.Mike--I fail to see where you have proven me wrong on one thing I said. The reason I compared the 223 to the 357 and 358 is because that is what Jack said, and that is also what was shown in the tests, which specified a 60gr NosPart by the way(sufficient in the 223). I said that the 223 would kill deer no doubt, but that I wouldn,t use ballistic tips. What goes on INSIDE the deer is a wound channel, and the 223 LIKE I SAID, makes the smallest, and like I said is a poorer choice than most. Fast moving small bullets are less effective than larger ones at moderate speeds. Know this is a fact, have seen it first hand too many times. Energy alone is NOT a determinant of killing power. Other factors must be considered.TKO factors in bullet diameter, weight, and velocity. The statement that a 223 has half again as much energy of a 44mag must mean it is more effective is simply not true. Don't know how many deer you've shot, but I'm right certain which one will drop a deer quicker on any type of body shot. Seen plenty of large bore handguns(with less energy than a 223) used as backup guns in bear country, ain't seen a 223 yet. Why would you suppose that is? You must know something all the guides don't /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif By the way, I guarantee you the 358 has been used on far more deer than it has on elk---2MG