A Point to Ponder

OldTurtle

OldTurtle

Moderator - Deceased
It's funny how you wake up in the morning with something buzzing around in your head...Maybe it only happens as you get older..I'm always trying to learn something new..

I woke up this morning with a question that has been starting to bug me for some time and hopefully it will generate some positive discussion... "The Question":

How do you measure and determine the "Ideal" powder for an individual rifle barrel?

I think it's a given that each barrel is different and therefore will produce different results, depending on the following, but not limited to:

Powder,
Powder Charge,
Bullet Style,
Bullet Weight,
Primer,
Barrel Length, and
Barrel Condition

I know there are quite a few very knowledgeable shooters/reloaders on the board and I'm hoping that they will all chime in with their experience and knowledge, keeping in mind that the point is to come up with a useable determination method..

It seems to me that ideally, you want any powder to totally burn and produce the most velocity, just as the bullet exits the muzzle of the barrel...But, how do we select the powder that will do that?? And how can we, as consumers, use that to our benefit??
 
I read a lot.. But then I also do a lot of load development until I am happy. I have no usable determination method.
 
OldTurtle, I can not help you with coming up with a solution or answer for your question, but this is something that has been difficult for me to decipher when choosing recipes/loads for my rifles! It seems to me that there is such a huge selection of powders that are available to us as reloaders, and in the little bit of time that I've been doing it, I have quite the collection of powders already and am constantly asking myself if I need this many. I would love to see a system that could tell me exactly what powder I need to be using when I'm using a certain type of bullet with a certain rifle! I don't like it when I'm constantly second guessing myself on my powder selections.
 
The only thing that has popped into my mind, is to set up some form of rack that would hold a sheet of heavy paper, that you would shoot through with a specific powder and try to determine if there is unburned powder residue on the area surrounding the bullet hole, and if so, back off to the next faster powder...

If you only get burned powder carbon on the paper, it might mean that your powder is totally burning before reaching the end of the muzzle and then you would have to go a slower powder, until you started to get the unburned speckles..

The trick would be to be able to build a measuring device that would withstand the muzzle blast and then you would have to figure out how far to place it from the muzzle to get a valid amount of information...

I thought that some of the more experienced people might be able to come up with a good way to determine the optimum powder for any given barrel...Not being concerned about accuracy, at that point..

Over the few short years that I've been reloading rifle rounds,,I've narrowed my powder choices down to three, but I'm not that confident that they are the best ones for my barrels..
 
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After consulting the various lab work done by the powder/bullet manufacturers and published in their loading manuals I may choose three or four powders that are suitable for the application. From then on the chronograph and target results tell me the details I need to know. Things like total velocity given, extreme spread, standard deviation, efficiency per charge and weight increases, ease of working with that particular powder type, temperature and humidity stability, and finally very importantly the accuracy results downrange.
 
I have been shooting the 22DTi and the 6mmDTi and there is no reloading data on these wildcats but Mike (DTech) sent me Quick-load data based on his case designs and the information that you want is there.
You just input the bullet brand/type ,OAL,primer, and other pertinent info such as max pressure you want and it will tell you from fastest burn rate to slowest burn rate which powders are suitable. It tells you how full your case will be and how much powder will burn in whatever length barrel you chose and the estimated velocity.
It has been very accurate on predicting speed for the loads I have tested which has been dozens.
EX: I loaded one last night based on Quick-load In the 6mmDTi with 75grain Hornady and H4895 it said my speed would be 3107fps and my average was 3115fps...... that is pretty impressive.
It even shows you what happens pressure/speed-wise when you change bullet depth.
Does it tell you the best powder...NO... it will it let you know where to look and what to expect from a preferred group of best selections.
 
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Does anyone have a link for Quick load I just went to a Quick Load site and want to make sure it is the correct site before I download or purchase anything.
Thanks
 
Originally Posted By: GCAfter consulting the various lab work done by the powder/bullet manufacturers and published in their loading manuals I may choose three or four powders that are suitable for the application. From then on the chronograph and target results tell me the details I need to know. Things like total velocity given, extreme spread, standard deviation, efficiency per charge and weight increases, ease of working with that particular powder type, temperature and humidity stability, and finally very importantly the accuracy results downrange.

That about sums it up. Doesn't everyone pretty much do it this way?

A couple other factors I may throw in to consider, are powder efficiency(as related to velocity), how cleanly it burns, and pressures. But GC pretty much nailed it........
 
Guess I'm from the "old school", but my method is rather simple. I am looking for the most accurate load, not necessarily the fastest so I often choose powders on the slower side that fill the case or as close to full as I can get within safe loads listed in several manuals. I then load up six or seven different charges using Creighton Audette's ladder method and head for the range w/chronograph and see how it sorts out. Pick a node where several shots group well on target and you usually find that these nodes show very little vel. spread w/several different charges.

Regards,
hm
 
As has been the case in the past, my friend "OT" is quite the Philosopher and Teacher. I haven't been relaoding all that long (3 years), but having been shooting all sorts of weapons for more than 50+ years. FINALLY, after retiring, got the chance to start reloading. I read books, read blogs, talked to several guys at the range and started paying attention to loads people used and recommended. Did tons of testing from which I learned and as OT said, each rifle likes it's own diet. And more importantly, what works for some else, may not work for me and visa versa. That all got me more intrigued and into "precision reloading" because I no longer hunt and pretty much shoot paper these days. And I've had great success, but none of it would have worked as well if other shooters hadn't shared their info. Shooting has always been a passion, but reloading has taken on that characteristic because if I don't find the right diet for each of my babies, she'll sure let me know at the range. Thanks guys!
 
Venatic, Thanks for posting the program....That will give me pretty much what I'm interested in determining...I'm really interested in being able to match the powder burn rate to the length of the barrel for optimum powder performance...

If I have that working to it's peak, I think the accuracy, while not automatic, will be more consistent with each series of reloads matched to the individual rifle barrel, as well as economical due to not using excessive powder, even though we're only talking about a few tenths of a grain..I'll just have more individual powders in my supply cabinet..

For no more than the program costs, it may help reduce one of my headaches in the reloading process..

I really don't usually care about the speed of the bullet, if it produces the best accuracy, but I really want consistency in performance..

Quote:I don't like it when I'm constantly second guessing myself on my powder selections...Ricky Bobby, That's the crux of my problem as well..
 
Just ONE of MANY points I have pondered in regards to reloading...kind of what makes shooting/reloading enjoyable I think.
 
Shipply,, Thanks for posting the link...I read through the whole paper and, while I was lost in some of it, I think I understand most of the final observations...I had never known, or come close to contemplating, the potential for barrel convolutions (size increase/decrease) during the passing of the bullet through a barrel...

I had always been told that the size of a group depended on the location of a "figure 8" type barrel distortion in the harmonics of the 'barrel whip'...and the secret was to find a load that exited the barrel at the same place in this 'figure 8'...It appears that this was not exactly a valid piece of information..
 
Originally Posted By: shipplyYou have proably seen this before but it is an interesting read, it may help you in your quest for the perfect powder combo. www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm

There is one major flaw in that theory.

When using a strain gauge to measure pressure, it does this by measuring the expansion of the barrel - the gas pressure causes the barrel to swell or bulge, and the instruments measure the change in resistance of the gauge - it's easy!

Now, the velocity of ANY wave in steel is ~18,000 feet per second. Since the barrel is ~2 feet long, and the transit time of a bullet in a barrel is between 2 and 4 milliseconds, then by simple math, this "shock wave" will travel back and forth in a 24 inch the barrel a whole bunch of times, before the bullet leaves the barrel.

I have looked at hundreds and hundreds of pressure curves, as have many others, and I (nor anyone else) has ever seen a pressure curve with these reflecting shock waves super-imposed over the main trace.

It is Dan's "theory" and he believes it, but there is less than "0" science behind it.

If it were true, it would be soooo easy to demonstrate it, instead of having to use "simulations".

Any theory can be presented with "simulations", but simulations are not proof or evidence - in college, his presentation would get a "F".

When the real proofs are so easy to produce, why is he still using simulations after 8 or 9 years.

Because there is nothing to it.
 
Old Turtle, I don't know that there is an answer to your question other than spending time behind the rifle.

I have 223's, 223 AI's, custom this and that which will stack the bullets on top of each other with multiple powders.

I have found that the Nosler reloading manual has the "most accurate load" for each powder listed and the most accurate powder listed in their testings. Many times in my rifles, these most accurate load listed have been very close. I did find that my rifle may not like their most accurate powder, but in the other powders lised, their most accurate load worked out in several powders....does this make sense?
 
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