Winchester copper-plated #2 self-defense load (S122PD25)?

sidpost

New member
I can get this #2 "Self-Defense" load locally for ~$1.50/rd. My next option is lead #4 ($0.75rd) to #4 Buck (~$2.50/rd).

I need to shoot dogs (domesticated livestock killers) and beavers close to a public road and around water in my pasture. I am concerned about ricochets leaving my property so, #4 Buck has been ruled out for that reason mainly, along with pattern density.

#4 lead shot should be very effective on beavers at 20~30 yards with good pattern density as swimmers don't present much of a target to hit. I have been attacked by dogs 3 times so, I don't really want to be forced into changing loads in my shotgun or transitioned to a handgun during a fast attack from behind. There are also some animal hoarders which are the main problem with the domestic dogs as they are all starving to death and just trying to survive. With people like that, you never know when they will pull out a shotgun or 30-30 to "protect their dogs out in the country where they can do anything they want to!" With Meth and Marijuana in rural East Texas, occasional weird criminal encounters are not unheard of (I had an explosive destroy my mailbox and arson burned down a neighbor's house).

I have taken nearly 100 of those dogs with my rifle in the past two years on other parts of my property, including two on my front porch when I heard something get knocked over before my first cup of coffee one morning! If I didn't open the door with a pistol in my hand while wearing shorts and flip-flops, my morning would likely have involved an ambulance ride into town!

Will the Winchester copper-plated #2 self-defense load (S122PD25) work reasonably well for the situation I described with beavers and dogs? Or, is there something better for similar money for my shotgun? I want humane kills that reduce the risk of off-property ricochets and good pattern density. I know Tungsten loads would work better but over $12/rd just isn't an option. Heck, $3~$4 isn't really an option either! Local options are also very restricted unless you want lead 7.5 shot target/upland loads. I have scored a box of #4 shot lead Remington shells for the near term which I found for $18/25rds! However, I really want something with more energy for dogs.

TIA,
Sid
 
When I first started shooting coyotes with a shotgun I used 3" 12 ga copper coated #2 shot and copper coated BB shot. The #2 shot did not work nearly as good as the BB shot.

Lead #4 and #2 shot may work on dogs to about 30 yards and less if you can make head shots.

For shooting coyotes lead BB shot is the smallest shot size I would use.

With KPY Shotshell Ballistics I want 3.70" of 20% gel penetration to reliable kill or break down coyotes, KPY recommends 2.50" of gel penetration for killing honkers.

1250 fps lead #4 shot gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 6.6 yards.
1250 fps lead #2 shot gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 17.4 yards.
1250 fps lead #BB shot gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 43.7 yards.
 
Lead 2s or BBs would be my choice in your situation. Everything is going to be a compromise in some way.

Good luck with the strays!
 
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eeeeks, shooting peoples dogs, even if the owners are irresponsible and allowing them to roam free, ain't for the weak of heart.

be ready for some major caca to hit the fan when one of those shot gunned dogs makes it home with broken legs or other injuries. make no mistake, it will or could happen very easily.

think i'd use a sufficient rifle to get the job done with slim chances of escapees and make sure the bullet stays inside or loses enough velocity on exit that it won't go far or be much of a danger if it does exit.

just me.
 
Been attacked three times and killed nearly 100 dogs in the last two years... rough homestead.
 
Originally Posted By: GCBeen attacked three times and killed nearly 100 dogs in the last two years... rough homestead.

If I'd killed nearly 100 dogs, I wouldn't need advice on what works... and I wouldn't be putting it on the net.
 
Originally Posted By: wildflightsOriginally Posted By: GCBeen attacked three times and killed nearly 100 dogs in the last two years... rough homestead.

If I'd killed nearly 100 dogs, I wouldn't need advice on what works... and I wouldn't be putting it on the net.

I agree!

We need a LIKE button.
 
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnoteeeeks, shooting peoples dogs, even if the owners are irresponsible and allowing them to roam free, ain't for the weak of heart.

be ready for some major caca to hit the fan when one of those shot gunned dogs makes it home with broken legs or other injuries. make no mistake, it will or could happen very easily.

think i'd use a sufficient rifle to get the job done with slim chances of escapees and make sure the bullet stays inside or loses enough velocity on exit that it won't go far or be much of a danger if it does exit.

just me.


Yep, of the 100 or so shot so far, I had one at ~200 yards gut shot that ran in a direction I could not follow. Turns out, it was the Sheriff deputy's daughter's dog.

He was cool with the whole situation. He agreed that chasing nursing cows and ambushing them at the pond to get a drink was unacceptable.

Turns out he wasn't a fan of that dog and it had recently killed his daughter's 3 pet chickens.

Down the road from me, grandma was watching her grandson while Momma went to town to do the weekly shopping. Grandma was letting grandson play in the front yard (our county road generally has light traffic that time of day). The neighbor's "pitbull" down the road about 150 yards came down and mauled her grandson and put him in the hospital. Grandson survived. When the Sheriff's Deputy came to investigate, he told Grandma to kill the dog next time it was not in the owner's yard.

Not sure what happened but, that dog doesn't jump on my car and bite at my tires when I stop at the stop sign anymore!
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Originally Posted By: Tim NeitzkeA few weeks ago the OP ,had a very similar thread about Hornady ammo for shooting dogs.


Yes, and I wish I could find some to buy at a reasonable price. Absolutely nothing was available locally so, I tried to see if I could get some shipped in for a reasonable price. I also did not find anything online I could order.

The copper plated #2's are the closest thing I can find in stock at a reasonable price that sort of fit my criteria.

If Hevi-shot wasn't ~$65 plus shipping for 5 rounds, I'd get some of those but thanks to inflation on everything I need for day-to-day living (electricity at +200%, gasoline at +50%, ...) and reduced income, I just can't spend ~$12 per Beaver or dog shot.
 
Originally Posted By: GCBeen attacked three times and killed nearly 100 dogs in the last two years... rough homestead.

Where I live was a nice area when I moved in.

I have had an explosive put in my mailbox which got ATF involved. I assume it was because of the multiple mail theft claims I filed with the Sherriff and USPS and the dope smokers at the flop house got tired of being questioned about mail theft and being tagged for various drug offenses I assume because I could smell the marijuana with my windows rolled up when I drove by. They played heavy metal music at all hours of the day and night which I could hear in my house with the windows closed and the television on! And I am 1/2 mile away as the crow flies! I'm sure other neighbors weren't too happy with that noise either. They also rode 2-stoke Motocross motorcycles on the public road and were a general nuisance to any traffic on the road in addition to the noise. [/rant]

The USPS no longer delivers mail to me at this address.

The other house about 200 or 300 yards away was burned to the ground in an arson fire. It appears the meth user who was evicted came back and burned the place down. He went to prison and apparently died there.

Two elderly long-term residents have passed away. One property was purchased by an animal hoarder who was evicted from her house in Mesquite Texas. She came out here so she could "do whatever she wanted". The animal welfare call was so big, our county could not handle it by themselves. When I drove by on my way back from town, I counted 4 different animal control Counties at the scene plus the closest town ferrying the ones still alive to the local vet for emergency care.

The couple that are running the "beaver breeding facility" aren't as bad for hoarding but, running nine unneutered females with a couple of male dogs means lots of starving puppies. One day I counted 37 puppies on the road when I got my mail from the mailbox, not counting the ones in the ditches and in my front pasture under the shade tree.

So, as stated, this area has gotten pretty rough. The open border with the flood of drugs and sex workers/trafficked people isn't helping matters.

What should have been a serene idyllic place in the country has been spoiled by bad governance and people who have no regard for anyone but themselves along with the scourge of drug use and all the misery that brings.

Texas law won't allow any state agency to intercede on the Beaver problem so, my only recourse is a civil legal case against them for loss of value to my property but, they are on public assistance so, with HOMESTEAD protection, I would not see any money until they die or sell the place "if" I won my case. An injunction to remove the Beavers on their property would be at my expense but, there is nothing to say they wouldn't do it again (with public assistance, it is not like they could be fined for non-compliance with the injunction or be forced to pay for tearing down the beaver lodge and dam again). At this point, the flooding has cost me grazing on 25% of my property. Even the part that isn't standing in water is so wet I can't walk it with boots on. The roadway between our property is so flooded, the public road keeps failing. When I went to town today, I can see the small potholes which will start flowing water tomorrow and will close the road down in about 3 more days until the county fixes it again.[/rant]

My driveway footing was so waterlogged, it waved if I walked on it. Yes, just like your kids walking on a water bed! A D5 Caterpillar dozer and I think it was 16 semi-loads (not dump trucks) of rock later it was fixed. I got small boulders down to the clay base and smaller material for the driveway itself, all because of my neighbor's BEAVERS! This diverted so much extra water, the County had to come out and rework the ditches and put in a bigger culvert to handle the water that was now diverted to the ditch in the road since my driveway was slowing down the water migration under my driveway!
 
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Originally Posted By: wildflightsOriginally Posted By: GCBeen attacked three times and killed nearly 100 dogs in the last two years... rough homestead.

If I'd killed nearly 100 dogs, I wouldn't need advice on what works... and I wouldn't be putting it on the net.

At this point, I am compliant with Texas law! I am a much better shot today with my AR-15 than at any other point in my life too!

I cannot safely kill beavers or dogs in this part of my pasture with my rifle. To do so would be reckless on my part and a violation of State law.

In terms of public disclosure, I started by talking to all my neighbors and asking them to restrain their dogs. Most did nothing. The retired Marine asked me why I thought his dog was a problem. The Goose egg in his mouth by her nest removed all doubt. The dead goose didn't help the situation either! He asked me to wait until Saturday because that was the soonest he could get to town to buy a kennel. He also offered to pay for the goose and eggs. Needless to say, I was THRILLED because the last thing I wanted to do was kill someone's pet! I also thanked him for his offer but declined the money too!

Everyone else was either deaf, dumb, blind, or just an outright idiot. "My dogs are just doing what dogs do" and other nonsense.

So no, I'm not 'sniping' people's pets in secrecy. That is the least desirable thing I could do other than putting indiscriminate poison out which is just simply wrong! And it is generally illegal too.

Keeping nursing cows away from water is really bad. When I had a calf killed (in addition to chickens and geese), I had enough. Like my feral hog Jihad, when people did nothing to restrain their dogs, I started shooting the ones ambushing cows at the pond. With no action to restrain the dogs, my next target were the ones killing chickens and geese.

At this point, if they are on my property, I shoot to kill if safe to do so.

Being attacked three times while living here has made me pretty aggressive in this regard with any dog that wasn't obviously friendly, like the Golden Retriever that would greet me at my mailbox in the early days and put his head under my left hand if I didn't stop to pet him! I really like dogs generally too! Having a calf killed was the last straw and my dog Jihad started.

If someone tells me they are taking action to stop a cow chasing or chicken killing dog, I will hold my fire to give them a chance to take corrective actions. If they want to get on their high horse and preach to me or, simply hurl insults and threats, I can deal with that too! Texas law is pretty clear outside of the city limits. Out where I am at is pretty rural, not just outside the city boundary line so, the Sherrif knows the "norms" for farmers and ranchers pretty well and is intimately familiar with the local problems when a deputy lives on the same road. The deputy moved too so, with that, things got a lot worse.
 
Originally Posted By: spotstalkshootCrazy, would need a backhoe to keep up on burying that many dogs.

They make good feral hog and coyote bait! But yes, generally the dozer had an area I could bury their bodies. I also put a few on a big brush pile I was lighting off for a funeral pyre too.

Feral hogs though provided the most body mass I needed to dispose of. 17 one night was a big job the next day too! Everyone thought shooting a feral hog was "free" pork. After two or three, how many more do you need? After a while, all the people that thought free hogs were wonderful started telling me no more because their freezers were full and no one in the family could eat any more pork for a while!
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The little track-hoe we have now works a lot better for disposing of excess feral hogs.

And no, you can't donate feral hog meat to a soup kitchen or homeless shelter. And yes, a ~35# one on the smoker racing style is awesome!
 
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