223 to 204?

Originally Posted By: steve garrettOriginally Posted By: GLShooterOriginally Posted By: steve garrettjust load light bullets in the 223 and skip the 204

And give up the superior BC of the twenty? Why do that? If light 223 pills got it done the 204 would have never become popular.

Greg

BC doesn't matter when we are talking 350 yards, IE The useful range of each cartridge. SPEED is what you want. Further the loading data for the 223 is weak, load that puppy to 65kpsi with light bullets and the 204 doesn't look near as great. lastly if we are talking coyotes nearly all the 20 cal bullets are pretty lightly constructed for animals larger than a prairie dog.

Put quite simply if you were loading 223 to 65,000 and you were on a range I was running and knew it your butt would be in your car headed out the gate so fast your head would be spinning in circles.

Greg
 
Mr Steve, you must not have much time hunting with 20s. I use to be a 223 nut myself but after hunting with a 204 the last 2 seasons and killing about 30 coyotes and many other little critters, I find it to walk away from my 223. I compare a 204 to be closer to a 22-250 than a 223. I shoot Bergers and they seem to be great buuet on coyotes. The 35s at 3700 to 3800 don't exit very often and anchor coyotes. The 39 gr SBK is another great bullet on larger critters.

I don't get why people talk so bad about the 20s, I will have one in my collection from here on out. I do understand some guys like to hammer a coyote and dont care about damage,in that case just use a 243 or larger.

To the OP I would get either or they are so close in preformance. Just get it comming. You will love it
 
I love my 223's but a 20 prac is a really awesome cartridge. I am between that and another wildcat for my next build. Not trying to hijack but anyone have any experience with the 20 and fox? Trying to cone up with the ultimate fox hunting wildcat to save furs. I have downloaded my 223 but then I could have just bought a 221
 
Originally Posted By: steve garrettOriginally Posted By: GLShooterOriginally Posted By: steve garrettjust load light bullets in the 223 and skip the 204

And give up the superior BC of the twenty? Why do that? If light 223 pills got it done the 204 would have never become popular.

Greg

BC doesn't matter when we are talking 350 yards, IE The useful range of each cartridge. SPEED is what you want. Further the loading data for the 223 is weak, load that puppy to 65kpsi with light bullets and the 204 doesn't look near as great. lastly if we are talking coyotes nearly all the 20 cal bullets are pretty lightly constructed for animals larger than a prairie dog.


I would suggest before you spew out any more WRONG information you at least run the numbers. BC does matter closer than 350 yards. Try 100 yards. You can do the math yourself. Both cartridges use a 40 grain bullet. Both start at 3700 FPS. The BC on the .224 40 grain Vmax is .200, The BC on the 204 40 grain Vmax is .275.

204 223
3700 3700
100 3301 3161
200 2938 2685
300 2604 2255
400 2293 1867
500 2004 1528

As you can see the 22 caliber bullet never has a chance. The 20 caliber will out run the 223 up to 55 grain bullets. How can this be you ask? Because of the BC!!!!!!!!!!! If you want a real eye opener, run the numbers on 55 grain bullets. The 223 starts out faster, but some where around 150 yards, the 204 blows by the 22 cal bullet.

Another thing. Any one who would suggest loading over a published maximum to a stranger is crazy. How would you know when you reach the 65,000 PSI level? Do you have a way to test pressure without a pressure barrel and testing equipment?

It might be wise for you to spend a little more time reading and a little less time typing.
 
Originally Posted By: steve garrettOriginally Posted By: GLShooterOriginally Posted By: steve garrettjust load light bullets in the 223 and skip the 204

And give up the superior BC of the twenty? Why do that? If light 223 pills got it done the 204 would have never become popular.

Greg

BC doesn't matter when we are talking 350 yards, IE The useful range of each cartridge. SPEED is what you want. Further the loading data for the 223 is weak, load that puppy to 65kpsi with light bullets and the 204 doesn't look near as great. lastly if we are talking coyotes nearly all the 20 cal bullets are pretty lightly constructed for animals larger than a prairie dog.

You sir are so very wrong. I've consitently killed coyotes past the 400 yards range with my 204 and 32 gr sierras. If yuor limiting it to 350 yards and closer thats hogwash. Now that being said, if you aren't good at the further distances don't take the shots. Don't shoot outside your capabilities.
 
Originally Posted By: BOBTAILSOriginally Posted By: steve garrettOriginally Posted By: GLShooterOriginally Posted By: steve garrettjust load light bullets in the 223 and skip the 204

And give up the superior BC of the twenty? Why do that? If light 223 pills got it done the 204 would have never become popular.

Greg

BC doesn't matter when we are talking 350 yards, IE The useful range of each cartridge. SPEED is what you want. Further the loading data for the 223 is weak, load that puppy to 65kpsi with light bullets and the 204 doesn't look near as great. lastly if we are talking coyotes nearly all the 20 cal bullets are pretty lightly constructed for animals larger than a prairie dog.

You sir are so very wrong. I've consitently killed coyotes past the 400 yards range with my 204 and 32 gr sierras. If yuor limiting it to 350 yards and closer thats hogwash. Now that being said, if you aren't good at the further distances don't take the shots. Don't shoot outside your capabilities.

did I say it wasn't possible?? no I bet you could kill a coyote probably to at least 600 under the right conditions. The question then becomes is that a good idea? I think the 204 AND the 223 do best at 350 yards or less and I stand by that.

the next thing goes to BC and in particular the vmax bullets, if I am having trouble needing finishers with vmax bullets under 60 grains fired from a 223, how is shooting a lighter and faster bullet going to be a good idea from a 204? I hear the whole hit them better type argument but thats not always possible. I persoanlly think the 223 is a rather unimpressive coyote killer, with a ligther constructed bullets moving faster from a 204 I can't see it as being better. the BC difference is generally around 100 fps for the ranges you will typically shoot at.
 
Originally Posted By: GLShooterA man's got to know his limitations. Apparently math is one of yours.

Greg

Great comment and spot on
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Originally Posted By: GLShooterA man's got to know his limitations. Apparently math is one of yours.

Greg

GLS thats pretty funny, I ran my own numbers on JBM, you do realize that at 65kpsi with the 223 your most likely not seeing pressure signs?? I would further wager many of those 6x6.8 loads you shoot are exceeding that. so maybe you will have to throw yourself off the range.
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forgive anyone that shoots a 223 at your range and works up till they see pressure signs.

according to my math at 300 yards you get 1" of flatter shooting from a 204. so if extra speed is the argument it sure isn't a strong one at the longer limits of both cartridges. never mind all the versatility your giving up by departing from the 223. correction with a 200 yard zero you get .6" flatter trajectory with a 204 at 300 yards. I rest my case.
 
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My favorite thing about the 204 is the basically no recoil, and you can see your hits in the scope. Even the 100 yard ones. I know if we could only choose one gun we could argue the finer points, but there is no fun in only owning one gun.
 
Originally Posted By: GLShooterYou really are clueless. The 6X6.8 has been pressure tested and we limit our loads to 56,500.

Greg



so your the expert on pressure after telling me I am going to put my eye out loading the 223 to 65kpsi and I would be kicked off your range. the 6.8 case only holds a few grains more powder simple math says its pressure that gets the speed. but then again you know everything.
 
You openly advocate loading to levels that aren't listed by any manufacturer and are by anyones standards far above :safe" levels. The board read by people who have at times little or no experince at the reloading and shooting bench. Just how do you propose determining what is a 65,000 load? Pressure and powder charges are not linear. High speed/pressure do not necessarily lead to accuracy. You push speed in your postings as the be all to end all. Your routine argument you drag out is the loaded to the same pressure all are equal. Review what Ritch posted. Those two loads were selected for same pressure data. Expalin that if you can.

Yes pressure is speed and the testing done does give us a data point to work with. You pick a number out of the air and tell the boys to shoot it. That's tantamount to the drunk hick saying. "Hey guys, watch this!!" You really are clueless and distilled to the basic level, dangerous. Every time you touch the keyboard you spread your ignorance and lack of common sense to the internet

Why don't you trot out some of your cartridge development work with actual objective testing data. As to being kicked off a range any that know you are shooting ammunition or equipment, that by your own admission, is over what most normal shooters would view as safe will kick you off. For a while many guys tried to hot rod 9 MM to MAJOR in IPSC/USPSA from unsupported barrels. Those people were escorted off the firing line. They even banned 38 MAJOR for a period of time. Plain and simple safety is the concern.

Greg
 
Originally Posted By: steve garrettOriginally Posted By: GLShooterYou really are clueless. The 6X6.8 has been pressure tested and we limit our loads to 56,500.

Greg



so your the expert on pressure after telling me I am going to put my eye out loading the 223 to 65kpsi and I would be kicked off your range. the 6.8 case only holds a few grains more powder simple math says its pressure that gets the speed. but then again you know everything.

Very well said Greg.
 
I kinda feel bad about hijacking the thread, but I was board and wanted to kick the ant pile, ok I admit it. GLS you do realize the nato spec for 5.56 is very close to the number I suggested?? further do you know that other cartridges are rated for this pressure? You telling me I am too dangerous is the same as telling everyone that has loaded 223 till they see pressure signs as being unsafe and going to put their eye out. flattened primers is usually approaching 70kpsi. I am well aware that speed most of the time doesn't produce the best accuracy. my solution is build your gun with the best parts you can find in particular the barrel and your more likely to have a load that shoots to your accuracy expectation AND is fast.

there is a generally accepted 1/4 rule, for example increase case compacity 10 % expect a 2.5% increase in speed at the same pressures. so in the case of the 6.8 case it holds 5 more grains of powder roughly 16% expect a 4% increase in speed, this is typically going to be around a 150 fps increase in speed when compared to a 223 case. you telling me how dangerous I am being but you advocate wildly increased speeds with your 6x6.8 loadings. for the record I have no problem with this, but don't turn around and say OMG loading a 223 case to 65 grand is going to put your eye out and threaten other people at the range. GLS you still have much to learn.
 
I just watched a video of making the 20 practical out of 223, so you have to size the brass twice with two different bushing sizes? He also uses the 223 seater die, I'm guessing this is how your making your brass Greg..
 
Originally Posted By: steve garrettI kinda feel bad about hijacking the thread, but I was board and wanted to kick the ant pile, ok I admit it. GLS you do realize the nato spec for 5.56 is very close to the number I suggested?? further do you know that other cartridges are rated for this pressure? You telling me I am too dangerous is the same as telling everyone that has loaded 223 till they see pressure signs as being unsafe and going to put their eye out. flattened primers is usually approaching 70kpsi. I am well aware that speed most of the time doesn't produce the best accuracy. my solution is build your gun with the best parts you can find in particular the barrel and your more likely to have a load that shoots to your accuracy expectation AND is fast.

there is a generally accepted 1/4 rule, for example increase case compacity 10 % expect a 2.5% increase in speed at the same pressures. so in the case of the 6.8 case it holds 5 more grains of powder roughly 16% expect a 4% increase in speed, this is typically going to be around a 150 fps increase in speed when compared to a 223 case. you telling me how dangerous I am being but you advocate wildly increased speeds with your 6x6.8 loadings. for the record I have no problem with this, but don't turn around and say OMG loading a 223 case to 65 grand is going to put your eye out and threaten other people at the range. GLS you still have much to learn.


Garrett If I were you I would stop with your diarrhea of the keyboard. You haven't a clue what your talking about and it's making you look worse every time you start typing. Kicking the ant pile as you called it, is both childish as well as idiotic.

You read pressure by reading primers? What happens if you use a soft primer like a Federal compared to a hard primer like Remington 7 1/2? With the same exact powder charge, you will get two very different looking primers. So which one is over maximum?

You also don't have a clue about the 6X6.8. Have you ever even shot one? In reality you probably haven't shot enough ammo in the last year to equal what I spent just on strain gauges PRESSURE TESTING the 6X6.8 I can tell you what the pressures are in the 6X6.8 not like you with your 223. Using the theory of just add a little more powder and shoot it to see what happens is ludicrous. Kind of like telling Greg he has a lot to learn. I will say Greg has forgot more than you have proven to know by your previous posts.
 
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