223 Ballistic Silvertips for White Tail Deer??? pics added

Great articles. News to some, merely stating the obvious to others. Energy figures mean NOTHING without considering bore size and bullet weight also. In the one test the 223 penetrated just about the same as the 358, but the wound cavity was less than half the size. Like I said, no doubt the 223 will take deer, but it is still less effective than most anything else, including larger bore, slower moving handgun cartridges with half the muzzle energy... When larger critters are considered, the gap widens a whole lot more.....2MG
 
TKO is a momentum based formula, great for silhouette and bowling pins---not so great for determining what a bullet will do INSIDE an animal! TKO was originally designed to give an indication of what cartridge would be best for stunning a headshot elephant. It was assumed that a brainshot elephant would be dead instantly but in those cases where the bullet just barely missed (the brain) a bullet that kept the stunned animal on the little longer was immensely beneficial in that the hunter (Taylor) could get in a quick coup de' grace shot.
The .223 with the right bullets would do a fine job, especially at 50 yards. Jack was absolutely right! --- Mike
 
I would disagree with you. Sure there are other factors besides energy but energy ALWAYS means something, alot in fact when it comes to killing power. It means even more in a smaller caliber. You used a .358 as an example. Well, the .358 is, if anything, on the large side for deer. Sure it'll do a great job but the cartridge is really a short action elk cartridge that is ALSO used on deer. I'm not surprised that the .223 does half the damage of a .358 in the example you mention. The REAL point that should be mentioned is that the .223 with the right bullets for the job give SUFFICIENT damage for quick, clean kills! There are just WAY TOO MANY success stories for this not to be true! By the way, put in some lightweight .357 pistol bullets in the .358 (110, 125) and see what kind of tissue damage and penetration they'd give on a deer. Of course you wouldn't (I wouldn't either) because it would be like shooting an oversized .22 centerfire varmint bullet--a recipe for disaster on deer!
Energy alone is NOT a good indicator of killing power. Energy AND a properly constructed bullet is! All the bullet needs is enough energy to cause it to do its' job on the INSIDE of the animal. On a deer at 50 yards (or even further for that matter), a .223 has enough energy to work PROPERLY on the inside of a deer with the better bullets we have nowadays!
 
I have shot dozens of Sitka blacktail deer on the Queen Charlotte Islands off the coast of British Columbia just south of Alaska with a 22-250 and 55gr Sierra Varminter bullets @ 3660fps. I placed every shot into the neck which resulted in a 1/4" hole in and a 2" hole out and nothing but hide holding the head on the animal. All of these deer dropped instantly and I did not take shots beyond 100 yards with these bullets.

That rifle is now long gone to a buddy that just had to have it so I now have a Rem 700P with 1-9 twist in 223 with a 6X-24X Bushnell Elite 4200 a/o mil-dot scope and had been looking for a bullet to hunt deer with if the opportunity ever presented itself when I was out varmint shooting.

I just recently ordered a box of 75gr Swift Scirocco's which is a bounded core bullet to try out for this purpose.

Even though I will most likely be shooting one hole groups at 100 yards I will not take a shot at a deer with this cartridge if it is beyond 100-120 yards and I will probably only take lung shots.
 
.Mike--I fail to see where you have proven me wrong on one thing I said. The reason I compared the 223 to the 357 and 358 is because that is what Jack said, and that is also what was shown in the tests, which specified a 60gr NosPart by the way(sufficient in the 223). I said that the 223 would kill deer no doubt, but that I wouldn,t use ballistic tips. What goes on INSIDE the deer is a wound channel, and the 223 LIKE I SAID, makes the smallest, and like I said is a poorer choice than most. Fast moving small bullets are less effective than larger ones at moderate speeds. Know this is a fact, have seen it first hand too many times. Energy alone is NOT a determinant of killing power. Other factors must be considered.TKO factors in bullet diameter, weight, and velocity. The statement that a 223 has half again as much energy of a 44mag must mean it is more effective is simply not true. Don't know how many deer you've shot, but I'm right certain which one will drop a deer quicker on any type of body shot. Seen plenty of large bore handguns(with less energy than a 223) used as backup guns in bear country, ain't seen a 223 yet. Why would you suppose that is? You must know something all the guides don't /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif By the way, I guarantee you the 358 has been used on far more deer than it has on elk---2MG
 
A good friend of mine and his wife back in MD have been shooting the same calibers at deer for about 10 years. He has been using a 44mag and she has been shooting a TC in 223, almost every year the 44mag shot deer run much further(on average about 3Xs as far) than the 223 shot deer. True, we are only talking about maybe 30-40 deer and maybe she is a better shot but not likely as he has been shooting competitions for 25 years.

Just reporting what one couple has experienced in the last 10 years. YMMV

Jack
 
I've always found the larger, slower moving stuff to kill faster. Not that I haven't seen the smaller stuff do it nicely. It would not surprise me for a 223 to kill faster at close range on deer than a larger bullet at the same speed. The larger ones tend to just punch right through sometimes, with little shock value, not expending all of their energy in the deer. My buddy's dad cursed his 7mm mag for this for years. Called it the worst deer rifle he ever saw, stating that the old stuff, like the 30-30 and 35 Rem killed much better. At close to moderate range, he was right---2MG
 
Taylor, Michigan eh? I used to live in Brownstown, Michigan right next door to you!;0)
In my post, I never defended the Ballistic Tip either. I have no qualms about the Nosler though. I have no qualms about the .357 for that matter (even in a revolver) for the ranges mentioned. Truth is, both cartridges will get the job done with no problem if used properly.
Your point about the .358 being used in bear country has me scratching my head because no one in this thread (least of all me) would ever say that the .223 was anywhere near close to the .358 in stopping power. Also your point about the .358 being used on more deer than elk is beside the point too even though you're probably right. There ARE a whole lot more deer shot than elk! I know that but the .358 was DESIGNED to be a pretty decent elk cartridge in short-action rifles and carbines! More deer are killed with '06's than elk but fact is, the old '06 is really more gun than is needed for deer.
By the way, I'm sorry if I came across as trying to make you "wrong." Actually, I don't think you're wrong, definitely not in the post I'm replying to for sure. I think I may have misunderstood a couple things in your original post. In this post, can't see anything I would disagree with.
Energy, while extremely important, by no means tells the whole story (just part of the story). The TKO has value for inanimate objects and elephant skulls (which it was originally designed for) but doesn't say a single thing about how a bullet will act INSIDE an animal. The Ballistic Tip might be the worst possible choice in a centerfire .22 for deer. The Nosler is one of the best choices in a .22 centerfire for deer. In no way does it compare to the .358 but it IS sufficient for whitetails, especially at modest ranges.--- Mike
 
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