks that do metallurgical stuff for a living.
Notice that if you heat brass up to around 500°, nothing much happens - around 600°, it "slowly" starts getting softer, and as the temperature rises from 600°, the RATE of softening for a given amount of temperature change, increases rapidly... the slope, or "rate of change"... changes.
At 750°, the RATE OF CHANGE is at it's sharpest, meaning that the induced error of annealing for a given time or temperature error on your part, is the WORST... meaning, that if you choose 750° as a temperature to use, you make the biggest mistakes in hardness, for the smallest errors of time or temperature... and you don't even get full annealing
If you use 900° or any temperature above 900° (like 1,300°) and above, you get full annealing, and the temperature/annealing slope has flattened out... so at 900° and above, you can hold the case there for a week, and it makes no difference.
And guess where "barely visible dark red" falls on the temperature scale??
Right at 980°
So annealing is not rocket science - it is soooooo easy peasy that even I can do it.