Wolves

Thanks for the support gentleman. I too hope someday to hold a valid tag for one of these magnificant animals and I would be the first in line to purchase one. My only point was that illegal activity is never a means to an end, especially not in this case. It does nothing to ensure our hunting future but only damages it. The solution is to be involved, attend meetings, push for the de-listing and management plan and try to get the control back in our (the sportsman) hands. Why would you even risk the future of your hunting heritage with BS talk about SSS. Sorry Coyotbrains, I wont give it a rest until we are all working together to preserve what I love and the horse is far from dead. We as sportsman need to band together to be strong not divided. United we stand, divided we fall.
 
#1 Good post Mike,but what they dont tell you on the site is that the only way a rancher can get compensation for lost livestock is if a F&G employee actually sees the wolves feeding on the kill,so if you check your cattle wich are 120 miles away once a week and run a couple wolves of a dead calf,you are out of luck,there was a lso a pro wolf group that was offering to pay for losses but once again they wanted to see the wolves on the kill,they have stopped doing this since the state allowed ranchers to shoot wolves caught in the act.

#2YellowHammer the only reason we want to be able to hunt them is so we can controll thier numbers,the reintroduction is decimating the big game numbers and hunters are loosing thier chance to hunt in these areas because the elk and deer numbers are so low and as long as Wyomings Gov. keeps trying this BS lawsuit of his they will not be delisted for years,by then these elk heards will be gone and the wolves will have moved on.Its always real easy for people who will never have to deal with them to sit back and have all the awnsers.The Gov. of Wy wants them to be catagorized as a predator just like a coyote so they can be shot anytime,anywhere,the Feds will never allow this and he damn well knows it,so all he is doing is holding up thier delisting to annoy the Govt,and in the mean time the ranchers and sportsmen of these states pay the price.BTW if I shoot a wolf on my property in my familys cattle IT IS LEGAL.Just wait till they want to reintroduce them to your state,Im sure there were wolves in Texas at some time,then the feds will make you tear down all those high fences so the wolves can feed on the wild game and livestock of your state,your opinion would change in a hurry.
 
Why do you think they require verification that it was actually a wolf kill? Becuase if they didn't every calf or sheet that died would be a wolf kill. The FEMA feasco should be an idicator of how a "gimme" program can be abused.

NONYA I didn't say you would be illegal, but several expressed that they would do it whether it was legal or not.

As far as wolves in Texas go, I'm sure they were here at one time. I know the red wolf was in the eastern half of the state. As far as high fences go, it wouldn't bother me a bit if they all came down.

Lousiana black bears are a species that is getting a lot of talk around here lately, with possible reintroduction sometime in the future. If not, we are likely to get some coming in from La. as their populations there expand. That will be a similar problem.

Pennsylvania has one of the highest concentration of bears in the east, and high human density at the same time. If they can live with them, anyone can.
 
Mike here is my 2cents worth I now live in Mo but spent 35 years in Wy Mt hunting and working with livestock producers.
Granted if a calf was killed by the wolves they got market price for it at the time it was killed not what it would have been worth when it was time to sell it a big difference. As for not all wildlife was meant to be killed by a bullet is right but the numbers killed by the bullet can be managed. Wolves don't count they kill till everything is gone them move on. As for WyoSongDog he doesn't lose a dime everytime a wolf kills a calf,lamb,or foal. The ranch owners the livestock producers pay a large amount of property tax and taxes on all the equipment needed to operate with this is a lot more than the cost or a computer to sit at on the outside and preach ethics as a portion of your lively hood is killed. Yellowhammer if a band of wolves was on the King ranch killing new born foals like I have seen them do in Wy you would see a lot of SSS and the phone lines to Austin would melt.I don't know the saluation but don't sit back and judge a man for protecting his lively hood as a livestock producer. It was the ranchers that settled the areas those wolves put back in. Its the ranchers salt,mineral,and feed the deer and elk use. Its the ranchers water holes and tanks wildlife drink out of many areas would have a lot less wildlife if the ranchers hadn't improved the lands. Yellowhammer NONYA is breaking laws Mauser
 
First off Mauser you have no clue what I do or dont lose when a wolf makes a kill because you are assuming you know something about me. For all you know, my family might own the largest ranch in the state of wyoming. Even if that is not the case, I can talk about ethics because SSS is against the law. Besides, I do stand to lose something each and every time illegal behavior is condoned or allowed to happen by the very sportsman who are expected to stand against those things. My right to hunt. My right to fish. Maybe even my right to bear arms. How quick you forget those things are under attack right now and every sportsman is under a microscope. Every word you have typed here is being documented by the anti groups such as PETA, Humane Society and the like. I fully support any law that allows ranchers the right to defend their stock. What part of against the law are you struggling with Mauser. Last time I checked, the willful violation of the law in the sense we are talking, is and will always be, directly related to ethics, morals and value. Keep in mind I am not referring to a persons occasional violation of a traffic law so dont twist my words. I am not your adversary here and I want to see a wolf solution just as bad or worse than you do. Keep in mind I am a resident of Wyoming and I do hunt Elk and Deer. I just want the solution to come about the right way.
 
I never said I do or did SSS You seem to think if everyone don't agree with you they are doing it. I belive NONYA has a right to protect his livestock and under Mt. law he has that right and you just keep saying anyone that kills a wolf is breaking the law they are not. If the Governor of your state gets his way a lot more will be killed. I to have hunted Wy every year for over 35 years,the moose pop is falling so is the elk pop I never have and never will SSS. But I will not sit and judge someone who is protecting his property and lively hood. Just who is doing all this SSS you keep refering to. Mauser
 
WYSOng if your family owned a ranch in North Wes Wy you would have a whole different opinion about your "magnificent" animals,generations of ranchers and homesteaders tried to eliminate them along with the Govt because they arean unstopable predator that wipes out the game and ranch animals wherever they are.They arnt like coyotes,they take down large animals and they have to kill constantly to keep the pack alive.My GreatGrandfather was a Govt Wolf trapper/killer here in MT and made a good living doing it,that was back when our Govt gave a damn about the stock growers and hunters of our country.When the wolves have knocked the game numbers down the hunter will no longer be needed to keep thier numbers in check and we will loose our right to do so.The feds see our wildlife as food for thier wolves,nothing else.The people out here who try to make a living of thier land and thier livestock have been fighting this problem for 150 years and now the feds step in and reintroduce the problem,how is that right?How is that ethical?
 
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If you guys will actually read my posts, you will see that in each one I clearly stated that I SUPPORT NONYA"S RIGHT TO DEFEND HIS LIVESTOCK. I will say it again. I support your right to defend your property against wolves Nonya. I am against poaching. Thats what I oppose. The wolves belong here. They were here long before us. They were wiped out by our forefathers. They never deserved to be completely erradicated. No living thing deserves that. The wolf was never the problem. Man is the problem no matter how you look at it. Wolves co-existed with Elk, Deer, Moose and whatnot for thousands of years before man encroached on them and decided they had to go. Sounds like genocide to me. How is that right Nonya? How can you justify that? The Feds didnt screw up by re-introducing wolves. They screwed up when they didnt have a full plan in place to effectively deal with their current problem. I do believe they should have had some insight about a rapid population growth. The Wolves do need to be controlled. I SUPPORT THE LEGAL POPULATION CONTROL OF WOLF POPULATIONS. I cant make it any clearer for you.
 
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Who is poaching you keep saying you are against it and the SSS who are you talking about? Their is a reason why our grandfathers got rid of the wolves, along with many other problems. You keep pearching poaching,who is? I was in Big Piney for 2 weeks talked to a warden several times he never mentioned wolve poaching. If you know sone that is call the law. The facts are the wolves are costing hunters and livestock producers a lot of money and if will cost every tax payer. There is a couple of guys said if there property was in danager they would protect it are you saying they are poachers SSS people? Go out north of Casper where there are sheep kills and let those rasiers know you care and pay for a few wolf killed sheep and preach to them how ethical you are about the wolves. If you are worried about being able to keep hunting go help out the people that are getting hurt by the wovles Start a petition with a thousand signitures want to control the wolf pop Talk cheap when it's not costing you anything Mauser
 
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Jeb's right, the best way to deal with wolves is to SSS, Shoot, Shovel /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif, and Shut up, then put the tracking collar on a semi headed to New York!!!



I guess this is the type of cr-- we dont need on PM.
Giving the antis the publicity they need. These are the comments wyosongdog mentioned. Nonya and Mauser wake up dudes, your obviousely ignoring that mentality which isnt needed.
If the feds have their way the wolf re-introduction is going to continue, now....Is that going to stop? nope.
Is it going to be any easier to prove a wolf killed a ranchers interest? vs a cat, or was it natural causes.
You all have valid points. We have wolves here in Michigan, every state that has them has to deal with them eventually.
When they became to much to handle they where poisoned, will that happen again? nope.
When they are delisted then control will come back.
This day and age makes it difficult to make a step in either direction. We can only do our best to help support the "governors" that will make regualting wolves possible, hint hint. Not the ones who road block.
Someone mentioned bear populations in Pa. why i dont recall
They are having all sorts of problems with bears in Pa.,New Jersey for two examples. They completely outlawed hunting bear in New Jersey from what i understand. I think some people in their respective governments sometimes need the realization of horror in their backyards to act. sad i know
regardless this topic is about wolves not bear, UNTILL they are dragging children off their swingsets.
Same holds true for the rancher out west, The slow squeeky wheel gets the oil. Eventually.
I believe the lonestar would regret taking down their high fences if wolves where re-introduced wouldnt they Yellowhammer?, you side stepped part of your answer to nonya/ You wouldnt mind removing high fences, ok now what about packs of wolves all over your tx longhorns?
I know texas mentality and texas pride,it wouldnt be pretty for Mr. i'll huff puff blow yer house down. no sir
Probably not you personally, your a wildlife biologist. Why would you side step a question that way? kind of hypocritical EH?
I would like to see good debate, not lainbrained comments that give "OUR" real foes their bullets against us.
Locator
 
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Pennsylvania has one of the highest concentration of bears in the east, and high human density at the same time. If they can live with them, anyone can.



in relation to the earlier post i made about someone mentioning bear in Pa. I found the guy that made that statement. You havnt been hearing the eastern news reports down in your sectioned world of texas have you? The number of backyard encounters is unreal
Maybe do a GOOGLE search on New Jerseys willingness to live with bears.
nuf said,....perhaps
Locator
 
I guess I'll jump into the fray.

Wolves do kill livestock and leave them. My friend manages a ranch near Meeteetse, Wy. They had 4 adult cows killed in one night, nothing was eaten. These were confirmed wolf kills.

Some wildlife groups do pay for livestock that are killed...sometimes. First, they must be confirmed. That means you must find the animal before it's all gone (this can be a huge difficulty) and get the gov't guy out there. And you might get a check, lately they Defenders of Wildlife haven't been paying (see Wyoming Livestock Roundup). What they do NOT pay for is all the other costs. Reduced weight gains from stress, extra time and labor costs, herd genetic losses. You cannot pay a rancher the going market value for an animal and think you are truly paying for ALL the costs associated with the public's wolves.

Wolf attacks on humans are rare, but they do happen. Wolves are also killing dogs (sometimes on the porch) and horses.

I'll freely admit I don't like the idea of wolves around, we have enough trouble with grizzlys. The folks who settled these parts and killed the wolves did it for a reason.

Part of the reason for wolf introduction is an assault on ALL hunting.
 
The last sentence of your post is a pretty bold statement Ruda. Sorry, I cant even come close to agreeing with you. Mauser, you really need to go back and read ALL the posts in this thread and then maybe you would not make yourself sound so bad in your posts. There have been posts about shoot, shovel and shut up but I guess it was convenient for you to over look that. Nonya keeps jumping into the fray and trying to prove some point with me and none of my comments were ever even directed at him. I am done listening to the BS about our forefathers killed all the wolves off for a reason. Killed them ALL off being the key words. Ask yourself why. The wolf was only doing what wolves do. Being predators. So because they were predators, it was our God given right to erradicate their kind from the face of the earth? That is BS and the wolf didnt deserve that any more than Grizzlies, Black Bears, Mountain Lions, Bobcats or Coyotes deserve to be completely eliminated from existance. Coyotes kill stock too. They kill cattle, sheep and game. So do bears. So do cats. I am all for the population control of Wolves. I would love to hunt the wolf. My point is, the wolf is here to stay and they have every right to reclaim their rightful place in the wild. It is a shame that the Federal Government didnt plan for this in the beginning and we wouldnt be having this argument. As far as ranchers losing stock, well I am sorry for that. They are business men who have to over come some adversity in their chosen business. Lots of business men have to over come adversity to be successful. Its a dog eat dog world out their. Literally.
 
Instead of fighting I would like some facts or be told where to find them as follows
From the time of the reintroduction of the wolves a year by year Population stats. of the wildlife have they increased,decreased, or stayed stable?
How many wolf kills of livestock have been reported and how much money has been paid the livestock producer?
How many wolves are there?
What are the projected population growth?
Where are the wolves all located?
Who makes the decision if it is a wolf kill?
How maney people are working on the wolf problems and who are they?
How maney arrests have been made for poaching a wolf?


Get the facts out

WyoSongDog I know my friends on the ranches will sleep better knowing you are sorry for thier losses and I am sure they know about adversity as they have had to work thier way out of many Mauser
 
SongDog Ill bet dollars to donuts you are a member of one ofg the SAVE_THE_WOLF groups that are half the problem,you call yourself a hunter of big game?Well consider this,once the wolves have knocked game numbers down far enough your state will have to reduce the amount of hunters because the hunter will no longer be needed to keep them in check,how magnificent will they seem to you when they take away your hunting rights to feed thier pets?These wolves are not native,they are Canadian wolves.The wolves were never completly wiped out as you claim,I grew up seeing wolves from time to time and they were not a problem back then because thier numbers were low enough that they didnt cause ranchers many problems.You preach about them as if they were victims of the holacaust,they were removed to protect the game heards and the livestock of people who lived among them.They dumped these wolves off in the most game rich enviroment in the lower 48,yellowstone,an area that was set aside to protect the heards of game that live in that region,and now they are being decimated by thier pet project.Ill bet Teddy Roosevelt would have something to say about this project.If you are not concerned about the impact on your hunting rights that these wolves may have you should be,people in Montana are already seeing the effect,they have reduced the number of elk tags in the area north of the park to 1/4 of what they were a few years ago,thats several hundred people who wont get a chance to take an elk.These animals were never extinct and they cant exist in the numbers they have now if we want to keep our hunting heritage alive,hunters are a population control tool and with predators like these spreading through our states we wont be needed for long.
 
QUOTE WyoSongDog
"I have high hopes for this site since it came highly recommended. I recently had a bad experience on another site and I dont need anymore drama. I am looking for a site to learn a few new tricks and to share some of my experience, knowledge and experiences with others who share my passion."

You save the wolf types always show your true colors eventually. You really do love the drama and causing trouble on hunting boards is your specialty. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience but it may be more appreciated over at the sierra club or peta.
Bye.
 
Songdog,

It's bold, so what? I just can't help, but think that all the greenies would just relish the idea that some humans won't be able to hunt anymore because the wolves are doing such a good job. What about that don't you agree with?

You know I actually almost like the idea of wolves around with proper management. But I have little hope of that ever happening. When you can't shoot a wolf that is chasing your cattle (in Wyoming they have to be on private ground or state lease AND be in the act of biting or wounding) then something is wrong.

I'm sure glad no one was around to save the T-Rex.
 
Ever notice notice how when someone disagrees with you or has a different point of view they are a "bunny hugger", "save the wolf type" or "greeny"?

Nobody is changing anyones mind or attitude here.

I wasn't dodging any question put to me earlier. #1 personally I don't like high fences, and wish they would go away. #2. I doubt they would re-introduce wolves where I am since it is not wolf habitat and probably never was. #3 if I chose (with emphasis on CHOSE) to live in wolf habitat and either they were there or re-introduced I would live with it. If it was legal to shoot a wolf to protect my property I probably would. If it is legal where you are, I have no problem with that.

To come here and say you would do it regardless of the law, is irresponsible and won't be tolerated on PM. If you want to do that Fine. But keep it to yourself. You are all adults, if you break the law and get caught, you can pay the price. Just don't come here and brag about what you would do.


Wyoming Songdog had a good point earlier. Ever wonder how the elk, deer, moose and other game survived before the ranchers eradicated the wolves and mountain lions? Makes you wonder.

I hear a lot about the rancher griping about the elk coming in an eating the crops and range. Are these the same ones that complain about the wolves?
 
Yellowhammer I have not used the term "bunny hugger" save the wolf" or Greeny" I have not said to SSS or poach or said that I ever had I asked a list of questions that I though you and Mike might want to answer or tell us where to find the imformation I aked for numbers and facts not a generelization form a Government printed webb site Numbers don't lie people do As for the griping ranchers. If you where making you living in an area, you and your family have been there for years, and your feed for your livestock is been eaten up by wildlife that is owned by the state and your livestock is being killed by wolves that are turn loose, you might gripe also. Remmber these ranchers pay a lot of federal and state taxes where does your pay check come from. What are the facts? Don't the people working on this prodject keep records. I don't give a dam who likes who I want to know and a lot of other people just how much wildlife and livestock the wolves have killed since being reinterduced and how much tax money has been spent if you don't know tell where I can find out you and Mike work in these areas Mauser
 
Mauser, here you go. Should answer most of your questions.

http://www.r6.fws.gov/wolf/wk11112005.htm

I would like to remind everyone in this discussion that vehicles kill far more wildlife in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming than wolves. To date, I have not heard one hunter request we go back to horse and buggy!

When a debater can no longer hold his own with facts and logic, they resort to name calling. This is very common with the liberals. I would prefer we not sink to their level. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
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