???Steve Allen, others RE: red fox/yotes

trappnman

New member
So Steve- now you are retired, retired? LOL

On another forum, we are discussing red fox populations, and reasons for them being displaced (or not) by coyotes. In other words- is the expansion of the coyote (really both western and eastern)the dominant factor in the decreased red fox populations that most of the country is seeing? I believe that it is most likely so. But the information I have been able to dig up through surfing (even falling back on gopher, Archie etc LOL-lot of dead ends in that system!) hasn't been conclusive. Many studies hint or say "research shows.. but never give footnotes on sources. Its like a rumor passed from hallway to hallway. Many studies do show that many factors have a huge effect on red fox mortality- rabies, distemper, mange and predators. Several studies list raptors as maybe being the top predator. In addition- fox need a little bit more specilized habitat- the reduction of set aside acres and the intense farming practices of today have eliminated much of the traditional territory for fox- jthe fields are just too open. But coyotes thrive in this type of situation.

So my question is this- are coyotes deplacing red fox- as an advancing army- taking territory acre by acre, mile by mile?

If a healthy red fox populations exists- and if coyotes are present- within a few years will the coyotes have displaced the fox- except for isolated pockets near heavy cover?

Or, if suitable habitat exists for both, both will somewhat co-exist? That true takeover of regions by yotes is when conditions dictate low or absent fox populations- in other words a void is created- and at that point the coyotes take over the space?

Where I live in SE Minnesota, we have always had fox. Up north, they have always had coyotes, or "brush wolves". Starting in the 60s, through the early 80s- we had both major land use changes taking place- on many levels- farming techniques, expanding subburbs, set asides, wetland use- and a fur boom like perhaps no other. Add in the other factors- and we are back to the question- the chicken or the egg?

Please, while I value your opinion, I have heard and listened to all sides. As Joe Friday would say I just need the facts.

Is there definitive proof one way or the other on this issue?
Thank you.....trappnman


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Your American Heritage- Fur Trapping, Hunting and Fishing
 
Trappnman--The answer to your question is "Yes", but more by township after township rather than mile by mile. The coyotes are the reason that foxes (at least red foxes) are declining in many areas.

We don't see much direct contact between the 2 species, because most of the "war games" occur at night. Both species are extremely nocturnal, of course. Additionally, from what we saw most of the interactions are for space (e.g. territorial imperative or something like that). What generally happens is that the coyotes move in and set up a territory, and the foxes have a decision to make--get out or get killed. We suspect most of the resident foxes leave; however, we don't know this for sure. However, we don't see many dead foxes laying around the country; we do see dead red fox pups at dens, however. The higher the coyote density gets the fewer red foxes will be around, but there will always be a few that find a small spot that none of the coyotes want.

Re: management, the only way to reverse this is that the coyotes have to die. They can die from fur harvesters (moderately expensive, but the expense is borne by private business), government intervention (very expensive, and cost is borne by taxpayers), or by wolves (very inexpensive, but politically a hand grenade with the pin pulled). The only other choice is a major epizootic (e.g. mange), but this will likely affect a bunch of species. Other than that there are no other options.

Re: habitat; we never saw habitat have any affect whatsoever on densities of either species. We saw fox populations of equivalent densities in the early 70's on land that was 80% cultivate and on land that was only 20% cultivated. Additionally, in the 90's we saw equivalent coyote populations on land that was 100% rangeland, and on land that was at least 50% cultivated. I have seen some really high red fox populations in sw ND where the habitat is virtually all rangeland with lots of sage brush flats, dry washes and wooded draws--the country looks about like a Marlboro advertisement.

Bottom line is whichever species is the biggest dog in the area will govern the whole show in that area; neither habitat, food, weather, proximity to human populations will have any affect. Each canid species likes each other fairly well, but it all ends there; they all hate the next species either larger or smaller. Of course, only the largest one can do anything about it. I realize that is hard to believe, but we simply don't have any data to the contrary; I don't know of anyone else that does either.

ok, but how did all of this happen? At least in the west it was related to political changes re: predators and their management. For example, in 1972 there was a ban on the use of toxicants for coyote control and a ban on aerial hunting of all species in the same year. Immediately, part of the annual mortality pressure on coyotes and red fox was removed, and the populations started putting money in the bank instead of taking it out of the bank so to speak. But then the interspecific competition takes over and the coyotes continue to increase and the red foxes begin to decline. This doesn't happen immediately, but it takes a number of years.

There are only 2 things that affect population size; reproduction and mortality. Dispersal and movement become negligible if we expand the study area large enough to contain all the movement. Further, reproduction is reasonably constant (sort of), but it is much more constant than mortality. Mortality can be affected strongly by pelt prices (e.g. the late 70's), and by politics (govt. removal of coyotes, etc). Thus, if the populations of the larger canid species move out of the red and into the black it is at the expense of the smaller canid species. This makes for some interesting management decisions; kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I'm gonna quit for now, but I think I have answered your questions. If not, post back but realize that it may be awhile before I check in again.

Excellent questions by the way!
 
Steve- Thanks for responding. Yes, you did answer my questions, and my own observations are in line with this. But, as in any good dialogue, you answers raised some more questions.

"We suspect most of the resident foxes leave; however, we don't know this for sure. However, we don't see many dead foxes laying around the country; we do see dead red fox pups at dens, however."

You know- now that I think of it, neither do I- and I am in the fields trapping gophers all summer and early fall- and I see both live yotes and fox, but no dead fox. I don't go into the denning areas, but would imagine that fox dens are easy marks for coyotes.

So if the majority of fox move out- are they actually chased out- or do they naturally vacate territory? Do coyotes actively chase down and kill fox- or just harrass them?

"Re: habitat; we never saw habitat have any affect whatsoever on densities of either species."

Ok- I am confused. 1) Coyote territory is based on habitat in that territory concerning denning, escape cover and food needs. 2) The less suitable habitat, the larger the territories need to be to supply the family groups needs 3) Each territory is controlled by a dominant pair and younger family members, until dispersal. 4) The size of that family is fairly consistent (I am under impression of 5-10 animals on average?) 5) Therefore, given consistent family sizes, and assuming less suitable territory means bigger territories, bigger territories must mean less yotes per sq mile (density) 6) and conversely, top habitat areas would in fact allow family groups to need smaller terriories to have all needs met, so 7) Therefore prime habitat areas allow a larger number of yotes per sq mile.

Well Doc, get your red pencil out!!!! LOL

"There are only 2 things that affect population size; reproduction and mortality. Dispersal and movement become negligible if we expand the study area large enough to contain all the movement. Further, reproduction is reasonably constant (sort of), but it is much more constant than mortality. Mortality can be affected strongly by pelt prices (e.g. the late 70's), and by politics (govt. removal of coyotes, etc)."

So, would it be fair to say that the fur boom in effect caused a serious population downsize, and the coyotes filled the void?

Now- here is why you get (got) the big money-

I am going to ask the million dollar question: Assume there was no fur boom, no disease epidemics to lower red fox populations- would the coyote still have gotten to where he is today- albiet a little slower?

Well, as long as you are here- one last question Steve- if the coyote is now dominant- why did it take so long? Lets look at east. No wolves really for 200 years, no gov programs- yet red fox dominated for 150 years? Why exploding populations now?
Why are the coyotes deplacing red fox NOW?

Thanks for your answers- they are appreciated....trappnman

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Your American Heritage- Fur Trapping, Hunting and Fishing
 
trappnman--there is at least one paper out there that seriously looks at coyote-fox interaction. i thought I had a copy of it, but it ain't in my system so it effectively ain't here. I will look for it next week. I believe their findings suggested coyotes don't necessarily exclude fox, and I am fairly certain they found no evidence of direct mortality--but it's been awhile since I read it.

Here (Interior AK) there is an extremaly healthy fox population and a fair (and probably growing--ask me in 10 years!) coyote population. They seem to happily coexist--I catch a few of each in the same areas. As a side note, I have found two fox that were apparently preyed upon by lynx--smeared fox and lynx tracks in the area--who knows what actually happened.

As Steve said, habitat doesn't seem to be a factor in coyote expansion--rumor has it that they followed the miners up here ~100 yr ago, but I have never seen that published either.

Why are the dynamics so--well, dynamic now and not in the past? My SWAG (Scientific Wild-As$ed Guess) is people--at least that seems to be the case up here. What about people? I don't have a clue. Maybe coyotes just like to follow roads...

I will try to get a citation on that paper--IT (as in ONE that I know of) exists!
 
I actually had these two in my stash, but not in my 'puter--they are now! I didn't remember the first one (sorry SA), but I do believe I recognize the name of the second author.

Twice the fun I had remembered!

Sargeant, A. B., S. H. Allen, and J. O. Hastings. 1987. Spatial relations between sympatric coyotes and red foxes in North Dakota. Journal of Wildlife Management 51(2): 285-293.

I think there is someone here more qualified than I am to comment on this one!

Theberge, J. B., and C. H. R. Wedeles. 1989. Prey selection and habitat partitioning in sympatric coyote and red fox populations, southwest Yukon. Canadian Journal of Zoology 67: 1285-1290.

From the abstract: The coexistence of red foxes and coyotes in the southwest Yukon may be facilitated by balancing competitive abilities: foxes persist because of elasticity in their choice of prey and coyotes persist by dominating edges.

Perhaps I was unwittingly onto something earlier--coyotes like edges, and people are really good at making edges, so coyotes follow people.

Its late and I'm tired--I would be happy to post more about these papers later if there is demand.

There are lots of good citations in these papers that should lead to more data if you are inclined as to dig for it.

[This message has been edited by Dusty-n-Alaska (edited 03-19-2002).]
 
Dusty- I for one am very interested in in further comments on these matters. I will be trying to run down the cittions mentioned- but will take all the help I can get LOL

Interesting point about people. I find this intriguing, and think too that this might be part of the explanation for the dynamic increase in yote populations.....trappnman


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Your American Heritage- Fur Trapping, Hunting and Fishing
 
Hello Dusty-
I also would like to obtain/purchase as much of this info possible. So far the local library systems have nothing, including the Universities.
-Ken
 
Ken-ask about interlibrary loan. JWM and Can J Zool are widely distributed--any library should be able to get them. They are both scietific journals--most public libraries probably won't have them and may take some prodding to look for them. Can J. Zool is online, but I can't get the site to work--you may have to be a subscriber to get to arcticles, and I don't know how far back they go.

My take on Theberge and Wedeles:

The study was conducted during a snowshoe hare high and into the decline. Habitat use was assessed by track transects (total of 232.1 km). Tracks on transects and distance to a habitat change were recorded. Coyotes showed preference for open areas-foxes liked brushy. Coyotes used edges more than central areas irregardless of habitat. Foxes preferred the center of brushy habitats. Hares used edges [and liked brushy habitat] more often than centers [so coyotes prefer areas with good prey and exclude fox OR coyotes like edges and hares just happen to be there?] Hares accounted for 77.0 and 86.2% of hairs sampled from fox and coyote scat, respectively. As hare populations decreased, foxes ate fewer hares than expected while coyotes ate more than expected [as opposed to both of them eating more hares than expected during the high cycle-coyotes continue to be reliant on hares while fox switch to mice and ground squirrels].

Sargeant et al.:

Foxes and coyotes came close to each other less often than expected [avoiding each other OR just fox avoiding coyotes]. No monitored fox were killed by coyotes, and foxes "exhibited considerable tenacity" in maintaining their ranges [which somewhat overlapped coyote ranges]. However, dispersing [young] fox may avoid establishing territories inside coyote territories.

I'm sure I have butchered something in there, but that's the idea. You really need to read the arcticles to get the full effect.

My take on the whole thing? If you have lots of edges (ie, farming), you are likely to see decreasing fox populations. If there is heavy fox trapping you are likely to remove adult fox (which are capable of holding territories in the presence of coyotes) and losing fox, as juveniles have a harder time establishing territories. The presence of wolves up here may be limiting coyote populations and effectively keeping fox around. If biodiversity is decreasing (and it is almost everywhere) fox are likely to follow as coyotes dominate the areas populated by the 'good' prey species. In areas of good diversity fox may be able to hold on as they are capable of switching prey items more readily. Here is where I get lost--what happens when coyote move to prey not suitable for fox--eg, deer? Do the fox still decrease, or do they hang out in the pucker brush and eat voles? What if a highly-populated area is full of house mice and not much else--I would expect fox to be better mousers than coyotes, so maybe they hold their own or even outcompete coyotes. Pick a side--I can probably find compelling evidence to support it! Unless there are data which I have not found (and I haven't looked very hard), it looks to me like nobody knows much about what controlls the dynamics of fox-coyote interaction. Anybody up for a(nother) PhD project?
 
Hey Steve I was doing a little spring cleaning under the staircase and I found all of my ND Outdoors subsriptions dating way back to 1992. I was looking through them and came across 2 of them that you had interesting articles in. One ws in 1998 i think and it had to do with coyote and fox population and it showed a graphs of when the wildlife biologists used the airplane to count number of fox and coyote seen per hour. than you finished it off with paragraphs about mange and fox dispertion.

The second one that I looked at was one dealing with mountain lions and black bears. During your time have you ever seen a mountain lion in the wild?
 
Hi folks interesting topic. Where I live in southern Sask Canada awround 86 you would not find a coyote at all but tons of foxes. Christmas day 1989 I remember shooting my first one near town. Now we have coyotes all over and hardly ever see a fox. As you can see in the pic I posted in the photo forumb all the yotes and only I think 4 foxes.15 years ago it would of been the other way only not even 4 yotes. In 1990 I caught a fox in a trap and checked the line before work and found a dead fox I am sure killed by yotes,the hide was all ripped and partially eaten.I also have had foxes come into the call and all of a sudden stop tail right up and ears back and take off like never seen before, then I see a coyote coming,they are deffinattly scared of them.Just my 2 cents of course!!!
 
hello trapman and fellow hunters-trappers...

mabey i can give a little light on this subject..only because i have seen this action in action..here in central pa the pa game commision has stocked yotes to control the deer herd..but guess what....they failed to do so /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ..and now that the 5 year span has hit and the yote population has came up by great numbers the red fox is harder to see when i go spotlighting and calling..and i have had to change my trapping habits a great deal to have a good harvest on reds..here the red was very populated in the farming country and the grays was a thicket animal..but now i see the reds moving to the thicker spots and not where they used to be..i have been noticed a great change in the red fox since the yote has become very populated in my area..but as for the grays i really havent noticed any change in thier habits..so if i have any one to blame on the red fox decrease here in central pa its the pa game commision and not the fur market..and no that the yotes didnt do the job on the deer herd the game commision has interduced the mt.lion....boy whats next????i saw a mt.lion and took pics of it trying to get in my friends barn..and after calling the pa game commision asking if it was legal if we shoot them thier answer is(we dont have them in this state)..well my 35mm pic tells it all what did someones pet just happen to get out this day ..and when i have talked to different people where i trap there have been a few sightings by them also...oh sorry for changeing the subject but just thought i would shed some light on the game commission round here and let you guys laugh when it comes round and backfires like the yotes did...
 
What PA has for the reds is mange.The mange doesn't seem to bother the grays.In VT the reds move closer to humans to get away from the coyote.Does mange kill the coyote?I have seen red, gray and coyote caught in the same trap set.
 
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