Four Fawns?

K

KeeKee

New member
I was on my way home from work Friday morning ( I work Midnights so I travel 45 one way at daylight) I always see alot of game on the drive to and from. But Friday was way cool drive. The road I drive runs right up the Ohio river, and its all crop fields, Im always looking for coyotes, because I got permishion to hunt it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I looked over in a bean field and there was a doe that had four fawns! Thats something you just dont see much here, two most of the time and every once in awhile three. This is the first time I ever seen on doe have four around here. So that was cool.

On down the road I looked over and there was a coyote, thing was he had a bob tail! I drove past and seen the tail, went down and turned around and went back. He had made his way out in the field that had just been cutt, he took a look at me and took off on the run. But, he was a bob tail! I tought this was cool to...

Was a pretty good drive home I gess!

Kee
 
WOW :eek: That is unreal.Can't say I have ever seen a Doe with more than one fawn at a time.Things must be looking good comeing this next couple of Deer seasons in your neck of the woods.
 
keekeeyelp - Mature does usually have twins, and thats why you see a doe and 2 fawns. The does in high deer concentration areas can be seen moving together in bow season here. Its like some large family group, and have seen as many does and fawns under one huge white oak tree I hunt during early bow season in CT. Not one buck in the bunch.

The mother was most likely nearby, or she could have been killed, and now the fawns have just tagged along with another familiar doe. They don't need to nurse this time of year, yet will stay with the group they are used to.

Thats not sientific fact, just what I've seen. I would concentrate hard on killing as many 'yotes as possible in that area, or your deer herd will slip badly.

The state estimates that coyotes kill 70% of all fawns in Ma., and our deer herd here in Western Ma. is gone from an estimated 18 deer per square mile to an estimated 5 per square mile, with no signs of rebounding.

I'm not sure coyotes kill deer in every state, but our 'yotes can get huge, and there are reports of mature deer being killed by them. I have seen an enormous decline of deer in Columbia county N.Y., and areas of Ct that border Ma. Areas of CT. near the coast where I've not seen coyotes have an almost unbeilievable amount of deer. I hunt there /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Kill them 'yotes, Sleddogg
 
Sleddogg,

Thats what I thought, maybe there mother was ran over by a car or something. Seeing a doe with three fawns here is something we see some of. These fawns were very small, for this time of year. Made me think that maybe they belonged to the one doe. There wasnt no place for another doe to be with out me being able to see her, they were in a huge crop field. I dont know but if she had four fawns it would be the first for me! I just wonderd if antone had ever seen a doe with four fawns before?

Coyotes kill there share of fawns here, thats for sure, and we get some big coyotes here to. I dont think they kill many health full grown deer here though. I would say the ones that are sick or wounded dont last long though.

I have seen coyotes chase deer here tough. Several times. I killed one on the deer stand a few years ago that was tracking a doe that had just came buy me.

Kee
 
Now we're talking! I've been hunting predators and reading about them for about 4-5 years now but deer have been my life since I was a tot. My family has been raising whitetails for about 6-7 years now so I have some experience in this field.

Mature does do usually have twins, not always but usually. Triplets are rare, much moreso than a doe having one fawn. Does usually follow the same offspring numbers year after year so if she dumps out a single she probably will for life, twins the same way.

Triplets do not always follow suit in this way, a doe that pumps out twins may toss triplets out once and never again... but you do hear of it happening. Quads are a mysterious little legend that I have never seen in person. I've read where some game breeders have had this phenomenon but I'd be interested in seeing the odds... they are slim at best!

I'm not calling anyone a liar or stirring the pot or anything but must continue to say... fawns are still nursing and will probably continue to do so until mid-late september. They are not DEPENDANT on the nutritian right now but the does haven't started beefing up for the winter so they will still allow the nursing to take place.

The doe with four fawns could've been one of those rare mother of quads. She could've also been a mother of twins that picked up her orphaned nieces and nephews for a fallen doe. Reading the post it made me wonder if the other doe couldn't have been bedded down, maybe in tall beans? Statistically there SHOULD'VE been another doe in the area... but its not necessarily the case.

If she was carrying quads she sure has done a good job because usually mothers of twins lose one by this time of year. If those little suckers make it another month or so and beef up for the winter they will be in good shape. Of corse if they are runted down because of having to share their mother so much they could fall victim during the winter since they are so undersized.

If all four are siblings there should be one big one and one runt in the group... there is almost always a dominant one and a wimpy one that get different shares of the nutrients during infancy. Then again, your talking about something that not much research is available on... anything is possible. I'd get some video or photo's if I were you, and post em' up if you can!
 
jrbhunter,

Thanks! Thats what I was looking for, or the info I wanted. I travel this road 6 days a week, and this is the first time I have seen them. I did put the dig camera in the truck! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I would love to get a shot of them!

Like I said, they were all very very small for this time of year, alot smaller than any of the other fawns I have seen this year. I know it was a shock for me to see. There could of been another doe around bedded down. The beans here are tall right now but they were out in a little grassy area that has water in it all the time and they dont plant that spot. Thats what made them stick out when I went by.

I will be on the look out for them now...lol..I would like to get a pic of them!

Kee
 
I know what you mean about traveling a roadway, I usually have a couple deer between here and the office patterned like clockwork. I actually met a guy one time that had permission to hunt some property I "road hunt" and told him to get as close to a certain big sycamore as he could in the mornings... the next monday I noticed a doe missing! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif That was awesome!

By the same token, if you watch the fields that hard she would've definatly had to come out to replenish her own body milking that many fawns... she should've been a regular! If you don't see her out there again I'd guess she was just babysitting. Also, if they ARE hers then they will probably die in early winter because she cant get four of them up to size quick enough... actually it doesn't matter if they are all hers or not... if they are undersized now they could be screwed when the winter comes! The first nine months of a deers life are HARD, the fact they've made it this far is surprising but I'll be pulling for em'! Get those pics!
 
I can't add to the deer discussion but I did see an old coyote with a bobed tail in Yellowstone. I have also killed an old grouse with just one leg. As others have said, it's hard out there...
 
I got the number of that bob tail coyote! I will be seeing him again soon! ( I hope) Your right! It is hard out there!

jb,

That was the first thing that came to my mind when I seen them was how small they were! I was conserned they wouldnt make it! But I will say that I have seen several very very small fawns in the last few weeks. Is this a first year doe that came into heat late in the season? I have seen a couple down in the bean fields that are very small, for this time of year? Whats your take on this?

Kee
 
If you think the runts are a broad based problem I'd guess a little larger factor is in play. Perhaps the does or deer in that area came down with an illness, flu or cold that affected their beefing up and/or milk production and that carried over into their fawns health? Maybe the beans in those river bottoms didn't produce or THEY caught some sort of blight and the deer are having a harder time finding nutrients than normal. I know the rut was pretty much right on cue last year, all fawns should've dropped June 2nd-9th so them all being the same size means more than an occasional late heater.

If it were a yearling fawn with those yearlings they'd surely be dead by now. The first fawns a doe puts out have it even harder than most, her motherly instincts aren't always what they should be on her first go around. I can't imagine any yearling raising quads, they have a hard time with twins usually. Some yearling does will drop the fawn and walk away without looking back... they just don't have it yet.

Without sounding like I'm questioning your woodsmanship, the whole story comes together to make me ask a question. Are the beans dwarfing the deer? That would explain a doe being bedded down and the fawns being pint sized... seems too easy! Like I said, not giving you crap, just sounds like something I and others have fallen into before when beans come on in the river bottoms (I live in the ohio river bottoms too) produce some 4' soybeans.

Otherwise I'd say it was some sort of stunting affect on the Beans or the Deer that caused these malfunctions in the circle of life. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
No, I should of been more clear! The doe with the four fawns was not small, she was full grown and very healthy, the fawns were very small. She was very healthy looking.

The other small fawns I have seen have been from diffrent areas,not just around the bean fields and not all the fawns I have seen were small, just a few, alot more than I usually see.

The reason I ask is with seeing the smaller fawns out in the county, I was wanting your take on a second rut or late rut.

How did you come up with a date for the fawn drop?

I got my thoughts on what happend or why there are small fawns but im just looking for other thoughts and info. Its very interesting to talk with someone who has deer, im just trying to get your thoughts on things.

Your not giving me any crap! I like to hear other peoples thoughts on things to. Let er rip!

Kee
 
Yeah there is a second rut, it follows 28 days (I think) after the original rut. Its a weak rut, where a very small percentage of does come back into heat. Of corse if two does are in heat then every buck in the county acts like an idiot again... thats why it benefits us as hunters so much but it doesn't play such a big role in the overall scheme of things as far as birthing goes. The fawns drop predictably after the gestation period every year. Its like clockwork but the instigation for the rut is always up in the air.

The weather patterns, moon phases and all kinds of variables have influence over when the does come into heat, although it all revolves around the general nature calander. There are never ending theories on how it all comes about, sort of the "chicken or the egg" theories about the whitetails rut. It is widely believed that bucks start feeling their oats in certain weather/moon phases and begin rubbing and scraping... THIS in turn instigates the does to begin ovulation and THAT begins the true rut patterns that we know and love as hunters.

The size difference in fawns may be partially caused by the different ovulation cycles but I don't think thats what you are seeing. I'll send out a note tomorrow and see if anyone has any better ideas than I do on what you are seeing. I'll let you know what I find.

I'm losing focus now... the Bush twins are on TV and they have me utterly discombobulated! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
I find it interesting that you say the weather has a part in hen the does come into heat.

IMO, The weather palys a roll in how active the rut is as far as movement or chasing goes. But, I thing the moon phase's and shorter day light hrs really sets the rut. Thats just my take, and its not fact. I have noticed that it seems that the bucks rut earlyer in some areas compaired to others. I have one farm I can count on buck movements and Chasing from the last week in Oct thru the first week in Nov. Then around 60 miles away on another farm its dead till the middle of the first week in Nov. Then it gets hot for the next two weeks.

I havent got to be in the woods the last couple years for the later part of the deer season. We only get one buck tag ans I have been lucky to kill mine the last few years during the first week on Nov. So, I cant say that I have seen much movement on the second rut. But I have not seen much, when I ws out coyote callen, or night hunting.

Tell me more on your thoughts on the fawn drop and how you come up with your dates? This could be very good info for picking days in the rut to hunt and for coyote hunting when the fawns drop.

Yellowhammer......You got any feed back on any of this? From your studys?

Kee
 
Well those theories on the rut and its stimulation aren't all MY thinking... thats what a lot of experts and columnist come up with. Like I said, there are two obvious sides of the debate then there are a lot of other folks on the fringe with various theories. Some say does come into heat (they share variations of opinion on how she does it) then that creates the bucks rutting. Then others say the bucks begin the sign marking by rubs and scrapes (varying in opinion on when, where and why) then the does follow along by ovulating and sparking the true blue rut.

The rut is a topic like politics or religion amongst serious dedicated deer hunters. People get fighting mad over it! I personally hunt by the moon wheel, I find it a great piece of equipment and have been very sucessful with it. The moon will spark the ACTIVITY of deer, thus increasing the chances of a doe-in-heat passing down a trail.

I'd say the biggest difference I find in my style of hunting and other guys is, I hunt. Every day. All day. Its rainy, windy and the moon wheel says NO WAY I'm reading all that in my tree stand. My theory is "You can't kill em' on the couch" and I top that off with "A bad day in the woods is better than a good day in the office".

The risk a guy runs with this method is burning out, I've had guys tag along for a week or two but they always burn out... even if they don't want to admit it. I get the phone call on my way to the truck and I shake my head... usually let the awnsering machine get it, "Hey man, too many beers last night... gonna sleep in" I have never had a problem with burning out, although I sometimes lose the spark of an opening weekend I don't let the fire go out until the last day of season.

Spending all this time in the woods, weather it be hunting for myself or guiding whitetail hunts I get a lot of experience on movement and behavior. Top that off with up close observation of your quary all year round and you've got yourself a good knowledge base! With all of this in my back pocket I try not to read too much into what "experts" say in magazines... partially because I've hunted and bull****ted with some of these "experts"! I'm by no means saying that they are all full of BS but there are reasons they all dispute each other so much... they don't KNOW the awnsers.

I do know that your fawns are going to drop within a week or two of the same time every year and your looking at about 85% of them hitting the ground in a 5-7 day period. Therefor if you backtrack that means the rut is pretty predictable as well. After we see the rut we can mark it down and calculate the gestation period to find the drop days. If all you are after is knowing when to hunt predators you should be fine knowing that two week period, we need to research it much more thoroughly in order to be there the DAYS they drop so every year we do research and checkups to pinpoint it. When I say we... I really mean I'm a spectator /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif but if you want dates I could get them. There are always your early birds and your late bloomers... they vary a lot sometimes.

There are freak occurances of fawns dropping April just as there are some in August but then again you are back to quad odds. After years of trying to manage wild animals I don't doubt anything I hear... if a guy sees a newborn in October I just shake my head and wonder how the hell we're ever going to get a leg up on ours! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Nature is weird, things happen but mother nature has a way of making things happen such that the chance of survival is highest. The more fawns that fall at once the better, the timing they fall is important on both ends of the doe's year... her leadup and post pregnancy is crucial much less the early life of the fawn.

We've actually had a very hard year on our fawns for some reason, vets can't tell us why. I haven't been seeing them in the wild much either, I don't think its a phamon type thing but it is definatly noticably worse than normal. I'll be getting into spotlighting a lot in the near future and I'll get a good feel for whats out there and whats going on. Do you spotlight KEEKEE? I find it pretty helpful and it always gets the blood pumping to say the least! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hope this helps, if you want some better more concrete information give me the questions and I'll forward em' on too a couple guys.
 
Good info there, I love to talk habits and get everyones thoughts on them. Dont want you think im being pushy.Im just picking your brain. Just good info!

I agree that spending as much time in the stand as you can is a good way to get info and a great way to hunt! Your right you cant kill them in the house! I hunt predators the same way! I do set the stand for deer all day myself, but not untill the rut or just right before. I have spent some long wet days in the stand myself and know were you are coming from.

I have done a little hunting by the moon charts, and cant say that it has payed off for me. I have killed bucks when the chart said it was prime movement times and I have killed them when it said it sucked to. I keep alot of records on game movement on the laptop. Number of animals seen, times, dates, weather, all that good stuff. And I am starting to get a good base of info to go off of, but I have along way to go to. And I will add this thread to the folder of info. Do you keep records of sightings, weather and stuff?

And your right every (expert) you talk with has a diffrent opinion of the rut and times. I like to talk with them though, just to see how there thought compair to mine. Some do and some dont. Its all pretty good info though and alot of them think along the same lines. Just diffrent things for diffrent people I gess.

Nope, no spot lighting here! They wont let us. I would love to be able to get out and have a look at whats coming out to feed late at night but gamewardens here dont care much for that! Wish we could though. We haft to catch them crossing in front of the truck.

Kee
 
Hey, thats cool that you keep records like that. I intend to do the same thing this season, along with pictures and lots of em'. I have recorded the weather and circumstances of every kill I've made, I've been expanding on the stories to WHY I chose that stand and what happened afterwards and things but I intend to get down to the details this season.

I've killed deer on both ends of the moon spectrum as well but there is no denying the difference in animal movement. I don't push the correlation between the moon and mature whitetails as much as a lot of guys but I'll tell you this... when you're hunting a wise old buck and he's gone all but nocturnal on you there are two things that will bring him under your stand in the daylight. One is the moon and the other is walking on four legs and leaking blood down her leg! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

That sucks about the spotlighting out your way, I suppose its completely illegal? I was wondering if you meant the DNR boys just DISLIKE it because it makes their job harder or something. I say tough **** , its legal here and they do get agitated. I don't mind being pulled over at all, if it prevents a poacher from getting comfortable I don't mind being inconveinced in the least. Have you ever been able to do it? Any experience or is it completely new to you? Its a real trip, I love it... I could ride around all night looking at the different animals doing different things when they think nobody is watching. Its awesome.
 
Nope, spotlighting here will get you a ticket or worse! I see alot of deer when I m out predator callen but just cant go out and shine the fields.

We use to be able to do it in Ky, but now they have changed the law and you cant do it there either. So, haft to go back to the old ways! We still go out and drive around alot, locating coyotes and see some good buck, but its not like being able to shine for them. We use to see some monsters that way, and it gave us a great idea what was in the area.

Kee
 
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