coyote control/fur

trappnman

New member
Leonard- I am not trying to reopen what is obviously a highly frameable point on this forum, but as Wiley E. knows, if I have a point to make, I am not shy.

In a perfect world, ie without human intervention, predators and prey achieve a balance (in many different ways)wherein both benefit. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world. Some predators like the coyote, are not only able to adapt, but as some think genetically change to fit their environment. In any case, in many areas of the US, coyotes are the dominant predator, and are a threat to livestock and the "native" wildlife. I read a study where it stated that if you killed 75% of the coyote population in a given area in one year, then 75% of the next years population, and so on, it would take 50 years to eliminate the coyotes from that area, assuming no others would move in. If you did this for 45 years, then stopped- it would take 5 years for the coyote population to rebound to the point where you first started. Impressive. Studies have shown in low population areas, female can have up to 19 pups in as litter. Coyotes are here to stay. Now, I am a trapper, a fur man. I love to put up coyote fur, and I respect the coyote. But no man should ever have to justify himself to anyone else on WHY he kills coyotes. Coyote control is justification in itself. Someone once said that the savior of the foothold trap will be the coyote. I have no trouble explaining myself to people when they ask why coyote control is needed- there are a hundred reasons. Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade- I kill coyotes to protect livestock, to give wildlife such as fox and deer a chance, to allow the local bird population to rebound, to do my part to control predators to keep poison a dim memory. In my area, bluebirds are now common- 40 years ago they were a rarity, 30 years ago they were gone. Same with eagles- I tell people that if you eliminate hunting and trapping, poison is the last defense. I am not trying to step on anyone's personal beliefs, but just giving an honest opinion. trappnman



------------------
Your American heritage- Fur Trapping, Hunting and Fishing
 
Trappnman,
I agree with you and am glad to see people like you out in the world...Keep up your beliefs and good hunt'n!!

------------------
Bus-Bus
 
well said trappnman.

------------------
wolf_howl_md_wht.gif
 
Hi Trappnman.

Welcome to PM, we love to have active members with intelligent questions and points of view. I know you are an acquaintance of Wiley's, and I am a little puzzled that you are addressing your comments to me. The fact is, I couldn't agree more with everything you said, I hope I didn't give someone the impression that I was against individual choice. Some people state their case as a matter of right and wrong. I believe it is enough that we all pursue predators, your reasons don't matter to me, in the slightest. I have personal ethics, since I'm a recreational caller, but I have abiding sympathy for the rancher and farmer. What they do is none of my business. I also admire the pursuit of these sporting animals for the harvest; be it fur, skulls, or any other usable parts. But, I don't believe it is REQUIRED. I take fur when I want it. If I had to tan every animal I killed, I'd have run out of room a long time ago, or do a lot less hunting. Now, that's a scary thought!

Anyway, this Forum is not about what I do or what I believe, it is for the free exchange of ideas by beginners and experts alike; both amateur and professional. You may express any personal conviction, and you, might likely, have to listen to opposing points of view, but you may be more than a little enriched in the process.

The only caveat is, (and this is for everybody) please don't engage in personal attacks, when you don't share the same attitude, and you cannot agree. State your case for all you're worth, but show respect. It's worth it.

Good hunting. LB
 
Leonard- I just saw your comment in the post on skinning about enough is enough, and I see your point. I just wanted you to know that I wasn't trying to be a troublemaker, just wanted to give my view. trappnman

------------------
Your American heritage- Fur Trapping, Hunting and Fishing
 
Leonard,
Just wanted you to know that I was not trying to cause problems in the other topic..I am usually pretty quite when it comes to conflict..but when someone casts a stone at me I am only human..I have to stand my ground and throw back...But I am glad to be here and I do really enjoy everybody and there ideals and knowledge on predator hunting and all the other topics... I truly feel you guys are doing a very good job on this website and I feel that ya'll have out done the competition..Hands Down!!
Good Job To All the Moderators and all others that took part in putting this place together!!

------------------
Bus-Bus
 
Hi Rob, thanks for the wolf link. Man that is alot of info. Hope I didn't sound like a wolf hugger from my post. Don't know much about them. I know there are alot of mixed feelings on the subject. I would like one on my wall though.
smile.gif
About the only thing I know about wolves is they are one of the coyotes only natural enemies. I have read that back when coyotes were only located in the Northwest US it was largely because of the high wolf population.

Trappnman, I have to admit the first time I read your topic, I did not read it very close. After all the kudos you got I went back and read it again. Well said by you and Leonard.
 
My .02 worth,
No such thing as a perfect world, never was never will be, things die things live, once in a while one creature or another gets the upper hand and flourishes then the table is turned,
to address the wolf issue, its a fact that the wolf will reduce the coyote population- the next question is what you going to do with the wolf,
 
Wolves apparently cannot co-exist, primarily because of economic issues. Coyotes have rushed into the vacuum. Who knows what's next but man will always have an impact, that seems pretty clear to me.

In ancient times, lions were common in northern Africa, and in Europe too. Europe still has a few wolves, for that matter, but not like before. You can't stop civilization.

Those that want to return the land to the buffalo and establish extensive wilderness are not being realistic. We are not going, to whence we came; be it Europe or Africa.

I tend to think of the coyote as the mammal of the future, here in the lower 48. I don't see anything that will prevent him from becoming more dominant, each suceeding year.

I don't think we can afford to bankroll the wolf reintroduction, it won't work unless we move the people further and further away from their artificial boundaries. The people that live in these areas won't support it.

Many people in California don't support the protection of lions. People never obeyed the 55 mile per hour law, a huge joke. Most of the growth in the US has been western, Nevada and Arizona with huge percentage increases.

What happens when they build subdivisions surounding a dairy farm? In short time, the new people complain about the smell, and the dairy gets rezoned out of business and/or relocates. When it gets to the point where there are yuppie suburban developments surounding Yellowstone, there will be unsolveable conflict.

I'm betting that the animal that can't adapt, will lose; it's happened before. Soon, we all might be "expected" to get a limit of coyote. Or maybe surround the villages with thorn bushes every night, and keep the fires lit, to keep the beasts at bay. Things just keep evolving.
smile.gif


Good hunting. LB

[This message has been edited by Leonard (edited 04-15-2001).]
 
Not sure about the "keep the beasts at bay" part but I agree with the yuppie sub-division bit.I see city people every day move out to the country and then gripe about the smells and sounds and people.If they don't like the way the country is STAY in the city.Were I was raised some of the best dove hunts I have ever been on took place in in a field thats now now a "country sub-division".Kind of an oxymoron hu?So I don't think that things will ever be the same as they were a hundred years ago.Buffalo will never roam the prarie and wolves will never roam the woods,because there won't be any woods or praries.It'll be one giant sub-division.I hope I never live see it but the developements I have seen in my short life seem to point in that direction.

Later,
Justin

------------------

predatorlogo3jpg.gif

http://www.predatormasters.com

[This message has been edited by Jbrad (edited 04-15-2001).]
 
Leonard what a great piece you wrote.

All things seem to have an analogy, mine usually deal with horses , seeing as how they are what occupy my mind most often.

I was teaching a clinic recently and a lady asked why her horse was pushing her around on the ground.
I guess I was feeling sarcastic, or slightly fed up with the ignorance that I try so hard to ignore
smile.gif


Whatever reason, I answered, why maa'm I imagine its because he can!

The wolf reintroduction has always hit me the same way. Because they can.
Times are fat, people are bored , they want something to fulfill their desire to make a difference.
And they can, not always for the better of course but because times are good there is not enough people saying "folks pull your heads out because we have bigger issues at hand.
So ignorance runs rampant, and unchecked.
 
Studies have shown in low population areas, female can have up to 19 pups in as litter. - Trappnman

Trappnman, can you furnish those studies. If you have time, you need to pop a top and read Steve Allens comments on litter size in the biology dept of this forum. I copied Steve's comments and gave them to a pilot with 25 years ADC experience and a retired ADC trapper with 30 years experience. Both said that Steve Allen put into words what they have been trying to say all along. Litter size is a function of coyote population dynamics not of nutrition. Steve puts it well when he said, "I have never seen a skinny coyote". I am sure he has as a result of mange but not one that is healthy. Nutrition is seldom an issue with coyotes so litter size is not usually a result of nutrition.

Now, before you jump on the defense here, I thought and stated the exact same thing you just did. Steve Allen set me straight and it made perfect sense. I was pretty sure what was occuring but I was wrong about what caused it. Read his comments on litter size and if you want to respond to this, post it in the biology dept. and we can discuss it. It's an interesting topic. Wiley E
 
Back
Top